Manchester Arena blast

[Innovindil]

29 minutes ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

This makes for bleak, but interesting reading:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/24/emergency-planner-manchester-heal-terror-hurts

Are you trying to tell me that these "I <3 my chemical romance" flags are pre-planned? 

 

That's some shite planning right there. 

[Guest MattP]

41 minutes ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

This makes for bleak, but interesting reading:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/24/emergency-planner-manchester-heal-terror-hurts

It's realism at least, if depressing.

 

I have to say I'm finding the reaction to the whole thing a bit weird, in all likelihood this is "the new normal" - but some people almost seem to be enjoying it, you get the feeling on the fringes people like Katie Hopkins are loving it, more attention and the chance to say something outrageous whereas some on the left see it as a chance to flash their virtue to the World, there was a disturbing "vigil" in Birmingham where "refugees welcome" banners were unfurled - http://www.westmonster.com/open-borders-activists-use-birmingham-vigil-to-push-agenda/

 

I watched a bit of the vigil in Manchester and one guy had driven there in his purple Everton shirt and said the people of Liverpool knew what the people of Manchester were going through, clearly a reference to Hillsbrough. (that famous Islamist terror attack).

 

It's seems to be an open hijacking of public grief, I really don't understand it at all. All the "we are not afraid" stuff is a total nonsense in reality - had someone let a firework go off near any of this things you would have a huge stampede.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

Its an absolute disgrace if people are going to accept ****ers blowing us up in our own country as the new normal. It will make people boil inside until they explode and the explosion wont be good because innocent good people will end up involved. This is why serious, unprecedented action needs to be taken.

 

The left have blood on their hands and for every piece of terrorist apologising they do they get even more.

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Its an absolute disgrace if people are going to accept ****ers blowing us up in our own country as the new normal. It will make people boil inside until they explode and the explosion wont be good because innocent good people will end up involved. This is why serious, unprecedented action needs to be taken.

 

The left have blood on their hands and for every piece of terrorist apologising they do they get even more.

 

What exactly, do you suggest as a response? I know you've made one or two points, but please be more specific. What do you think the UK government should do. Be as exacting as you can, if you'd be so good.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said:

Its an absolute disgrace if people are going to accept ****ers blowing us up in our own country as the new normal. It will make people boil inside until they explode and the explosion wont be good because innocent good people will end up involved. This is why serious, unprecedented action needs to be taken.

 

The left have blood on their hands and for every piece of terrorist apologising they do they get even more.

Oh do fvck off would you. Anyone with half a brain on every part of the political spectrum knows the only people responsible for these attacks are the evil cvnts who perpetrate them and, by and large, that's who most on all sides have been condemning in as public a way as they possibly can. Seeking to point score politically in the aftermath of this is nothing short of shameful.

 

Don't @ me with a few examples of extremist weirdos and claim they speak for an entire political ideology by the way please, it's a waste of both our times.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

What exactly, do you suggest as a response? I know you've made one or two points, but please be more specific. What do you think the UK government should do. Be as exacting as you can, if you'd be so good.

I think that the 3000 people being monitored are a risk. In my opinion you don't get monitored for nothing you must have done something wrong. This should included people watching following etc. ISIS propaganda.

1. Non British Nationals should be deported to their home country regardless of their human rights there who gives a ****

2. Radical Clerics should be deported or left to rot in solitary confinement

3. British Nationals who leave the country to fight in Syria/Iraq/Libya etc. should never be allowed back, their identity here should be destroyed.

4. British Nationals identified as a risk should be left to rot confinement

 

We must send a clear message. We will not tolerate vermin in our society who wish to blow up our children.

[Rincewind]

The way I read it is that Muslim taxi drivers offered help and the second part says this sikh also offered help. A bit confusing in how the pictures are arranged with the text. But I agree would have been better to simply say something like Manchester taxi drivers rally together to help children.

It is times like this that people of different faiths and non faiths come together to offer support and that is all we need to know.

[leicsmac]

Just now, Foxin_mad said:

I think that the 3000 people being monitored are a risk. In my opinion you don't get monitored for nothing you must have done something wrong. This should included people watching following etc. ISIS propaganda.

1. Non British Nationals should be deported to their home country regardless of their human rights there who gives a ****

2. Radical Clerics should be deported or left to rot in solitary confinement

3. British Nationals who leave the country to fight in Syria/Iraq/Libya etc. should never be allowed back, their identity here should be destroyed.

4. British Nationals identified as a risk should be left to rot confinement

 

We must send a clear message. We will not tolerate vermin in our society who wish to blow up our children.

 

 

Thank you.

 

So...you have absolute trust in the authorities to monitor and get the right people with zero mistakes, and would support both the suspension of due process of the law in certain cases and the suspension of citizenship (in itself something of a can of worms.)

 

Where do you stand on the burden of proof (leading to the consequences you describe) regarding the four points above?

[leicesterlad1989]

5 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

I think that the 3000 people being monitored are a risk. In my opinion you don't get monitored for nothing you must have done something wrong. This should included people watching following etc. ISIS propaganda.

1. Non British Nationals should be deported to their home country regardless of their human rights there who gives a ****

2. Radical Clerics should be deported or left to rot in solitary confinement

3. British Nationals who leave the country to fight in Syria/Iraq/Libya etc. should never be allowed back, their identity here should be destroyed.

4. British Nationals identified as a risk should be left to rot confinement

 

We must send a clear message. We will not tolerate vermin in our society who wish to blow up our children.

What I'd like to know is what constituted a "risk" in the eyes of those monitoring them? Why are these people monitored in the first place?

I am sure they monitor people who they think are risky and get it wrong. So surely we can't just let those rot too?

 

I am pretty certain they have to gather substantial evidence before being able to carry out an arrest, let alone chuck them away to rot.

 

It's a very tricky and difficult situation we as a nation face. I am glad it's not down to me to make those sorts of decisions.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

 

Thank you.

 

So...you have absolute trust in the authorities to monitor and get the right people with zero mistakes, and would support both the suspension of due process of the law in certain cases and the suspension of citizenship (in itself something of a can of worms.)

 

Where do you stand on the burden of proof (leading to the consequences you describe) regarding the four points above?

 

1 hour ago, leicesterlad1989 said:

What I'd like to know is what constituted a "risk" in the eyes of those monitoring them? Why are these people monitored in the first place?

I am sure they monitor people who they think are risky and get it wrong. So surely we can't just let those rot too?

 

I am pretty certain they have to gather substantial evidence before being able to carry out an arrest, let alone chuck them away to rot.

 

It's a very tricky and difficult situation we as a nation face. I am glad it's not down to me to make those sorts of decisions.

Quite frankly if a few dubious people get locked up or deported I would rather that than have teenagers bleeding to death and losing limbs at a pop concert.

 

Obviously this is just my view. We have tried other methods and they don't work.

[leicesterlad1989]

5 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

 

Quite frankly if a few dubious people get locked up or deported I would rather that than have teenagers bleeding to death and losing limbs at a pop concert.

 

Obviously this is just my view. We have tried other methods and they don't work.

I don't even know what other methods have been used. So far I've just seen a repeated cycle where nothing appears to be changing.

 

A lot of laws would need to change in order for your methods to be carried out though.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

 

Quite frankly if a few dubious people get locked up or deported I would rather that than have teenagers bleeding to death and losing limbs at a pop concert.

 

Obviously this is just my view. We have tried other methods and they don't work.

 

I think if you sentence people without due process/conclusive proof, then you're crossing a very dangerous line and one of the lines that separates us from the ones who did the killing (of course, there are others, but that's a sizeable one).

 

That's just my view also.

[bovril]

3 hours ago, Dr The Singh said:

Then why use the the word muslim, why not say taxi driver, instead of xxxxreligion taxi driver.

 

As a Sikh I find that disturbing, we are Sikh, not muslim, not hindu or Jedi etc......if my religion isnt important, no need to mention it.  Feel sorry for the cabby who wears a sikh truban, keeps a visual sikh identity, to show the world he is sikh, gets called a mulsim.

 

If Cosmo have done what they have done, thye have because they wanted more attention and putting Muslim in it, definitely would do that!

Exactly, that's what I was getting at, his religion doesn't come into it and I don't see why it was mentioned in the first place.

[Matt]

.

[surrifox]

3 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

I think that the 3000 people being monitored are a risk. In my opinion you don't get monitored for nothing you must have done something wrong. This should included people watching following etc. ISIS propaganda.

1. Non British Nationals should be deported to their home country regardless of their human rights there who gives a ****

2. Radical Clerics should be deported or left to rot in solitary confinement

3. British Nationals who leave the country to fight in Syria/Iraq/Libya etc. should never be allowed back, their identity here should be destroyed.

4. British Nationals identified as a risk should be left to rot confinement

 

We must send a clear message. We will not tolerate vermin in our society who wish to blow up our children.

I have some sympathy with acting against these .Shelter and asylum was provided on the basis that life was too dangerous in these countries but we know of some radicalised individuals who are constantly returning even to places like Afghanistan where the threat is surely higher now given the breakdown in civil society - unless you're under the protection of the jihadists of course.

[Guest MattP]

I really hope he reported him. 

 

 

[yorkie1999]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

Exactly, that's what I was getting at, his religion doesn't come into it and I don't see why it was mentioned in the first place.

Course it doesn't come into it, but it's fairly obvious what the message is behind it. The implication is that just because the bloke is of the same religion, don't lump him with terrorism, and whether we like it or not, or attempt to deny that racist elements in our society exist, there's going to be an underlying racist feeling and attitude to whats gone on in manchester, and this taxi driver probably knows that.

[Foxxed]

Just saw the Metros headline about 'they kill our young children'. Evoking anger about a horrific event seems irresponsible especially the pronoun 'they' - who is the Metro helping except their own circulation?

[Foxxed]

3 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I think if you sentence people without due process/conclusive proof, then you're crossing a very dangerous line and one of the lines that separates us from the ones who did the killing (of course, there are others, but that's a sizeable one).

 

That's just my view also.

We call ourselves civilised because of the rules we abide by, and the values they spring from.

 

If terrorism makes us ignore our laws and values in favour of unchained force and lawless targeting it destroys our civilisation - we revert to the barbarism we fight.

[Guest]

What the **** is going on with the yanks constantly leaking information to their press? First the name of the attacker and now pictures of parts of the device. Hopefully trump's hand holder may will give him hell over it but somehow i doubt it. There should be a real diplomatic showdown over it. They leaked the name before our police wanted it in the public domain. 

[MPH]

6 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

Its an absolute disgrace if people are going to accept ****ers blowing us up in our own country as the new normal. It will make people boil inside until they explode and the explosion wont be good because innocent good people will end up involved. This is why serious, unprecedented action needs to be taken.

 

The left have blood on their hands and for every piece of terrorist apologising they do they get even more.

 

What the fookity fook are you on about?

 

I'd definitely say im right leaning, but you, Sir, do NOT speak for me!

[MPH]

26 minutes ago, toddybad said:

What the **** is going on with the yanks constantly leaking information to their press? First the name of the attacker and now pictures of parts of the device. Hopefully trump's hand holder may will give him hell over it but somehow i doubt it. There should be a real diplomatic showdown over it. They leaked the name before our police wanted it in the public domain. 

 

 

So twice then over one incident?

 

 

Hardly 'constantly leaking information', is it?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

So twice then over one incident?

 

 

Hardly 'constantly leaking information', is it?

I'm clearly talking about this incident. You don't think us sharing info with their intelligence services and it then turning up in their papers - when we have purposely not released it publically - isn't a problem? Or are you too busy being pedantic over foxestalk posts to consider it?

[leicsmac]

59 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

We call ourselves civilised because of the rules we abide by, and the values they spring from.

 

If terrorism makes us ignore our laws and values in favour of unchained force and lawless targeting it destroys our civilisation - we revert to the barbarism we fight.

 

Exactly. And moreover us doing that is the only way that they might actually end up winning (though tbh in such a situation everyone would likely lose) - by reducing the whole thing to a barbaric brawl where the only rule is that of the guys with the biggest guns and the biggest numbers.

 

8 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

So twice then over one incident?

 

 

Hardly 'constantly leaking information', is it?

 

Probably not, but first with the Israelis getting annoyed about the whole laptop info thing getting shared and now this, perhaps there needs to be at least a little word regarding future discretion at high level intelligence sharing, yes?

[MPH]

54 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Exactly. And moreover us doing that is the only way that they might actually end up winning (though tbh in such a situation everyone would likely lose) - by reducing the whole thing to a barbaric brawl where the only rule is that of the guys with the biggest guns and the biggest numbers.

 

Probably not, but first with the Israelis getting annoyed about the whole laptop info thing getting shared and now this, perhaps there needs to be at least a little word regarding future discretion at high level intelligence sharing, yes?

I believe that's already happened