Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

Strokes has left the thread (part II): Return of the Strokes (PG)

It's not my fault you are too old to understand the joke buce. 

[Buce]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

It's not my fault you are too old to understand the joke buce. 

 

Well whose fault is it then?

 

[Steven]

Theresa May's friends going on a reconnaissance mission before the 9/11 attacks. Has she published that report yet. I thought not. 

 

Saudi Arabia government ‘funded dry run' for 9/11, legal documents claim

Two Saudi nationals and government employees tested flight deck security on internal flight

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/911-saudi-government-embassy-dry-run-hijacks-lawsuit-cockpit-security-a7938791.html

[Buce]

Eiropeans needn't apply:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/11/no-europeans-need-apply-growing-evidence-discrimination-uk-brexit

[Innovindil]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

Eiropeans needn't apply:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/11/no-europeans-need-apply-growing-evidence-discrimination-uk-brexit

While they're at it can they investigate that bus company that was hiring only Polish nationals. The name escapes me but it was reported a few months back. 

 

Equality, in theory, should work both ways. 

[Kopfkino]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41229806

 

Again he says one thing and then hours later his PR team corrects his **** up. It's almost as if his new, honest politics bullshit is exactly that.

[Guest MattP]

18 minutes ago, KingGTF said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41229806

 

Again he says one thing and then hours later his PR team corrects his **** up. It's almost as if his new, honest politics bullshit is exactly that.

Just listened to this, how strange.

 

I'm starting to wonder if he even understands the situation, it doesn't appear he does.

 

It might just be incompetence and lack of knowledge on the issue rather than dishonesty.

[Kopfkino]

11 minutes ago, MattP said:

Just listened to this, how strange.

 

I'm starting to wonder if he even understands the situation, it doesn't appear he does.

 

It might just be incompetence and lack of knowledge on the issue rather than dishonesty.

 

I think on one hand you're doing him a disservice and on the other having too much faith in his integrity.

 

He knows exactly what he's doing when he does this. He gets the sound bites and people listen because Jezza said it and then someone else corrects it, people don't take much notice. There's an element of confirmation bias, those that follow comrade Corbyn listen to his direct quotes, people wanting Brexit listen to the spokesperson's correction because that's what they want to hear. 

It's like his student pledge. He knew exactly how his words would be interpreted but left it open to backtrack because he knee in the first place not much could be done.

 

He is in or around the top 10 longest serving MPs. He knows how Westminster and politics works as well pretty much anyone. Now he's been trained how to deal with the media, he's using all that experience.

 

Actually fair play to him I say

[Guest MattP]

If it is deliberate then yeah, fair play to him, it takes talent and balls to manage to trick people but I still can't quite picture Corbyn as a expert in prestidigitation.

 

If it is I'm sure it's the people around him, I'm convinced he still doesn't understand how the single market or the customs union works, whenever he's asked a question on it he tries to get away from the intricacies of it immediately. 

Edited 11 September 2017 by MattP

[Guest]

I think labour, correctly, really can't tie themselves to a position atm. They have to go down a line that maximises opportunities for britain. They aren't the government so that's fine. Reality is that the Tories are playing the same game. They talk tough on hard brexit but every single leak suggests it's just talk. 

[davieG]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

I think labour, correctly, really can't tie themselves to a position atm. They have to go down a line that maximises opportunities for britain themselves They aren't the government so that's fine. Reality is that the Tories are playing the same game. They talk tough on hard brexit but every single leak suggests it's just talk. 

....and they all do it because they all belong to this

 

 

[davieG]

This guy doesn't beat about the bush

 

 

[Guest]

I'm sorry for linking anther guardian piece matty. For the record, the guardian is not the left wing version of the daily mail, or even close. I don't post guardian pieces to tell you what to think - i post them simply to encourage debate. It's just a starting point. 

 

Here, for example, unions are asking for 5% public sector pay increases at a cost of £9bil per year. I fully expect the government to look at public sector pay but it is in a difficult position as it can't get even close to the union figure without raising questions about austerity (and it won't try). If a public sector wide strike occurred though, things could get very difficult for the government - think winter of discontent. 

 

Tbh imho the tories have asked for this - austerity cost us growth which could have been used to deal with public sector funding (not just wages) many moons ago.

 

I will admit bias here as my wages have been kept down by austerity over the last 7 years, with real terms cuts year in year out, causing me to go from debt free to significantly indebted. Before anybody says it - no, i haven't bought loads of new things or gone on holidays. Rent, tax, utilities, petrol and food have all gone up much faster than public sector wages.

 

Unions demand 5% pay rise for all public sector staff

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/sep/11/unions-demand-5-pay-rise-for-all-public-sector-staff?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

[Strokes]

53 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I'm sorry for linking anther guardian piece matty. For the record, the guardian is not the left wing version of the daily mail, or even close. I don't post guardian pieces to tell you what to think - i post them simply to encourage debate. It's just a starting point. 

 

Here, for example, unions are asking for 5% public sector pay increases at a cost of £9bil per year. I fully expect the government to look at public sector pay but it is in a difficult position as it can't get even close to the union figure without raising questions about austerity (and it won't try). If a public sector wide strike occurred though, things could get very difficult for the government - think winter of discontent. 

 

Tbh imho the tories have asked for this - austerity cost us growth which could have been used to deal with public sector funding (not just wages) many moons ago.

 

I will admit bias here as my wages have been kept down by austerity over the last 7 years, with real terms cuts year in year out, causing me to go from debt free to significantly indebted. Before anybody says it - no, i haven't bought loads of new things or gone on holidays. Rent, tax, utilities, petrol and food have all gone up much faster than public sector wages.

 

Unions demand 5% pay rise for all public sector staff

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/sep/11/unions-demand-5-pay-rise-for-all-public-sector-staff?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

If you want me to participate in the debate could you copy the article into your post, I won't click the link.

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, toddybad said:

I think labour, correctly, really can't tie themselves to a position atm. They have to go down a line that maximises opportunities for britain. They aren't the government so that's fine. Reality is that the Tories are playing the same game. They talk tough on hard brexit but every single leak suggests it's just talk. 

I can't believe you are serious here, the idea that the opposition, the potential party of government shouldn't take a position on the biggest parliamentary decision in our lifetime is absurd. 

 

Of course they have to take a position - they need to finally decide and then stick to it.

 

The Tories are not playing the same game at all, nothing has changed in what they seek from the original speech at Lancaster house.

[Izzy]

24 minutes ago, Strokes said:

If you want me to participate in the debate could you copy the article into your post, I won't click the link.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, MattP said:

I can't believe you are serious here, the idea that the opposition, the potential party of government shouldn't take a position on the biggest parliamentary decision in our lifetime is absurd. 

 

Of course they have to take a position - they need to finally decide and then stick to it.

 

The Tories are not playing the same game at all, nothing has changed in what they seek from the original speech at Lancaster house.

Only one party is in the negotiations. Labour have obviously had talks but they cannot affect the way the real negotiations go. Where Labour would go if it got into government would partially depend on where things are. How on earth can they say they would definately do x, y or z when they don't know and can't influence the talks? Don't be ridiculous. I don't see that they can say thst much tbh though i will concede that they need to stop with the mixed messages between starmer and corbyn.

 

If you really, truly believe that what was said in that speech was what the tory party are united behind then i can only presume you believe in father christmas, the easter bunny and the book of genesis.

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Strokes said:

If you want me to participate in the debate could you copy the article into your post, I won't click the link.

Union leaders are demanding a 5% pay increase for all public sector workers and threatening co-ordinated strike action against the government’s pay cap.

Amid growing expectation that the cap will be lifted soon for police and prison officers, representatives of 13 unions agreed at the TUC conference that money needed to be found to retain and reward millions of nurses, teachers, council staff and civil servants.

Delegates also disclosed that three public sector unions were planning to canvass members over coordinated strike action. A pay increase of 5% would cost £9bn, according to union sources.

The government is expected to accept the recommendations of pay review bodies for the police and prison service, which are due to report soon – a move that would increase pressure for real-terms rises for other public sector staff.

Labour is preparing to force a vote on the pay cap in parliament on Wednesday.

Mark Serwotka, head of the PCS union, which represents civil servants, made a passionate plea for an end to pay restraint during a debate at the annual congress in Brighton.

“We have a weak government with no mandates to implement further public sector pay restraint and now is the time not just for resolution but for the action required to defeat this government pay cap and put real-terms pay increases in the pockets of our members,” he said.

"We know concessions are coming, we know they [ministers] are going to cherry-pick, they are going to attempt to divide and rule. Our message is simple: scrap the cap. We all deserve a pay rise.”

Serwotka said every public sector worker deserved a raise of at least 5% to keep up with inflation and make up for increases in national insurance and pension contributions. “There are no deserving or undeserving public sector workers,” he said.

The PCS is balloting all of its members on industrial action, a move being followed by the Prison Officers Association and the University and College Union.

“Wouldn’t it be great if we could have coordinated ballots in the run-up to the budget,” Serwotka said.

The Unison general secretary, Dave Prentis, also spoke in favour of the 5% demand. “We’ve seen years of brutal austerity and vicious attacks on public services, overseen by an uncaring government whose pay policies are causing real hardship,” he said.

“In the first six years of Conservative rule, public sector pay rose by just 4.4% yet the cost of living soared by 22%, and to rub salt into those wounds, the pay of top bosses rose by a third in one year alone.

“Whilst the rich feather their nests, public service workers struggle to afford the basics. The government calls it prudence and restraint. I call it inhuman. We must commit to marching, demonstrating and lobbying, not just in Westminster but in Belfast, Cardiff and Edinburgh too.”

The NASUWT teachers union said the average pay award for teachers last year was 0.6%.

A national rally on the issue will be held in Westminster in October and the TUC will seek a meeting with the chancellor, Philip Hammond.

Other unions supporting the 5% motion include the Royal College of Midwives, GMB, Unite, the Society of Radiographers and the FDA.

Labour has already committed its support for an end to the pay cap and Jeremy Corbyn is expected to voice his support for union action to lift the restriction when he appears before the congress on Tuesday. 

On Sunday the shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, pledged Labour’s support for workers who strike over the policy. He told union activists that the party’s senior figures would join strikers on picket lines if they took on the government against a policy that has led to a 14% real-terms cut in wages over the past seven years. 

The defence secretary, Michael Fallon, said last week that the government understood that civil servants, teachers, health workers and council staff had taken their “share of the pain” of deficit reduction, and indicated that the chancellor was looking at the issue.

[Innovindil]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

I'm sorry for linking anther guardian piece matty. For the record, the guardian is not the left wing version of the daily mail, or even close. I don't post guardian pieces to tell you what to think - i post them simply to encourage debate. It's just a starting point. 

 

Here, for example, unions are asking for 5% public sector pay increases at a cost of £9bil per year. I fully expect the government to look at public sector pay but it is in a difficult position as it can't get even close to the union figure without raising questions about austerity (and it won't try). If a public sector wide strike occurred though, things could get very difficult for the government - think winter of discontent. 

 

Tbh imho the tories have asked for this - austerity cost us growth which could have been used to deal with public sector funding (not just wages) many moons ago.

 

I will admit bias here as my wages have been kept down by austerity over the last 7 years, with real terms cuts year in year out, causing me to go from debt free to significantly indebted. Before anybody says it - no, i haven't bought loads of new things or gone on holidays. Rent, tax, utilities, petrol and food have all gone up much faster than public sector wages.

 

Unions demand 5% pay rise for all public sector staff

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/sep/11/unions-demand-5-pay-rise-for-all-public-sector-staff?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

Any chance you'd be willing to post how much you get paid? It's fine if you don't want to no pressure.

 

I just personally find it difficult to understand how some of these people are struggling so bad on the wages they're on. There was that report a few weeks a go that said 1 in 10 police officers said they couldn't afford essentials. Not luxuries, literally essential items they need for survival. How is that even possible when the starting wage is £19k~/year? That is significantly higher than my minimum wage brother/PT minimum wage sister-in-law, yet they get by fine.

 

I'm not saying you don't deserve a payrise, or the police, or anybody for that matter. Just struggle to see how people "live within their means" and can't afford essentials on such wages, wages that are generally higher than the private sector.

[bovril]

Hey @Strokes seen this link thought you'd like it. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/sep/11/sexy-pics-of-sexy-ladies-click-this-link-to-win-1-gazillion-pounds

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Only one party is in the negotiations. Labour have obviously had talks but they cannot affect the way the real negotiations go. Where Labour would go if it got into government would partially depend on where things are. How on earth can they say they would definately do x, y or z when they don't know and can't influence the talks? Don't be ridiculous. I don't see that they can say thst much tbh though i will concede that they need to stop with the mixed messages between starmer and corbyn.

 

If you really, truly believe that what was said in that speech was what the tory party are united behind then i can only presume you believe in father christmas, the easter bunny and the book of genesis.

Political party are supposed to take politicsl positions, the Tories have a position on Brexit, the SNP do, the Greens do, the Lib Dems do, everyone does and none of them have been as ridiculous as Labour changing position more times than most people change their underpants, not being able to influence the negotiation isn't an excuse to prevaricate for votes.

 

As for the last line, we'll find out in about 90 minutes won't we? I'd be surprised if any Tory rebelled against the bill, they are far more united than people think.

[Guest]

Just now, Innovindil said:

Any chance you'd be willing to post how much you get paid? It's fine if you don't want to no pressure.

 

I just personally find it difficult to understand how some of these people are struggling so bad on the wages they're on. There was that report a few weeks a go that said 1 in 10 police officers said they couldn't afford essentials. Not luxuries, literally essential items they need for survival. How is that even possible when the starting wage is £19k~/year? That is significantly higher than my minimum wage brother/PT minimum wage sister-in-law, yet they get by fine.

 

I'm not saying you don't deserve a payrise, or the police, or anybody for that matter. Just struggle to see how people "live within their means" and can't afford essentials on such wages, wages that are generally higher than the private sector.

I'm not going to post my salary no.

I will say i get paid above the national average.

I guess everybody's position is different. I don't have a partner to share costs so that clearly doesn't help. 

7 years ago i had no debt. The debt accrued initially - and this is true - to cover the high cost bills of council tax and car insurance. I have cut back my lifestyle hugely over those 7 years and literally can't remember when i went out on the piss or went to a decent restaurant - it hasn't happened im those 7 years.  Over time the debt grew on basics but the debt itself became a huge issue. I'm at the point where i genuinally don't think i can ever get out of the debt and I'll never be able to pay into the pension or own my own home. Clearly this all impacts upon my politics quite heavily.

I'll be fair and say that the public sector cap isn't 100% to blame for this. Although i literally spend next to nothing on anything, one or two unavoidable costs i have don't help but the underlying fact is we get **** all thanks pay wise whilst being expected to do more and more with less and less. That is pretty much how the entire public sector currently feels. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, MattP said:

Political party are supposed to take politicsl positions, the Tories have a position on Brexit, the SNP do, the Greens do, the Lib Dems do, everyone does and none of them have been as ridiculous as Labour changing position more times than most people change their underpants, not being able to influence the negotiation isn't an excuse to prevaricate for votes.

 

As for the last line, we'll find out in about 90 minutes won't we? I'd be surprised if any Tory rebelled against the bill, they are far more united than people think.

The tories are voting it through holding their noses. Tories have been talking to journos all over the place. Wait til it hits the committees. For what it's worth, this bill should be defeated. 

[Strokes]

12 minutes ago, bovril said:

Hey @Strokes seen this link thought you'd like it. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/sep/11/sexy-pics-of-sexy-ladies-click-this-link-to-win-1-gazillion-pounds

What link?

[bovril]

Just now, Strokes said:

What link?

This one:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/sep/11/Silva-finally-ready-to-make-Leicester-debut