Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest MattP]

14 minutes ago, purpleronnie said:

I've already shown you one article and the comments by right wingers keep asking for the same thing, you want me to google a load more comments?

 

You're right people believe that immigration reduces wages but from all I have read....some reputable articles matt...have always stated its very small.  Considering the benefits of immigration here it seems a poor reason to vote brexit.

You showed me a comments section from the Daily Mail before Brexit as some weird proof some right wingers claimed the German economy would tank. 

 

(On the same count I'm ready for WW4 as many Guardian readers said WW3 was last year because of Trump)

 

Do you remember the chair of BSE saying Brexit would raise wages of the poorest?

 

Let's have a debate on immigration on pay if you want, happy to do so, let's get the facts out there for everyone to see.

 

9 minutes ago, purpleronnie said:

Liam fox is that you?

You actually used to contribute, sad to see you descend into a troll.

 

9 minutes ago, Buce said:

Then you have no integrity or any discernable moral compass.

 

Your alleged gay friends must be proud.

 

That it is several degrees of immorality less than trading weapons to them.

Still never answered the question did you? But really? 

 

Would they be more proud of me if at my accord I marched down the street waving a flag that demands gays are murdered?

 

One of my "alleged" gay friends works for BAE btw, he doesn't like the regime I imagine but they sell because if we don't someone else will. 

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

17 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

 

One of the arguments for Brexit was wage supression.

Where did left wing nonsense come?

 

I voted for Brexit because I believe our economy will ultimately  become stronger and, we can run our own country once more, without being told by foreigners what we can or cannot do, while at the same time, paying vast sums of money to aid bankrupt countries like Greece ETC.

 

I want immigration to be clamped down on, very hard. Immigrants who have criminal records, and those who don't work for a living, to be repatriated to their country of origin. Those with skills and professional qualifications should have the right to settle here. This would relieve the pressures on housing, benefits, education,  the NHS, and crime etc. I could go on.

 

Of course, we have plenty of people, both black and white, to whom the above applies, but sadly were born here, and so the above cannot apply.

 

Doubtless, I will not get all I wish, but any of the above, would make our country stronger. Our soldiers died in two world wars, to make this, their, country a better place to live in, away from the shackles of foreign masters. Looking around today, I just wonder , if they could see us now, was sacrificing their lives really worth it? Some how I  don't think they would. It may seem irrelevant to you, but to the older generation, it certainly does not'

 

Quite a mixture up there, so sort that lot out! I can see the cr-p coming now, but I don't give a flying f--k.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

/

 

 

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

Again, if you are asking for GOOD reasons you can argue but it does not stop them being REASONS.  You cannot ask someone why they voted then when they tell you either not believe it or not listen.  Some people think that "British values" are being eroded and it has nothing to do with economics.  I strongly disagree with people who think that but it would be mental of me to tell them that they didn't mean it or that "you might SAY that but really it's economic".  Even if we assume for one second that you are right and that there is not one single non-economic reason for voting Brexit, what is your point?  I am genuinely intrigued?

When we said we voted for brexit for non economic reasons, it means that we didn’t expect it to be a boost to the economy or better off financially personally for it but Rog now wants to connect everything into the economy so that he can say it’s because we don’t like brown faces. It’s obvious trap, it’s why he has had only sarcastic replies.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Strokes said:

Not going to mention Greece then?

I can't defend the Greece situation. 

 

At no.point have I ever said that the EU is perfect. There are things I'd change about it. But I am adamant that membership is far more beneficial for the UK than any of the alternatives. You only have to look at growth figures pre and post joining. The EU has been incredibly good for our country. 

[Rogstanley]

3 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

Again, if you are asking for GOOD reasons you can argue but it does not stop them being REASONS.  You cannot ask someone why they voted then when they tell you either not believe it or not listen.  Some people think that "British values" are being eroded and it has nothing to do with economics.  I strongly disagree with people who think that but it would be mental of me to tell them that they didn't mean it or that "you might SAY that but really it's economic".  Even if we assume for one second that you are right and that there is not one single non-economic reason for voting Brexit, what is your point?  I am genuinely intrigued?

It started with MattP claiming that the vote for brexit was not for economic reasons, a couple of pages back. He said that to try and justify why he is ok with the economy (potentially) going down the pan because of brexit. So my question has been, what non-economic reasons are there, that you’re feel so strongly about that you’re willing to become poorer in order to achieve them.

 

Because it would have to be a pretty strongly held opinion, wouldn’t it? People don’t make themselves poorer lightly. Things like “British values” aren’t strong enough. So what’s the real reason?

[RumbleFox]

6 minutes ago, Strokes said:

When we said we voted for brexit for non economic reasons, it means that we didn’t expect it to be a boost to the economy or better off financially personally for it but Rog now wants to connect everything into the economy so that he can say it’s because we don’t like brown faces. It’s obvious trap, it’s why he has had only sarcastic replies.

Seems weird.  I voted Remain and am gutted we are leaving and would debate gladly anyone who said it is good that we are leaving but I would never dream of telling them their arguments are not held for valid reasons, nor to assume it is all economic.  I might disagree but who am I to say you didn't mean it?  This is why I hate the world.  No one really listens to anyone.  If only ol' Rumble was in charge.  X

Edited 8 February 2018 by RumbleFox

[RumbleFox]

4 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

It started with MattP claiming that the vote for brexit was not for economic reasons, a couple of pages back. He said that to try and justify why he is ok with the economy (potentially) going down the pan because of brexit. So my question has been, what non-economic reasons are there, that you’re feel so strongly about that you’re willing to become poorer in order to achieve them.

 

Because it would have to be a pretty strongly held opinion, wouldn’t it? People don’t make themselves poorer lightly. Things like “British values” aren’t strong enough. So what’s the real reason?

So basically you asked people what their reasons were, they told you and then you chose not to believe them because you think they are not strong enough? I agree with you that they are not strong reasons but I disagree with your claim that it is impossible for anyone to believe they are strong reasons.  Why doubt what people say? Some people feel so strongly about, for example, "British values" that they would be willing to vote for something which would help them reclaim that without even thinking about economics.  Now I think they would be foolish and incorrect to do so but I would believe that they meant it.

Edited 8 February 2018 by RumbleFox

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

When we said we voted for brexit for non economic reasons, it means that we didn’t expect it to be a boost to the economy or better off financially personally for it but Rog now wants to connect everything into the economy so that he can say it’s because we don’t like brown faces. It’s obvious trap, it’s why he has had only sarcastic replies.

Pretty much nails it this point.

 

Bring everything around to this and they can shout and scream as they love to do that anyone who disagrees becomes the caricature of what they believe them to be, same (successful btw) tactic of those who sought to diagnose people who politically opposed them in the 90's and 00's as having mental issue or irrational fear i.e phobias. 

 

Fortunately people aren't falling for it anymore and those days are gone.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

Where did left wing nonsense come?

 

I voted for Brexit because I believe our economy will ultimately  become stronger and, we can run our own country once more, without being told by foreigners what we can or cannot do, while at the same time, paying vast sums of money to aid bankrupt countries like Greece ETC.

 

I want immigration to be clamped down on, very hard. Immigrants who have criminal records, and those who don't work for a living, to be repatriated to their country of origin. Those with skills and professional qualifications should have the right to settle here. This would relieve the pressures on housing, benefits, education,  the NHS, and crime etc. I could go on.

 

Of course, we have plenty of people, both black and white, to whom the above applies, but sadly were born here, and so the above cannot apply.

 

Doubtless, I will not get all I wish, but any of the above, would make our country stronger. Our soldiers died in two world wars, to make this, their, country a better place to live in, away from the shackles of foreign masters. Looking around today, I just wonder , if they could see us now, was sacrificing their lives really worth it? Some how I  don't think they would. It may seem irrelevant to you, but to the older generation, it certainly does not'

 

Quite a mixture up there, so sort that lot out! I can see the cr-p coming now, but I don't give a flying f--k.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

/

 

 

The great shame is that we have always had the ability to repatriate EU nationals who can't support themselves after 3 months, but successive governments chose not to utilise this. It's done elsewhere in europe. We didn't need to leave to enact this.

 

Regarding the economy, you don't come here often so I'll go easy and play nicely. But can I ask: before we joined the EU we were known as the sick man of europe. After joining we became the 5th largest economy in the world (and dropped to 6th the moment the vote occurred).

 

The only economic forum predicting we'll be better off, out of hundreds of academic, government and worldwide studies, is 'economists for Brexit'. Their study shows us being better off (they are brexiteers after all)but all of the positive effects of this going to the rich, with manufacturing being wiped out and average wages falling. That's the brexit lovers study. So why are you convinced we'll ultimately be better off? And how long are you prepared to be poorer for in the meantime?

[RumbleFox]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

Pretty much nails it this point.

 

Bring everything around to this and they can shout and scream as they love to do that anyone who disagrees becomes the caricature of what they believe them to be, same (successful btw) tactic of those who sought to diagnose people who politically opposed them in the 90's and 00's as having mental issue or irrational fear i.e phobias. 

 

Fortunately people aren't falling for it anymore and those days are gone.

The Brexiteers are just as guilty though.  Both sides, of any argument just don;t listen.  I really wish we lived in a world where people in general, and politicians specifically, could say "I agree with on that bit and actually you were right and I was wrong about that other thing but on this other thing I disagree with you because of these facts.....".  But no, it's all just a load of children masturbating and throwing shit at each other. X

[Rogstanley]

1 minute ago, RumbleFox said:

So basically you asked people what their reasons were, they told you and then you chose not to believe them because you think they are not strong enough? I agree with you that they are not strong reasons but I disagree with your claim that it is impossible for anyone to believe they are strong reasons.  Why doubt what people say? Some people feel so strongly about, for example, "British values" that they would be willing to vote for something which would help them reclaim that without even thinking about economics.  Now I think they would be foolish and incorrect to do so but I would believe that they meant it.

Basically no, you’ve completely misinterpreted what I said, which is ironic given you’re complaining about people not listening.

 

I just wanted to know what non-economic reasons people had for voting brexit. None of the brexiters on here have given me one.

[Strokes]

7 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I can't defend the Greece situation. 

 

At no.point have I ever said that the EU is perfect. There are things I'd change about it. But I am adamant that membership is far more beneficial for the UK than any of the alternatives. You only have to look at growth figures pre and post joining. The EU has been incredibly good for our country. 

I don’t think it was that long a go you were saying capitalism is failing and pointing to the social decline since Maggie Thatcher. 

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Basically no, you’ve completely misinterpreted what I said, which is ironic given you’re complaining about people not listening.

 

I just wanted to know what non-economic reasons people had for voting brexit. None of the brexiters on here have given me one.

Apart from me.

 

Explain to me why we have to have our non economic laws made by the EU. What laws do they pass that we couldn't pass ourselves?

[RumbleFox]

Just now, Rogstanley said:

Basically no, you’ve completely misinterpreted what I said, which is ironic given you’re complaining about people not listening.

 

I just wanted to know what non-economic reasons people had for voting brexit. None of the brexiters on here have given me one.

Jesus.  They have given you reasons, even I have as someone who voted Remain and you have failed to accept those reasons.  This very thread sums up what is wrong with the world  You and I agree on Brexit and we agree on lots of things "politically" speaking but still you can't even say "yeah that person realy believes that, I disagree but I understand why they cite that as a reason".  Honestly, I think you do your own argument a disservice but hey ho, I might be wrong.  I am nothing if not big enough to admit when I am wrong.  

[Strokes]

Just now, Webbo said:

Apart from me.

And me.

I said passport colours. (Which was quite funny)

[Webbo]

Just now, Strokes said:

And me.

I said passport colours. (Which was quite funny)

It was very funny.

[RumbleFox]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

And me.

I said passport colours. (Which was quite funny)

But you have to pay for passports so it is economic really.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

The Brexiteers are just as guilty though.  Both sides, of any argument just don;t listen.  I really wish we lived in a world where people in general, and politicians specifically, could say "I agree with on that bit and actually you were right and I was wrong about that other thing but on this other thing I disagree with you because of these facts.....".  But no, it's all just a load of children masturbating and throwing shit at each other. X

The problem is that people are more interested with being right than doing what's right.

 

But then if folks - as individuals, groups and states - did as you said here then we might actually get some global problems solved and we can't have that, can we?

[Rogstanley]

3 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

Jesus.  They have given you reasons, even I have as someone who voted Remain and you have failed to accept those reasons.  This very thread sums up what is wrong with the world  You and I agree on Brexit and we agree on lots of things "politically" speaking but still you can't even say "yeah that person realy believes that, I disagree but I understand why they cite that as a reason".  Honestly, I think you do your own argument a disservice but hey ho, I might be wrong.  I am nothing if not big enough to admit when I am wrong.  

I think you’re overreacting to things in my posts that aren’t even there.

 

All I’m asking is for a brexiter (ie not you) to give me a non-economic reason why they voted brexit.

 

Ok Webbo has had a go, but I think those reasons he gave are actually economic when you look at them in more detail.

[RumbleFox]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

The problem is that people are more interested with being right than doing what's right.

 

But then if folks - as individuals, groups and states - did as you said here then we might actually get some global problems solved and we can't have that, can we?

Yeah.  I think the sad truth is that people see an argument as "winning or losing" which is silly really.  Some arguments are about consciousness raising, creating a debate, seeing things from different sides.  It is not always about "I win, you lose".  Although, you know, I have won this. X

[The Doctor]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Apart from me.

 

Explain to me why we have to have our non economic laws made by the EU. What laws do they pass that we couldn't pass ourselves?

Id argue the tobacco products directive (never underestimate the power of big tobacco), but it's rather beside the point - less what laws we couldn't pass than what laws would be beneficial but for which there isn't the political will to do so (for instance having clean beaches)

[RumbleFox]

Just now, Rogstanley said:

I think you’re overreacting to things in my posts that aren’t even there.

 

All I’m asking is for a brexiter (ie not you) to give me a non-economic reason why they voted brexit.

 

Ok Webbo has had a go, but I think those reasons he gave are actually economic when you look at them in more detail.

Can you see why that is a frustrating viewpoint from yourself for the Brexiteers?  You asked them for a reason, they told you and then you told them their reason was not valid?  I am not trying to have a go but can you see why some people are getting frustrated?  It comes across as a little patronising?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

I don’t think it was that long a go you were saying capitalism is failing and pointing to the social decline since Maggie Thatcher. 

I'm not sure you've got my views quite right there.

 

Both tory terms since Thatcher have led to demonstrably bad outcomes for society. I've said numerous times that the Blair government was one of the most successful ever as it coupled rising affluence with huge improvements in public services.

 

In terms of capitalism, it's neo-liberalism that I've been most critical of. I don't have an issue with a softer capitalism but the capatalism running rampant model is a terrible stain on humanity. Money is considered more important than people.

 

I want business to be successful and for markets to operate. But I want public services to be run publicly, without a profit motive. Transport and energy should absolutely be owned and run by the state. That doesn't stop somebody like Webbo running his business at all.

 

I also an unhappy with the logic of low tax, low spend. Ultimately low spend leads to bad outcomes and if it is only low spend because people have to pay for services themselves, and those services are run privately (think £12000 train again tickets) then I am clearly opposed.

 

I recognise that the EU is a capitalist club but I'm not particularly concerned so long as we are able internally to utilise the benefits for the good of our people. That's the point at which my criticisms of successive Tory governments begins.

 

 

 

 

[Webbo]

Just now, The Doctor said:

Id argue the tobacco products directive (never underestimate the power of big tobacco), but it's rather beside the point - less what laws we couldn't pass than what laws would be beneficial but for which there isn't the political will to do so (for instance having clean beaches)

Why wouldn't there be the will to have clean beaches? 

[Rogstanley]

3 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

Can you see why that is a frustrating viewpoint from yourself for the Brexiteers?  You asked them for a reason, they told you and then you told them their reason was not valid?  I am not trying to have a go but can you see why some people are getting frustrated?  It comes across as a little patronising?

I don’t know, did Jesus’ disciples feel patronised? Sometimes people do need to be taught.

 

It was a simple request and proved a point, if only in my own mind. I’m happy to leave it there if people are getting frustrated.

Edited 8 February 2018 by Rogstanley