Webbo Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 2 minutes ago, toddybad said: I'm not sure you've got my views quite right there. Both tory terms since Thatcher have led to demonstrably bad outcomes for society. I've said numerous times that the Blair government was one of the most successful ever as it coupled rising affluence with huge improvements in public services. In terms of capitalism, it's neo-liberalism that I've been most critical of. I don't have an issue with a softer capitalism but the capatalism running rampant model is a terrible stain on humanity. Money is considered more important than people. I want business to be successful and for markets to operate. But I want public services to be run publicly, without a profit motive. Transport and energy should absolutely be owned and run by the state. That doesn't stop somebody like Webbo running his business at all. I also an unhappy with the logic of low tax, low spend. Ultimately low spend leads to bad outcomes and if it is only low spend because people have to pay for services themselves, and those services are run privately (think £12000 train again tickets) then I am clearly opposed. I recognise that the EU is a capitalist club but I'm not particularly concerned so long as we are able internally to utilise the benefits for the good of our people. That's the point at which my criticisms of successive Tory governments begins. And yet you voted against Labour in 2010? What if I was a doctor and I wanted to set up in private practice? What if I was a qualified bus driver who owned a bus and thought I could offer a service better and cheaper than the state? Why shouldn't those people be allowed to set up any business they wanted?
RumbleFox Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 1 minute ago, Rogstanley said: I don’t know, did Jesus’ disciples feel patronised? Sometimes people do need to be taught. It was a simple request and proved a point, if only in my own mind. I’m happy to leave it there if people are getting frustrated. OK. Well I disagree that you proved any point but maybe I don't understand and, if so, fair enough. Also, are you comparing yourself to Jesus? Och, rational debate is good I just think sometimes us "lefties" should be willing to listen to the "other side". It is a strength, not a weakness to try and walk in another person's shoes. It won't harm your lefty credentials to listen to a dirty Tory bastrd now and then. X 1
Webbo Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 2 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: I don’t know, did Jesus’ disciples feel patronised? Sometimes people do need to be taught. It was a simple request and proved a point, if only in my own mind. I’m happy to leave it there if people are getting frustrated. you've gone from poor man's moosebreath to jesus now.
Guest Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Webbo said: Why wouldn't there be the will to have clean beaches? The same reason the EU are having to take the government to court over its failure to keep our air breathable. London hit the legal limit for annual air pollution something like a week into this year yet the government hasn't produced any sort of legitimate plan. Edited 8 February 2018 by Guest
leicsmac Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 7 minutes ago, RumbleFox said: Yeah. I think the sad truth is that people see an argument as "winning or losing" which is silly really. Some arguments are about consciousness raising, creating a debate, seeing things from different sides. It is not always about "I win, you lose". Although, you know, I have won this. X Of course it isn't, but some people seem to not be able to fight the hardwiring in their system that says that all of life is a competition and if you're not beating the Other Guy over the head with words or deeds you're not doing it right. 6 minutes ago, Webbo said: Why wouldn't there be the will to have clean beaches? Of course there should be, but the fact is that often there isn't. And that goes for a lot of other environmental concerns, too. 1
Webbo Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 Just now, toddybad said: The same reason the EU are having to take the government to court over its failure to keep our air breathable. London hit the legal limit for annual air pollution something like a week into this year yet the government hasn't produced any sort of legitimate plan. What would you do then, ban cars? London is one of the most over crowded cities in the world. This is why decisions should be made in this country by people who understand the situation, not someone from a rural part of Romania.
Guest Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 3 minutes ago, Webbo said: And yet you voted against Labour in 2010? What if I was a doctor and I wanted to set up in private practice? What if I was a qualified bus driver who owned a bus and thought I could offer a service better and cheaper than the state? Why shouldn't those people be allowed to set up any business they wanted? I'm not convinced that anybody has suggested primary care or bus services come back inner direct control, though I take your point. Primary care would be better off under direct control, may I add. The current system sees GPs refuse to do anything if there isn't twenty quid in it for them. And I've answered the 2010 question, from you, directly, about 20 times.
Rogstanley Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 1 minute ago, RumbleFox said: OK. Well I disagree that you proved any point but maybe I don't understand and, if so, fair enough. Also, are you comparing yourself to Jesus? Och, rational debate is good I just think sometimes us "lefties" should be willing to listen to the "other side". It is a strength, not a weakness to try and walk in another person's shoes. It won't harm your lefty credentials to listen to a dirty Tory bastrd now and then. X I’m 55% dedicated to winding up Webbo, MattP and strokes on this thread rumble me old cocker. Stick around long enough and you’ll see why. I think you already had a taste of webbo’s debating style the other day lol. Don’t worry, it’s all in good spirits and they give as good as they get. And yes I did just compare myself to Jesus. 1
Guest Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 1 minute ago, Webbo said: What would you do then, ban cars? London is one of the most over crowded cities in the world. This is why decisions should be made in this country by people who understand the situation, not someone from a rural part of Romania. I think you need to do some research. I've answered your other question very nicely but on this issue you're talking bollocks.
Webbo Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 Just now, toddybad said: I think you need to do some research. I've answered your other question very nicely but on this issue you're talking bollocks. Well how would you cure the clean air thing? We can't just ban cars from London. What's the alternative?
RumbleFox Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 1 minute ago, Rogstanley said: I’m 55% dedicated to winding up Webbo, MattP and strokes on this thread rumble me old cocker. Stick around long enough and you’ll see why. I think you already had a taste of webbo’s debating style the other day lol. Don’t worry, it’s all in good spirits and they give as good as they get. And yes I did just compare myself to Jesus. How shall we **** off, oh Lord? X
Rogstanley Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 3 minutes ago, Webbo said: What would you do then, ban cars? London is one of the most over crowded cities in the world. This is why decisions should be made in this country by people who understand the situation, not someone from a rural part of Romania. London is absolutely nowhere near one of the most overcrowded cities in the world.
Guest Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Webbo said: Well how would you cure the clean air thing? We can't just ban cars from London. What's the alternative? Hold your horses. Just because you aren't expert in something doesn't mean solutions couldn't be found by those that are. All the government was required to do was come up with a reasonable plan. It has failed to do so. It couldn't give a stuff. It is rightly being taken to court both in the UK and in the EU. Edited 8 February 2018 by Guest
Webbo Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 2 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: London is absolutely nowhere near one of the most overcrowded cities in the world. Hmm, seems like you're right. Maybe you are Jesus.
Buce Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 57 minutes ago, RumbleFox said: So basically you asked people what their reasons were, they told you and then you chose not to believe them because you think they are not strong enough? I agree with you that they are not strong reasons but I disagree with your claim that it is impossible for anyone to believe they are strong reasons. Why doubt what people say? Some people feel so strongly about, for example, "British values" that they would be willing to vote for something which would help them reclaim that without even thinking about economics. Now I think they would be foolish and incorrect to do so but I would believe that they meant it. What are these 'British values'? How does leaving the EU 'reclaim' them?
RumbleFox Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 Just now, Buce said: What are these 'British values'? How does leaving the EU 'reclaim' them? Lord knows.
Buce Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 Just now, RumbleFox said: Lord knows. You have no idea what they are yet you are prepared to accept someone could believe them to be 'strong 'reasons'? Sounds a bit too right on for my liking.
Innovindil Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 And I'm sat here just waiting for us to leave the EU so I can start genetically modifying a pumpkin to try and make it sentient by Halloween. 2
RumbleFox Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Buce said: You have no idea what they are yet you are prepared to accept someone could believe them to be 'strong 'reasons'? Sounds a bit too right on for my liking. I can't think of any that would convince me personally but I am not really nationalistic in any way at all but are you saying that no one in Britian thinks that "British values are being eroded"? Seems an odd viewpoint to me because you hear it all the time. Just because we don;t agree with them it does not mean that people don't genuinely believe it. I mean, some people like Mick Hucknall which to to me is worse than murder 'n' that but I cannae tell people that like him they don;t really like him. X Edited 8 February 2018 by RumbleFox
Buce Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 Just now, RumbleFox said: I can't thin of any that would convince me personally but I am not really nationalistic in any way at all but are you saying that no one in Britian thinks that "British values being eroded"? Seems an on viewpoint to me because you hear it all the time. Just because we don;t agree with them it does not mean that people don't genuinely believe it. I mean, some people like Mick Hucknall which to to me is worse than murder 'n' that but I cannae tell people that like him they don;t really like him. X What I'm seeking is a definition of 'British values'. Without one, how can we have an opinion on whether it is a valid belief that they are being eroded?
RumbleFox Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Buce said: What I'm seeking is a definition of 'British values'. Without one, how can we have an opinion on whether it is a valid belief that they are being eroded? I disagree. I cannot give you them because I don;t feel strongly about national identity but I bet there are people that could. Some people feel very strongly about it. I am not talking about the rights and wrongs of their argument but merely suggesting that some people hold that there are certain values that are "British" and they feel scared that we are losing them. I think to deny them of that is a part of the problem with the left (and I include myself in "the left"). If we ignore and belittle their arguments we create further an environment where people feel attacked and eroded and then people like Farage and Trump step in. Edited 8 February 2018 by RumbleFox
Buce Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 2 minutes ago, RumbleFox said: I disagree. I cannot give you them because I don;t feel strongly about national identity but I bet there are people that could. Some people feel very strongly about it. I am not talking about the rights and wrongs of their argument but merely suggesting that some people hold that there are certain values that are "British" and they feel scared that we are losing them. I think to deny them of that is a part of the problem with the left (and I include myself in "the left"). If we ignore ant belittle their arguments we create further an environment where people feel attacked and eroded and then people like Farage and Trump step in. Until someone explains what British values are and how they are being eroded then I will continue to ignore them, thanks. Just saying it is a meaningless statement, not an argument.
Guest Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 15 minutes ago, RumbleFox said: I can't think of any that would convince me personally but I am not really nationalistic in any way at all but are you saying that no one in Britian thinks that "British values are being eroded"? Seems an odd viewpoint to me because you hear it all the time. Just because we don;t agree with them it does not mean that people don't genuinely believe it. I mean, some people like Mick Hucknall which to to me is worse than murder 'n' that but I cannae tell people that like him they don;t really like him. X I think you're being very fair and reasonable but you are missing out the concept of challenge. It's fine for people to have whatever opinion they want but equally opinions are there to be challenged.
RumbleFox Posted 8 February 2018 Posted 8 February 2018 Just now, Buce said: Until someone explains what British values are and how they are being eroded then I will continue to ignore them, thanks. Just saying it is a meaningless statement, not an argument. Och, I like to try and at least see things from other people's point of view even if their point of view I disagree with strongly. Anyhoo, different strokes for different folks. X
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