Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[UpTheLeagueFox]

A Holocaust denier and a leading member of Militant during its takeover of Liverpool council are among a first wave of expelled hard-left activists who have been readmitted to the Labour Party, it can be revealed today.

A leak from Labour headquarters shows the extent of the resurgent left’s control over the party after recent elections to its governing body, where Momentum candidates won a “clean sweep” of new positions.

Activists have been allowed to rejoin despite still belonging to organisations “proscribed” by Labour — including a Trotskyist group, the Alliance for Workers’ Liberty. Others stood against Labour for hard-left parties as recently as 2016.

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-welcomes-back-banned-activists-and-holocaust-denier-ggv6s3vkn

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

A Holocaust denier and a leading member of Militant during its takeover of Liverpool council are among a first wave of expelled hard-left activists who have been readmitted to the Labour Party, it can be revealed today.

A leak from Labour headquarters shows the extent of the resurgent left’s control over the party after recent elections to its governing body, where Momentum candidates won a “clean sweep” of new positions.

Activists have been allowed to rejoin despite still belonging to organisations “proscribed” by Labour — including a Trotskyist group, the Alliance for Workers’ Liberty. Others stood against Labour for hard-left parties as recently as 2016.

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-welcomes-back-banned-activists-and-holocaust-denier-ggv6s3vkn

Said it before and say it again; one thing the hard-left and right have in common is their attitude towards Judaism.

[UpTheLeagueFox]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Said it before and say it again; one thing the hard-left and right have in common is their attitude towards Judaism.

All extremism is a very bad thing.

[Buce]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Said it before and say it again; one thing the hard-left and right have in common is their attitude towards Judaism.

 

I disagree with that, Mac.

 

The Hard-Right have a problem with Judaism, (some of) the Hard Left have a problem with Israel and Zionism. I appreciate the difference may seem subtle but it is a difference, nonetheless.

[Guest MattP]

Just now, leicsmac said:

Said it before and say it again; one thing the hard-left and right have in common is their attitude towards Judaism.

Yep, spot on. What is incredible over here though is some people still don't think Labour have a problem with anti-semitism, despite all what has gone on the leadership still share platforms with people like this just a couple of days ago  - https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-shares-platform-with-controversial-student-leader-malia-bouattia-1.458229

 

I don't believe Corbyn himself hates Jews (some of his inner circle though I think do), but I'm certain he's happy to let it thrive if it means criticism of Israel becomes mainstream.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

I disagree with that, Mac.

 

The Hard-Right have a problem with Judaism, (some of) the Hard Left have a problem with Israel and Zionism. I appreciate the difference may seem subtle but it is a difference, nonetheless.

Do you think sharing photos on social media of Israel moving to the USA under the line of "problem solved" or pictures of people with big noses and money draped in the Star of David are anti-semitic or anti-zionist? Do you think Naz Shah (a serving MP) should be kicked out of the Labour party for doing the above?

 

Are you comfortable with Jeremy Corbyn praising organisations which call for the destruction of Israel and Jews from the Middle East? (Hamas, Hezbollah) - or him speaking at events to celebrate the Iranian revolution that hangs gays from cranes and subjucates women?

 

Genuinely interested.

 

[Alf Bentley]

7 minutes ago, MattP said:

Classic Mail. The Lib Dems do seem to be having a quiet revival, without really saying anything, I still maintain they had the best manifesto at the last election, problem  is I couldn't vote for them on the basis of Brexit.

 

They wouldn't admit it obviously, but surely there is deep concern in Labour circles that they can't establish a big lead (or even a lead it appears) over this current government, which I'll admit it's absolutely awful.

 

Maybe some voters are taking the possibility of Corbyn winning an election more seriously and a few anti-Tory voters are switching from Labour to the Lib Dems?

I'd guess a significant minority voted Labour at the election as an anti-Tory vote, despite not being keen on Corbyn - but being secure in the knowledge that he couldn't win....may no longer be the case?

Might just be the margin of error in the polls, or memories of the dreadful Tory campaign fading from the memory, or a drift towards Lib Dems because of their Remainer stance....though I doubt it's the latter.

 

Anyway, I'd expect a lot more volatility in the polls later this year. Although political obsessives like us lot can see that a lot is ongoing re. Brexit and other issues, for most voters with only a superficial interest, nothing much is happening: economy fairly flat but nothing disastrous, Brexit negotiations ongoing but apparently successful so far etc.

 

You'd expect all the cabinet sackings and infighting in the Tory party to have helped Labour more in the polls. Maybe there's also an element of "don't change the captain during challenging times" (though that contradicts what I've said above).

 I doubt that Corbyn's crew worry much about the polls, having made up so much ground during the last election campaign - but they certainly cannot rely on such an awful Tory campaign next time, so need to seize the agenda more. They could still triumph on the old principle that "oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them"....I struggle to see how the Tories are going to avoid a civil war over Brexit or do a deal with the EU that both wings can live with.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

All extremism is a very bad thing.

There's a reason Tolkien wrote Morgoth not as a being of light, dark or whatever, but a being of extremis.

 

He saw, first hand, what the extremes can do when they gain control of power.

 

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I disagree with that, Mac.

 

The Hard-Right have a problem with Judaism, (some of) the Hard Left have a problem with Israel and Zionism. I appreciate the difference may seem subtle but it is a difference, nonetheless.

I don't want to pull the tankie card here but the Soviet Union had their pogroms, just as Hitler had his camps. You might make an argument about him not being hard-left, but quite frankly it seems to me that authoritarianism of any kind like that seems to view Judiasm as a threat and a boogeyman, for a variety of reasons.

 

Today you might draw the distinction between your run-of-the-mill liberal who wants justice for Palestine and Israel to stop being a bloody fool and the hardcore tankies who view it the same way Stalin did, but the latter still do exist.

 

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Do you think sharing photos on social media of Israel moving to the USA under the line of "problem solved" or pictures of people with big noses and money draped in the Star of David are anti-semitic or anti-zionist? Do you think Naz Shah (a serving MP) should be kicked out of the Labour party for doing the above?

 

Are you comfortable with Jeremy Corbyn praising organisations which call for the destruction of Israel and Jews from the Middle East? (Hamas, Hezbollah) - or him speaking at events to celebrate the Iranian revolution that hangs gays from cranes and subjucates women?

 

Genuinely interested.

 

1

TBH Matt as long as we are in bed with the Saudis (who do as much or worse to women and gays than the Iranians do) I'm not entirely sure Corbyn can be called out on Iran without the caller looking like a hypocrite.

[Buce]

10 minutes ago, MattP said:

Do you think sharing photos on social media of Israel moving to the USA under the line of "problem solved" or pictures of people with big noses and money draped in the Star of David are anti-semitic or anti-zionist?

 

Both.

 

I wouldn't attempt to argue that many in the 'Hard Left' are not equally as fascist as those they claim to oppose. It's why I qualified my statement with the word 'some'.

 

10 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

 

Do you think Naz Shah (a serving MP) should be kicked out of the Labour party for doing the above?

 

After due process, yes. Absolutely.

 

10 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

Are you comfortable with Jeremy Corbyn praising organisations which call for the destruction of Israel and Jews from the Middle East? (Hamas, Hezbollah) - or him speaking at events to celebrate the Iranian revolution that hangs gays from cranes and subjucates women?

 

Genuinely interested.

 

 

What Mac said.

[Buce]

10 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

I don't want to pull the tankie card here but the Soviet Union had their pogroms, just as Hitler had his camps. You might make an argument about him not being hard-left, but quite frankly it seems to me that authoritarianism of any kind like that seems to view Judiasm as a threat and a boogeyman, for a variety of reasons.

 

I thought we were speaking of individuals, not regimes of either persuasion.

 

Extreme Right wing political thought is undoubtedly anti-semitic, whereas at the same time it is supportive of the Israeli state (probably an allegiance of convenience because of the current hatred displayed towards Islamic nations).

 

10 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

Today you might draw the distinction between your run-of-the-mill liberal who wants justice for Palestine and Israel to stop being a bloody fool and the hardcore tankies who view it the same way Stalin did, but the latter still do exist.

 

Of course they still exist which is why I qualified my statement with the word 'some'. However, I do still have friends who are 'old lefties' from the Militant Tendancy days, and they are most certainly not anti-semitic (two of them are Jews themselves).

 

 

[Guest]

Worst ever NHS performance against 4 hr waiting time confirmed. Look at the state of this graph.

 

 

[leicsmac]

22 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I thought we were speaking of individuals, not regimes of either persuasion.

 

Extreme Right wing political thought is undoubtedly anti-semitic, whereas at the same time it is supportive of the Israeli state (probably an allegiance of convenience because of the current hatred displayed towards Islamic nations).

 

 

Of course they still exist which is why I qualified my statement with the word 'some'. However, I do still have friends who are 'old lefties' from the Militant Tendancy days, and they are most certainly not anti-semitic (two of them are Jews themselves).

 

 

That's fair, and I did notice that you didn't generalise.

 

There is something of a dichotomy in both the echelons of the left and right regarding Judaism: as well as a common enemy in Islam, some of the conservative Christian right are big into Zionism because the Bible speaks of Jews being in their Holy Land when the Second Coming arrives. Contrast that with some of the more hardcore Protestant factions and the alt-right atheists who can't stand them.

 

It's certainly a very nuanced issue.

[Strokes]

2 hours ago, Rogstanley said:

 

Still waiting for anyone to give me a reason why they voted brexit that is nothing to do with the economy.

Plenty of reasonable answers have been given over the last two years but you won’t listen and will still say we are thick racists. So what is the point in engaging with anything serious?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

Plenty of reasonable answers have been given over the last two years but you won’t listen and will still say we are thick racists. So what is the point in engaging with anything serious?

The only real non immigration answer is taking back control (given that trade is economic). 

 

It's obviously your view. And I obviously can't understand why you'd prefer writing your own laws in a poor country to accepting a part in writing laws governing some elements of a rich one.

 

Not much point going over old ground tbh.

 

 

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

The only real non immigration answer is taking back control (given that trade is economic). 

 

It's obviously your view. And I obviously can't understand why you'd prefer writing your own laws in a poor country to accepting a part in writing laws governing some elements of a rich one.

 

Not much point going over old ground tbh.

 

 

I don’t think we will be poor, just not as wealthy for a relatively short period of time. What’s the point of being a wealthy country when so many people are poor? What does the EU do to promote or help with wealth distribution that you support? You hate austerity, the EU has forced a member to undergo some of the harshest austerity ever known. The only people getting the big economic benefits are the rich, the bankers the CEOs etc. Why do you care about the EU? 

[Carl the Llama]

2 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Well, people are happy to pay extra taxes. Makes sense to do it this way. 

I feel like this is only true when the team a person supports is in power, for instance I have little doubt that a labour government would be met with accusations of stealing your hard earned money for the same thing happening all else being equal.

[Carl the Llama]

2 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Daft phone

Edited 8 February 2018 by Carl the Llama

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I don’t think we will be poor, just not as wealthy for a relatively short period of time. What’s the point of being a wealthy country when so many people are poor? What does the EU do to promote or help with wealth distribution that you support? You hate austerity, the EU has forced a member to undergo some of the harshest austerity ever known. The only people getting the big economic benefits are the rich, the bankers the CEOs etc. Why do you care about the EU? 

It's up to our government to implement policies that redistribute wealth.

I care about the effects of leaving on a generation. Even if we could somehow make up the difference, it is going to take 10, 20, or more years to build up trade deals with the world. That's a hell of a lot of my life and my daughter's life that will be negatively affected. I see no positives in this whatsoever.

[purpleronnie]

Don't worry Brexitiers I'm sure eventually a report will come out showing a positive impact of Brexit and you all can believe that one.

 

As for immigration just reading about Germanys 28 hour week pay increases and Germany’s economic boom last year where the economy grew at its fastest rate since 2011 and unemployment is at its lowest since reunification in 1990.

 

All those millions of immigrants Germany got over the past few years have really destroyed it.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I feel like this is only true when the team a person supports is in power, for instance I have little doubt that a labour government would be met with accusations of stealing your hard earned money for the same thing happening all else being equal.

I'd happily pay more if the government came out and was honest about why it needs more income.

 

The issue I have is the Tories cutting then forcing (there really is no alternative) councils to raise the taxes so the Tories can try to evade blame and an honest debate.

Edited 8 February 2018 by Guest

[Guest MattP]

11 minutes ago, purpleronnie said:

Don't worry Brexitiers I'm sure eventually a report will come out showing a positive impact of Brexit and you all can believe that one.

 

As for immigration just reading about Germanys 28 hour week pay increases and Germany’s economic boom last year where the economy grew at its fastest rate since 2011 and unemployment is at its lowest since reunification in 1990.

 

All those millions of immigrants Germany got over the past few years have really destroyed it.

They already have, EFB are closer than any official body.

 

Germany now has a far-right opposition due to these policies and you celebrate it?

 

I honestly don't know what to say

[Strokes]

14 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I'd happily pay more if the government came out and was honest about why it needs more income.

 

The issue I have is the Tories cutting then forcing (there really is no alternative) councils to raise the taxes so the Tories can try to evade blame and an honest debate.

Not going to mention Greece then?

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

After due process, yes. Absolutely.

Well she had that and she remained. What does that tell you about the Labour party? 

 

Maybe someone will finally speak up when Galloway rejoins?

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

TBH Matt as long as we are in bed with the Saudis (who do as much or worse to women and gays than the Iranians do) I'm not entirely sure Corbyn can be called out on Iran without the caller looking like a hypocrite.

@Buce as well as I forgot to quote him.

 

"In bed" with might sound good as a criticism, but in reality it means little. Show me a country in the World that doesn't trade with Saudi Arabia. If Theresa May was holding rallies in Hyde Park celebrating the Saudi I'd understand your point.

 

I find your opinion a bit strange on this given you want to talk to North Korea. 

 

Can you show me a government minister who has of his or her own accord spoke up in favour and celebrated a regime that does these things? 

 

Please don't forget Corbyn did this at his own accord, his own choice whilst on the backbenches. He didn't only condone them. He celebrated them.

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Maybe some voters are taking the possibility of Corbyn winning an election more seriously and a few anti-Tory voters are switching from Labour to the Lib Dems?

I'd guess a significant minority voted Labour at the election as an anti-Tory vote, despite not being keen on Corbyn - but being secure in the knowledge that he couldn't win....may no longer be the case?

Might just be the margin of error in the polls, or memories of the dreadful Tory campaign fading from the memory, or a drift towards Lib Dems because of their Remainer stance....though I doubt it's the latter.

 

Anyway, I'd expect a lot more volatility in the polls later this year. Although political obsessives like us lot can see that a lot is ongoing re. Brexit and other issues, for most voters with only a superficial interest, nothing much is happening: economy fairly flat but nothing disastrous, Brexit negotiations ongoing but apparently successful so far etc.

 

You'd expect all the cabinet sackings and infighting in the Tory party to have helped Labour more in the polls. Maybe there's also an element of "don't change the captain during challenging times" (though that contradicts what I've said above).

 I doubt that Corbyn's crew worry much about the polls, having made up so much ground during the last election campaign - but they certainly cannot rely on such an awful Tory campaign next time, so need to seize the agenda more. They could still triumph on the old principle that "oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them"....I struggle to see how the Tories are going to avoid a civil war over Brexit or do a deal with the EU that both wings can live with.

Great analysis and a good read as always.

 

I think there is a massive thing in the "he couldn't win" vote - one of my closest friends leans your way and he's expressed doubt about voting for him again as he has a pension/house/job etc.

 

I'd love to be inside the Labour now and know the thinking, from the outside or looks so strange - the Tory government is in turmoil and the real opposition to groups like Momentum seem to be moderate Labour councillors. 

 

This will sound ridiculous but if I were the Conservatives I want to lose councils in London in May, watch Momentum take over these places and then point to it as an example of the wider party, when you look at what's happened in Haringey long term it could be worthwhile. 

 

Momentum and the mob could actually save this horrific Tory government.