Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[The Guvnor]

Interesting debate about the Burka. There obviously will be some Women who are comfortable wearing it and conversely some who wear it due to Social, religious or other external pressures,  and no I don't have any evidence to support that, equally as I don't have any evidence that there are Women who are extremely comfortable wearing it.

Now when I fill up my motorbike in a petrol station I have to remove my full face helmet, would someone wearing a Burka have to remove the part of the clothing that allows CCTV to identify that person? which is what I was told was the reason for asking me to remove it.

Edited 8 August 2018 by The Guvnor

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

The idea that we don't already tell people what they can and can't wear is absurd. How long has the 'naked rambler' been persecuted and jailed for his beliefs? How many venues have a strict dress code? How many pubs won't let you in if you're wearing the wrong football colours on matchday? If you were to walk down the high street with something offensive like "your mum's a cvnt" or a cartoon of Mohammed, you're likely to offend and could legitimately be prosecuted for it. 

There is a huge difference in not being allowed in a private establishment because of dress code or offensive pictures/slogans to completely banning the burka. Surely you can see that?

[urban.spaceman]

9 hours ago, Dr The Singh said:

Were one of the better nations my friend, atleast we have some sort of transparency.

 

3 hours ago, purpleronnie said:

It's pretty much the same everywhere atm.

 

If it winds you up so much you should distance yourself from reading about it, I did a similar thing, in fact I look at most of these things as quite humorous these types of stories have been going on for decades, politicians always fight amongst themselves and the opposition, the older you get the more you realise that its always happened and will always happen, round and round they go...its quite funny really.

 

I was having a bad night! 

 

I do love my country which is probably why I'm so bloody angry with the state that it's in. I'm on the left but I'm fed up with the antics of the people that are so far left that anything to the right of the is a far right fascist. I voted remain but the behaviour of the remainers since the referendum and before frankly, appall me. 

 

Everyone needs to calm the **** down. 

[Buce]

 

I also think we have to be very careful about imposing our cultural values on these women. History is littered with examples of dominant societies 'helping' people to become 'civilised', with disastrous consequences - the Indigenous Peoples of  North America and Australasia spring to mind.

[urban.spaceman]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

There is a huge difference in not being allowed in a private establishment because of dress code or offensive pictures/slogans to completely banning the burka. Surely you can see that?

Depends on your perspective as to what's offensive, what's obscene, and what's conducive to the public good. 

[Strokes]

8 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Depends on your perspective as to what's offensive, what's obscene, and what's conducive to the public good. 

Not really, a message or slogan is always open to interpretation. I don’t have a problem with private establishments asking women to remove their face covering otherwise being denied entry. That’s acceptable and might be completely necessary for security. There is no need for governmental interference and no matter what parallels you draw, there isn’t a comparison.

[Guest MattP]

17 minutes ago, Buce said:

I also think we have to be very careful about imposing our cultural values on these women. History is littered with examples of dominant societies 'helping' people to become 'civilised', with disastrous consequences - the Indigenous Peoples of  North America and Australasia spring to mind.

Big difference there of course is we aren't going across the World to impose it.

The British government can impose whatever values it wants provided they are elected by the British people to do so.

[urban.spaceman]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Not really, a message or slogan is always open to interpretation. I don’t have a problem with private establishments asking women to remove their face covering otherwise being denied entry. That’s acceptable and might be completely necessary for security. There is no need for governmental interference and no matter what parallels you draw, there isn’t a comparison.

Well there is. Like you said, it's open to interpretation. 

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Well there is. Like you said, it's open to interpretation. 

A message or slogan?

A burka, whats to interpret? How could you find it offensive unless you had knowledge it was the subject of oppression?

[Buce]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

Big difference there of course is we aren't going across the World to impose it.

The British government can impose whatever values it wants provided they are elected by the British people to do so.

 

I disagree.

 

Imposing our cultural values of how to dress would be very un-British.

[Max Wall]

25 minutes ago, MattP said:

Big difference there of course is we aren't going across the World to impose it.

The British government can impose whatever values it wants provided they are elected by the British people to do so.

We didn't live by indigenous people's values/rules when we claimed land masses as our own. I understand imperial rule is historic now but it doesn't change it. 

Not sure we can impose a ban on people without being hypocritical can we?

[urban.spaceman]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

A message or slogan?

A burka, whats to interpret? How could you find it offensive unless you had knowledge it was the subject of oppression?

There's many legitimate reasons to be offended by the burka, just as there are many reasons women have for wearing it; the idea of enforced modesty, the statement it makes about women and men, the fact that women are legally forced to wear it elsewhere, the extreme religious justification ('closer to god' nonsense) etc. 

[Bellend Sebastian]

But if they ban the burqa, it will make it harder to tell who is a Muslim and in turn who to shout at on buses

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

There's many legitimate reasons to be offended by the burka, just as there are many reasons women have for wearing it; the idea of enforced modesty, the statement it makes about women and men, the fact that women are legally forced to wear it elsewhere, the extreme religious justification ('closer to god' nonsense) etc. 

 

You're actually offended by people who don't share your cultural and personal values?

 

Wow.

[Kopic]

I have an American cousin, who is a devout Muslim. She is married to a horrible man who forces her to wear the full burka and she is totally against it but is scared of him. Also being in the US doesn't help, the amount of abuse she gets, even when with us is shocking. 

 

It's not really something you can just ban. Ban that, then ban all religious clothing/accessories. Some people do wear burkas by choice, so it's the only fair way.

[Max Wall]

2 minutes ago, Kopic said:

I have an American cousin, who is a devout Muslim. She is married to a horrible man who forces her to wear the full burka and she is totally against it but is scared of him. Also being in the US doesn't help, the amount of abuse she gets, even when with us is shocking. 

 

It's not really something you can just ban. Ban that, then ban all religious clothing/accessories. Some people do wear burkas by choice, so it's the only fair way.

Where does that happen in the main if you don't mind me asking?

Middle and southern America can have quite archaic views for an advanced country and tend to be very vocal about them. The coasts tend to be a lot more liberal but the hysteria ever present since 9/11 doesn't help. Is she in one of the major cities?

 

[Alf Bentley]

52 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

The idea that we don't already tell people what they can and can't wear is absurd. How long has the 'naked rambler' been persecuted and jailed for his beliefs? How many venues have a strict dress code? How many pubs won't let you in if you're wearing the wrong football colours on matchday? If you were to walk down the high street with something offensive like "your mum's a cvnt" or a cartoon of Mohammed, you're likely to offend and could legitimately be prosecuted for it. 

 

Big difference between your appearance getting you excluded from certain premises and that appearance being banned anywhere in public.

 

There are good reasons of social order for some pubs not allowing opposing fans to mix or for people to object to deliberately offensive slogans/images (though they'd mostly be ignored in practice).

Likewise, there are valid commercial reasons for clubs seeking a particular vibe to exclude jeans and trainers. But nobody's going to stop you walking down the street in an LCFC shirt or jeans and trainers.

 

Similarly, someone wearing a burka won't gain access to certain premises (probably including nightclubs or pubs full of football fans ) - and certainly won't get access to certain public service roles: teacher, police officer, bank clerk etc.

A bloke who chooses to shave his head, wear DMs and braces and have "Skins Aggro" tattooed on his forehead will lose access to a similar range of roles. But there's no reason why either the skinhead or the woman in a burka should be prevented from walking down the street looking like that - much as I don't personally like either look. If either of them attack passers-by, they should be arrested. If there is evidence that either of them is being forced to dress like that against their will, then the person forcing them should be arrested (hard to prove, though).

 

The only valid comparisons to a complete public ban on burkas are your naked rambler example or bans on truly offensive slogans (e.g. a T-shirt with the slogan "Kill all Muslims" or "Kill all Infidels").

Again, there's a valid social order reason for the latter - to prevent the incitement of hatred. Personally, I think the Naked Rambler should be allowed to do his thing, but appreciate that I'm in a minority. It's well established that it's socially unacceptable to walk around naked in public (except at nudist beaches etc.). OK, so the Rambler is mainly off on his own in the countryside, but I can understand some parents being concerned about their kiddies playing in the woods and seeing some bloke walk past with his tackle swinging around...even if he's perfectly harmless and most kids would find it funny and entertaining. 

[Kopic]

2 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

Where does that happen in the main if you don't mind me asking?

Middle and southern America can have quite archaic views for an advanced country and tend to be very vocal about them. The coasts tend to be a lot more liberal but the hysteria ever present since 9/11 doesn't help. Is she in one of the major cities?

 

 

She's in Wilmington, Delaware. Going shopping etc is where we mostly experienced it. Not been with her elsewhere in the US.

[Max Wall]

2 minutes ago, Kopic said:

 

She's in Wilmington, Delaware. Going shopping etc is where we mostly experienced it. Not been with her elsewhere in the US.

I guess that's pretty rural whilst being close to the coast. To be honest, it must be hard being a Muslim in any Western country in recent years. The abuse and suspicion aimed at ordinary working people must be pretty difficult to deal with.

Ignorance is so often the cause but the constant pinning of religion to crime doesn't help and that's the media and news agencies that get away with doing it. I've never seen a headline on the news that says Catholic man robs bank, maybe they used to and I'm just not old enough to have seen it. General persecution of any kind is abominable in 2018 as far as I'm concerned and not enough is done to educate.

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Max Wall said:

I guess that's pretty rural whilst being close to the coast. To be honest, it must be hard being a Muslim in any Western country in recent years. The abuse and suspicion aimed at ordinary working people must be pretty difficult to deal with.

Ignorance is so often the cause but the constant pinning of religion to crime doesn't help and that's the media and news agencies that get away with doing it. I've never seen a headline on the news that says Catholic man robs bank, maybe they used to and I'm just not old enough to have seen it. General persecution of any kind is abominable in 2018 as far as I'm concerned and not enough is done to educate.

 

I know it's a cliche, but travel really does broaden the mind.

 

I'd be all in favour of government-sponsored travel for young people pre-uni.

[Guest MattP]

37 minutes ago, Buce said:

I disagree.

 

Imposing our cultural values of how to dress would be very un-British.

 

25 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

We didn't live by indigenous people's values/rules when we claimed land masses as our own. I understand imperial rule is historic now but it doesn't change it. 

Not sure we can impose a ban on people without being hypocritical can we?

I don't support a ban, but I have no problem at all with our politicians suggesting that in a liberal, equal society dress like the Burka is outdated, sexist and alien. The more people who speak out against it the better.

[Max Wall]

Just now, Buce said:

 

I know it's a cliche, but travel really does broaden the mind.

 

I'd be all in favour of government-sponsored travel for young people pre-uni.

I agree. 

Your 2nd point is a pretty good idea, I'd never considered it before.

[Guest MattP]

7 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

I guess that's pretty rural whilst being close to the coast. To be honest, it must be hard being a Muslim in any Western country in recent years. The abuse and suspicion aimed at ordinary working people must be pretty difficult to deal with.

Ignorance is so often the cause but the constant pinning of religion to crime doesn't help and that's the media and news agencies that get away with doing it. I've never seen a headline on the news that says Catholic man robs bank, maybe they used to and I'm just not old enough to have seen it. General persecution of any kind is abominable in 2018 as far as I'm concerned and not enough is done to educate.

If someone has blown up innocent people shouting Allah Akbar and left a confession video telling us that he has done it because of what the Koran tells him, it's going to be pretty hard to report the case without letting the public know he's a Muslim.

If anything I'd suggest the press is often kind, see the Muslim grooming gangs all over the country described in the Mainstream as "Asian" rather than making reference to the religion.

[Max Wall]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

I don't support a ban, but I have no problem at all with our politicians suggesting that in a liberal, equal society dress like the Burka is outdated, sexist and alien. The more people who speak out against it the better.

That's just where we greatly differ Matt. The problem with that for me is that, for example, a working Muslim woman, law abiding, tax paying, chooses to wear the burka rather than being told to by a man. The more people encouraged to 'speak out against it', the more she is under growing pressure to remove something she wears by choice. The more people in positions of power that 'speak out against it' the more ordinary people in the street will become vocal towards someone wearing a burka. I just can't see that as causing anything other than persecution in the long run. If you could prove conclusively that all women wear a burka against their will, that would be a different matter, but that's not the case.

I'm not ignoring or belittling any of your points btw, we all have our own opinions. 

[Buce]

5 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

I agree. 

Your 2nd point is a pretty good idea, I'd never considered it before.

 

The Israeli government does it (or at least did, I'm not sure how up to date the information is) for their kids after their compulsory military service, and young Israelis are some of the nicest, well-adjusted people I've ever met. In fact, it's the best hope for peace in the region, imo.