Guest Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 3 hours ago, MattP said: I've mentioned this before but Brexiteers need to put trade right at the forefront of arguments, way ahead of migration. There is huge support for us to be doing our own trade deals with the World and very little support for remaining tied to the Customs Union if it blocks us from doing the former. Please keep making this point, it resonates. But we don't need to do our own trade deals in the EU. I'd rather there was just honest debate. Doesn't seem possible though, too many years of myths thing unchallenged.
Guest MattP Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 2 minutes ago, toddybad said: But we don't need to do our own trade deals in the EU. I'd rather there was just honest debate. Doesn't seem possible though, too many years of myths thing unchallenged. How does Britain do a trade deal with the USA now then if our government wanted to? Give us the facts and some honest debate.
Guest MattP Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 Daily Politics is sensational today, Andrew Neil is absolutely tearing two of the worst politicians I've seen to bits
Guest MattP Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 17 minutes ago, toddybad said: I have no doubt whatsoever that less than about 10% of those asked even understand the first question. The question is literally set out as clear as it can be, you just don't like it because when it's explained to people properly they take the leave position rather than remain so you have to resort to insulting them. It's a bit tragic really.
Guest Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 1 minute ago, MattP said: The question is literally set out as clear as it can be, you just don't like it because when it's explained to people properly they take the leave position rather than remain so you have to resort to insulting them. It's a bit tragic really. Do I just don't think most people would honestly understand the options. Which the results of the second question suggests is quite likely.
Webbo Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 2 minutes ago, toddybad said: Do I just don't think most people would honestly understand the options. Which the results of the second question suggests is quite likely. So would you be against a second referendum?
Guest Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 5 minutes ago, MattP said: How does Britain do a trade deal with the USA now then if our government wanted to? Give us the facts and some honest debate. We've got all sorts of trade deals via the EU. We would work with our EU partners to make a deal with the US. The one previously offered wasn't good enough and was rightly scrapped. On our own we'd be so desperate we'd take anything. I can't understand why you would think the fantastic opportunity to start again with no trade deals is better than having lots. I genuinely trust the EU to put citizens first above the tory party.
Guest MattP Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 1 minute ago, toddybad said: We've got all sorts of trade deals via the EU. We would work with our EU partners to make a deal with the US. The one previously offered wasn't good enough and was rightly scrapped. On our own we'd be so desperate we'd take anything. I can't understand why you would think the fantastic opportunity to start again with no trade deals is better than having lots. I genuinely trust the EU to put citizens first above the tory party. That's a pretty big call given the austerity that has been forced on Southern Europe and the masses of unemployment that it has had a hand in creating, fair play though for your honesty. This is the fundamental difference though, I want my government to do the trade deals it wants to do, you want our government to do the trade deals the EU will let them do, that's exactly why the leave side wins this debate over and over again. What are the myths going unchallenged you mentioned?
Guest Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 4 minutes ago, MattP said: That's a pretty big call given the austerity that has been forced on Southern Europe and the masses of unemployment that it has had a hand in creating, fair play though for your honesty. This is the fundamental difference though, I want my government to do the trade deals it wants to do, you want our government to do the trade deals the EU will let them do, that's exactly why the leave side wins this debate over and over again. What are the myths going unchallenged you mentioned? The myths going unchallenged are primarily around migration. I haven't ever seen remainer s explain WHY immigration is good for the economy and, therefore, ordinary people's lives. The negatives are obvious and well known and have been heralded by the right for the last 20 years. The positives have never really been properly explored. By not doing so for so long, and not even trying to do so beyond a cursory nod to immigration being good during the referendum campaign, the cause was lost. Whilst immigration wasn't the only reason for the vote, it was a much bigger reason than is being claimed now. It was pretty much farage's response to every question.
Strokes Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 22 minutes ago, toddybad said: The myths going unchallenged are primarily around migration. I haven't ever seen remainer s explain WHY immigration is good for the economy and, therefore, ordinary people's lives. The negatives are obvious and well known and have been heralded by the right for the last 20 years. The positives have never really been properly explored. By not doing so for so long, and not even trying to do so beyond a cursory nod to immigration being good during the referendum campaign, the cause was lost. Whilst immigration wasn't the only reason for the vote, it was a much bigger reason than is being claimed now. It was pretty much farage's response to every question. UKIP peaked at just over 3 million votes, Nigel Farages reach was a small fraction of the vote to leave.
Guest Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Strokes said: UKIP peaked at just over 3 million votes, Nigel Farages reach was a small fraction of the vote to leave. Don't be daft. Far more voted on the ref than vote in normal elections. His views gradually became mainstream as nobody ever bothered to properly pull them apart. Those views are also propogated by the sun, mail and express. Edited 7 February 2018 by Guest
Webbo Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 2 minutes ago, toddybad said: Don't be daft. Far more voted on the ref than vote in normal elections. His views gradually became mainstream as nobody ever bothered to properly pull them apart. Those views are also propogated by the sun, mail and express. You quote The Guardian on an almost daily basis and believe every word. Are you sure it's not you who's been brainwashed?
Guest Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 Just now, Webbo said: You quote The Guardian on an almost daily basis and believe every word. Are you sure it's not you who's been brainwashed? I post select Guardian articles to draw debate. I've criticised certain aspects of the Guardian and supported others. You'll have noticed over the months we've shared disagreeing that I tend to have multiple sources of evidence to hand.
Webbo Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 1 minute ago, toddybad said: I post select Guardian articles to draw debate. I've criticised certain aspects of the Guardian and supported others. You'll have noticed over the months we've shared disagreeing that I tend to have multiple sources of evidence to hand. So sometimes you post The Independent?
Strokes Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 10 minutes ago, toddybad said: Don't be daft. Far more voted on the ref than vote in normal elections. His views gradually became mainstream as nobody ever bothered to properly pull them apart. Those views are also propogated by the sun, mail and express. I’m not being daft, you are overplaying his impact, if he had that much appeal he would not have been shunned by the official campaign and he would be an elected MP.
Guest Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 3 minutes ago, Webbo said: So sometimes you post The Independent? We've had discussions on health, the economy, jobs, wages etc etc etc and I've provided ons graphs, academic research papers etcetera. The newspaper articles start a debate, we then have to go away and research what the truth is.
Guest Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 1 minute ago, Strokes said: I’m not being daft, you are overplaying his impact, if he had that much appeal he would not have been shunned by the official campaign and he would be an elected MP. Farage is rather sidetracking us from the key point. Can you tell me what arguments the remain campaign gave to explain the positive impact of immigration?
Strokes Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 9 minutes ago, toddybad said: Farage is rather sidetracking us from the key point. Can you tell me what arguments the remain campaign gave to explain the positive impact of immigration? They didn’t, they preferred to attempt to shut it down by calling any opposing arguments racist. As has been the case for 25 years or more. 1
Guest MattP Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 57 minutes ago, toddybad said: The myths going unchallenged are primarily around migration. I haven't ever seen remainer s explain WHY immigration is good for the economy and, therefore, ordinary people's lives. The negatives are obvious and well known and have been heralded by the right for the last 20 years. The positives have never really been properly explored. By not doing so for so long, and not even trying to do so beyond a cursory nod to immigration being good during the referendum campaign, the cause was lost. Whilst immigration wasn't the only reason for the vote, it was a much bigger reason than is being claimed now. It was pretty much farage's response to every question. So why bring up myths about migration when the argument was about trade? Doesn't make any sense. I actually thought the Remain side did try to emphasise that, although the problem was they couldn't really find an arugment against it's effect on the lowest paid, even the chairman of the Remain campaign said something along the lines of the poorest would get a pay rise if immigration numbers fell, that's for another argument though. @Strokes makes a great point though - you can't really complain about not having a debate on immigration when those same people spend decades shutting it down with cries of "racist".
leicsmac Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 11 minutes ago, Strokes said: They didn’t, they preferred to attempt to shut it down by calling any opposing arguments racist. As has been the case for 25 years or more. And that was a mistake. Playing the man not the ball has hardly ever been a winning political strategy - one of the reasons Trump won too IMO. 1
Guest Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 5 minutes ago, MattP said: So why bring up myths about migration when the argument was about trade? Doesn't make any sense. I actually thought the Remain side did try to emphasise that, although the problem was they couldn't really find an arugment against it's effect on the lowest paid, even the chairman of the Remain campaign said something along the lines of the poorest would get a pay rise if immigration numbers fell, that's for another argument though. @Strokes makes a great point though - you can't really complain about not having a debate on immigration when those same people spend decades shutting it down with cries of "racist". I can complain. I haven't been shouting that. I have no doubt there's an element of that bit there's also plenty of room for real debate. I can absolutely complain that 25 years of negativity was never properly taken on and led to widespread belief that migration is a huge negative. We have unemployment at 4% (with my usual caveat regarding incap recipients). The country is prosperous precisely because lots of people came to work. It allowed productivity to increase through increased manpower. There are more supervisory and management jobs because there are more people in employment. Self employed people have more work because there are more people needing work done. There are negatives too, I don't dismiss those at all as I have quite a balanced view in relation to migration. It clearly does put pressure on society and public services in other ways, though immigrants also work in those public services. Regarding trade, I just think the leave argument is pie in the sky and wasn't attacked as such enough. It could happen as promised, but is highly unlikely. During the campaign vote leave promised the EU would be running to sign a deal on our terms. Now it claims everybody knew it would be difficult bit claims huge bonuses exist around every corner. It's pure fantasy at the moment.
Guest Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 And as vote leave director cummins said Pundits and MPs kept saying ‘why isn’t Leave arguing about the economy and living standards’. They did not realise that for millions of people, £350m/NHS was about the economy and living standards – that’s why it was so effective. It was clearly the most effective argument not only with the crucial swing fifth but with almost every demographic. Even with UKIP voters it was level-pegging with immigration. Would we have won without immigration? No. Would we have won without £350m/NHS? All our research and the close result strongly suggests No. Would we have won by spending our time talking about trade and the Single Market? No way.
Strokes Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 27 minutes ago, MattP said: So why bring up myths about migration when the argument was about trade? Doesn't make any sense. I actually thought the Remain side did try to emphasise that, although the problem was they couldn't really find an arugment against it's effect on the lowest paid, even the chairman of the Remain campaign said something along the lines of the poorest would get a pay rise if immigration numbers fell, that's for another argument though. @Strokes makes a great point though - you can't really complain about not having a debate on immigration when those same people spend decades shutting it down with cries of "racist". Tbf to @toddybad he Is usually fair on migration debate.
Guest MattP Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 11 minutes ago, Strokes said: Tbf to @toddybad he Is usually fair on migration debate. Definitely, I certainly wasn't referring to him, he's a free speech champion and would rather debate anything than shut it down.
Innovindil Posted 7 February 2018 Posted 7 February 2018 Personally think the whole investment/productivity vs migration debate is a lot like the chicken and the egg. If I was running a big company, I don't think I'd be investing potentially millions of pounds to raise productivity when a simple job advertisement in Poland could get you all the low paid workers you'd need. At least that's what I saw at the argos warehouse a few years back. No need to work out better ways to do the work when you can get as many people as you need on £7.50/hr.
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