Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, KingGTF said:

 

And similar could be levelled at you. Funny how you like a cartel inflating prices (wages) by restricting the labour market.

 

Edit: for the record I believe there is a place for trade unions but I'm not sure how best to deal with them

Restricting the labour market? Surely voting for brexit does that?

 

14 minutes ago, MattP said:

Many, leaving the EU was the main one, refusing to do what every banker and big business told m as I felt we could get a better deal out of it, not to mention trying to bring the wages of the poorest up by having restriction on unskilled immigration, although don't always assume strikes are "people against business", if the public sector strikes for a higher wage it's the people in the private sector who will have to foot the bill for it and pay the price of seeing those services close down for the day whilst they are doing it. Won't bother the wealthiest on society who can pay for private treatment and doctors etc

 

Another one that springs to mind is the recent tube driver strike in London, here was industrial action where people on a picket line earning 60k a year were shutting down a network mainly used by the lowest paid to get around London and go about their daily life, it didn't bother those who could afford to take taxis.

 

Far too simplistic to claim these things are "the people" v "big business" but I can see why you would persist with it as it's good for PR, the reality is different though.

Tbf i did find tube drivers on 60k striking ridiculous but don't know the ins and outs. I don't think the government should intervene wherever possible. There are a self few jobs where it isn't legal to strike but beyond that i could live with low caps but the idea of over 50% of a workforce voting when the result is clear and then having a second requirement that, whatever the % of staff voting, the overall % of staff voting for strike must be over 40% is a frightful injustice for working people. Those % were chosen to make it really hard to get legal strikes at a time when government policies have attacked ordinary workers. 

[Kopfkino]

9 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Restricting the labour market? Surely voting for brexit does that?

 

 

Well yes obviously... or no because the act of voting Brexit has no impact on the labour market in itself. But that's all irrelevant. A trade union is a cartel of workers, using a monopoly to coerce employers. If government has a role in fighting monopolist practices in business, it also has a role of fighting monopolist actions in the labour market. A turnout threshold sort of does that in so far as at least it ensures power isn't concentrated in the hands of just 10% of a union.

[Buce]

Pay cap lifted for Police and Prison Officers:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41241295

 

1.7%? An absolute joke. Insulting. 

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

Pay cap lifted for Police and Prison Officers:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41241295

 

1.7%? An absolute joke. Insulting. 

Better than nothing i guess but should be about 5% really.

[Buce]

Meanwhile, inflation rises to 2.9%. 

 

So that's actually a pay cut for the screws and coppers then. 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41238822

[Guest MattP]

So the so-called austerity plan is being ripped up before we've even got close to a budget surplus then.

 

We deserve exactly what is coming to us in 20-25 years time.

[Strokes]

If people want to strike for better conditions/pay I've no problem with that. I do think it's time many public sector jobs got an inflation busting payrise, we need to loosen the purse strings and create a wave of good feeling to take everybody's negative minds off brexit anyway. Good news only here please.

[Strokes]

10 minutes ago, MattP said:

So the so-called austerity plan is being ripped up before we've even got close to a budget surplus then.

 

We deserve exactly what is coming to us in 20-25 years time.

Brexit is more important, we need it to be a success.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

Brexit is more important, we need it to be a success.

I completely agree.

[Innovindil]

10 minutes ago, Strokes said:

If people want to strike for better conditions/pay I've no problem with that. I do think it's time many public sector jobs got an inflation busting payrise, we need to loosen the purse strings and create a wave of good feeling to take everybody's negative minds off brexit anyway. Good news only here please.

The trouble with that is inflation is possibly going to settle over the next couple of years, no point in spaffing your load early when it could be a golden carrot come election time. 

[Strokes]

48 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

The trouble with that is inflation is possibly going to settle over the next couple of years, no point in spaffing your load early when it could be a golden carrot come election time. 

The election might be this time next year if they dont.

[Guest]

Meanwhile, not content with overriding parliamentary scrutiny via its brexit bill henry xiii measures, the tories are now trying to change committeemake up to avoid proper scrutiny of any other legislation. This really is low.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41225056

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

The trouble with that is inflation is possibly going to settle over the next couple of years, no point in spaffing your load early when it could be a golden carrot come election time. 

If they wait 5 years then offer something it'll be too late. It probably is already but if they give 4 years of decent rises they might be able to pull back a few votes from those that think money is more important that public services. Not that you'll find many public servants who do think that. 

[Strokes]

10 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Meanwhile, not content with overriding parliamentary scrutiny via its brexit bill henry xiii measures, the tories are now trying to change committeemake up to avoid proper scrutiny of any other legislation. This really is low.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41225056

 

 

Yeah im not a fan of that, they are going to end up losing any parliamentary support, the cynic in me makes me think thats what they want. Then they can watch brexit fall apart and blame the opposition. Hmmm

[Strokes]

10 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Not that you'll find many public servants who do think that. 

Thats a good one 

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Thats a good one 

Im sure they do exist but I'd assure you that the majority do care about giving the public the best possible services. 

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

Im sure they do exist but I'd assure you that the majority do care about giving the public the best possible services. 

Over lining there own pockets? I doubt it.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Over lining there own pockets? I doubt it.

Plenty of us could have got equivalent jobs paying more in the private sector but haven't. 

[Strokes]

35 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Plenty of us could have got equivalent jobs paying more in the private sector but haven't. 

There are plenty of places I could work at for better money, it doesn't mean I care more about the service offered than my own ends.

[Buce]

15 minutes ago, Strokes said:

There are plenty of places I could work at for better money, it doesn't mean I care more about the service offered than my own ends.

 

Isn't that called judging others by your own standards?

 

I doubt that many teachers entered the profession for the money. 

[Strokes]

Just now, Buce said:

 

Isn't that called judging others by your own standards?

 

I doubt that many teachers entered the profession for the money. 

No it's not called judging by your own standards, it's not the only piece I base it on. I know of lot people who work in the public sector and most will tell you how virtuous they are if you ask them but if you watch them, then it appears they are no more so than the rest of us. 

Maybe you two are judging by your own standards  

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

No it's not called judging by your own standards, it's not the only piece I base it on. I know of lot people who work in the public sector and most will tell you how virtuous they are if you ask them but if you watch them, then it appears they are no more so than the rest of us. 

Maybe you two are judging by your own standards  

Well, i do set the bar pretty high 

[Guest]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/12/theresa-may-multiple-rebellions-eu-withdrawal-bill-conservative-mps

 

Theresa May will face multiple rebellions over her EU withdrawal bill next month, as Conservative MPs table amendments aimed at softening the government’s Brexit plan. Tory MPs will challenge the use of Henry VIII powers, call for a vote on the final terms of Brexit and demand the retention of the charter of fundamental rights.

Nine Conservative MPs, including Nicky Morgan, Dominic Grieve and Anna Soubry, are backing a series of changes, raising the possibility of defeats for the prime minister.

In a challenge to their leader’s Brexit plan, the rebel MPs want to ensure the UK retains the EU’s charter of fundamental rights and require that a final deal with the EU be approved by parliament.

Rebels include Ken Clarke, Antoinette Sandbach, Stephen Hammond, Sarah Wollaston, Jeremy Lefroy and Robert Neill, meaning May would only have the slimmest of majorities.

Curbing Henry VIII powers – which allow ministers to amend EU legislation when it is transposed into UK law without a parliamentary vote and detailed scrutiny – is likely to cause May more difficulties.

These amendments are backed by normally loyal Tory MPs, such as John Penrose, Vicky Ford and Tom Tugendhat. It is understood a number of hardline Brexit supporters are expected to back some amendments, meaning May is likely to be forced into making a concession.

Penrose, who is on the committee of the European Research Group (ERG) of Tory backbenchers, which includes dozens of the party’s most ardent Brexiters, said: “The current draft of the repeal bill gives lots of power to ministers so we can deliver Brexit, which is essential, but it cuts parliament’s role right down.

“If Brexit is supposed to take back control of our laws, it’s pretty hard to argue that the small number of genuinely important and substantive changes should simply be waved through parliament without thorough debate.”

Although other ERG members are supporting May’s legislation, some have privately expressed support for Penrose’s position, with one senior figure telling the Guardian they had not campaigned for Brexit in order for it to turn into a “power grab”. 

The government won an early-hours vote on the second reading of the bill, which seeks to bring EU laws and regulations into British statute, by 326 votes to 290, with a handful of Labour MPs defying orders to oppose the measures.

However, 157 amendments to the EU withdrawal bill, covering 59 pages, have already been published so far, with those tabled by backbenchers likely to receive the most cross-party support at the next stage of its Commons journey. The bill is likely to return to parliament for further scrutiny by MPs after party conferences in October.

A number of opposition backbenchers have tabled amendments aimed at guaranteeing the rights of EU citizens in the UK and forcing parliamentary votes on the UK staying in the single market via the European Economic Area and the customs union, among other issues.

The Labour frontbench has also tabled its own series of amendments to strip away sections of the bill that the party says grant ministers sweeping and arbitrary powers.

Those tabled by Labour include plans to strip out the bulk of the Henry VIII powers, including deleting a clause which lets ministers amend any legislation affected by Brexit by decree.

The shadow Brexit secretary, Keir Starmer, said it would be quicker for the government to start the bill all over again.

He said: “Instead, she [May] has adopted her normal blinkered approach and forced through a bill that will need extensive amendment and improvement in a whole range of areas.

“This is likely to cause delays and division in parliament, and the prime minister has nobody to blame but herself.”

Overnight, May had claimed a significant Brexit victory after the votes and abstentions of more than a dozen Labour MPs helped her attain a majority of 36.

The prime minister called it a “historic decision to back the will of the British people” and said the vote would give clarity and certainty through the Brexit process.

“Although there is more to do, this decision means we can move on with negotiations with solid foundations and we continue to encourage MPs from all parts of the UK to work together in support of this vital piece of legislation,” she said. 

[Captain...]

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2017/09/11/brilliant-jacob-rees-mogg-takedown-wish-wed-written/

 

A fair point on JRMs Christian values, on phone so can only link.

[TheyCallMeMrCarbohydrate]

4 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Isn't that called judging others by your own standards?

 

I doubt that many teachers entered the profession for the money. 

Teachers? Are you having a laugh?! I thought it was common knowledge that plenty of graduates finish their degrees and have no idea what to do next. Money is exact why many go into teaching. Those that can do...