Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[urban.spaceman]

19 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Absolutely not.

 

My issue with what Bozo said was his rude and disrespectful terminology, which was aimed at the lowest common denominator.

Of course it was rude and disrespectful. That doesn't mean it was somehow wrong or - as Met Police head Cressida Dick found out after asking her officers to investigate - a hate crime. There's far, far worse in holy books directed at non-believers, women and gays that we are expected to tolerate. 

[Strokes]

10 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

It has - and might it be posited that this was the intent of the article all along?

I think it was, let’s be honest. Boris has set a bit of trap and he wins whatever the outcome. I don’t think he is planning to join the far right, but he is positioning himself right where he wants to be and the more he gets pushed to apologise and retract the better placed he is.

He writes a lovely article supporting the burka and drops a few crass expressions and makes his detractors look unreasonable to his supporters and solidifies his position by standing by them. Check mate.

[urban.spaceman]

 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

Yes @urban.spaceman that Rowan Atkinson speech on the ‘right to offend’ has lived long in my mind and has no doubt influenced my view on this issue. 

 

 

Edited 9 August 2018 by DJ Barry Hammond

[leicsmac]

16 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Not really, because for my mind this was the ‘counter argument’ of the article. It’s right before the ‘but’ conclusion.

 

And let’s face it; the lowest common denominator wouldn’t normally pick up a copy of the Telegraph, even if Johnson is playing to a home crowd.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I think it was, let’s be honest. Boris has set a bit of trap and he wins whatever the outcome. I don’t think he is planning to join the far right, but he is positioning himself right where he wants to be and the more he gets pushed to apologise and retract the better placed he is.

He writes a lovely article supporting the burka and drops a few crass expressions and makes his detractors look unreasonable to his supporters and solidifies his position by standing by them. Check mate.

 

I was going to answer you Barry but Strokes pretty much did it for me, with the addendum that he doesn't have to join the far right in order to keep them onside and supportive of him if/when the time comes, and this is a very well-planned way of helping with that.

 

Perhaps I'm beating a particular drum too much here, but I think Bannon has helped him play a blinder on this one.

Edited 9 August 2018 by leicsmac

[urban.spaceman]

[urban.spaceman]

46 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

Yes @urban.spaceman that Rowan Atkinson speech on the ‘right to offend’ has lived long in my mind and has no doubt influenced my view on this issue. 

 

1

A society in which your deepest most personal beliefs and feelings can be trodden upon, is the only society worth living in.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

5 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

A society in which your deepest most personal beliefs and feelings can be trodden upon, is the only society worth living in.

 

I know too much about feelings being trodden on recently - but that’s probably for the depression thread ?

[urban.spaceman]

4 hours ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

I know too much about feelings being trodden on recently - but that’s probably for the depression thread ?

Maybe we should start demanding special treatment too? That'd go down well!

[CosbehFox]

Sorry to bring up the murky stories of grooming gangs. However yesterday it was revealed that Ampleforth and Downside School in Somerset have had a long history of sexual assault made against young boys. 

 

Will Tommy and his disciples be standing outside the court case involving this?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

1 hour ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Sorry to bring up the murky stories of grooming gangs. However yesterday it was revealed that Ampleforth and Downside School in Somerset have had a long history of sexual assault made against young boys. 

 

Will Tommy and his disciples be standing outside the court case involving this?

 

I’m not sure conflating two horrific situations achieves much; that stories of abuse keeps appearing with links to Catholic Church doesn’t make other stories about Asian grooming gangs any better; and even if these other examples didn’t exist, that wouldn’t make Tommy Robinson’s actions any less misguided.

 

We possibly need to ask ourselves that with an ever growing picture establishing that abuse of children is not just historic, but continues to be widespread across a cross section of society, can public anger about these stories be better used in finding a way to eradicate child abuse once and for all?

 

BBC article on Ampleforth and Downside School; 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-45127284

 

[Alf Bentley]

In before @MattP and @Webbo 

 

Extraordinary times when arguably the most chaotic Tory Govt and most unpopular Tory PM for decades are reportedly gaining ground and moving ahead of Labour....

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/poll-johnson-corbyn_uk_5b6cb058e4b0bdd06207be42

Westminster voting intention: CON: 39% (+1) LAB: 35% (-3) LDEM: 10% (-) UKIP: 7% (+1) via @YouGov, 08 - 09 Aug

 

...and when a left-wing faction works to hand the Labour leadership to a left-wing leader, then works to help him produce a surprisingly good election result....and now threatens to bring him down:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6042481/Corbyn-lose-support-Momentum-unless-backs-anti-Semitism.html

"Jeremy Corbyn has just a month to back down over the anti-Semitism row or face losing the backing of allies in Momentum and a major trade union, it today emerged...

He has now been told by his powerful allies he must formally sign up to the definition at a crunch party meeting in early September, the Politico website reports.

Activists have given the ultimatum amid fears the scandal is ripping the party apart and could cost the party their chances of winning the next election".

 

I did tell you that I thought Corbyn doesn't enjoy the vast power within Labour that some on the Right fear and imagine - and that the Labour Left, as well as the Moderates, will take a dim view of it if he looks like cocking up what should be an electorally advantageous situation for Labour, given the chaos and divisions within the Tory Party. Another reason why I think he'll have to tack closer to the Remain position - or maybe even promise a second referendum at some point.

 

[Alf Bentley]

2 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Sorry to bring up the murky stories of grooming gangs. However yesterday it was revealed that Ampleforth and Downside School in Somerset have had a long history of sexual assault made against young boys. 

 

Will Tommy and his disciples be standing outside the court case involving this?

 

Having got involved in an extended debate about this yesterday, I want to avoid that today - and accept that it's valid to look at particular types of abuse (even if the likes of Tommy have their own reasons for doing that) OR to look at it across the board.

 

A quick point from the "looking at it across the board" perspective: one of the few factors common to all child sexual abuse outside the home/family seems to be power v. vulnerability: adults with unchecked power abusing kids in a vulnerable situation. That applies to institutional abuse like this in boarding schools or children's homes, abuse by priests, abuse of girls from children's homes by (mainly) Pakistani men, cases like Savile etc. How you tackle that disparity of power and vulnerability, I'm not sure: greater regulation of powerful people/institutions? somehow encouraging people in surrounding communities to report suspected abuse (whether that community is a school, the Catholic church, the BBC or a local Pakistani/Muslim community?

 

Of course, that doesn't necessarily address the issue of abuse within the home/family, but I don't want to go there.

 

As I say, just a single point as I don't want to get drawn into this again today....  

Edited 10 August 2018 by Alf Bentley

[urban.spaceman]

National treasure status confirmed.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, urban.spaceman said:

National treasure status confirmed.

There's a massive difference between a comedian making such a joke in a comedic context (is it really that funny anyway?) and a politician making such remarks knowing that it's going to ostracise a certain section of the society he's supposed to serve, knowing that's it's going to be seized upon by people who have certain bigoted opinions and above all knowing that he's doing all this in the pursuit of self-service.

 

Rights are wonderful things, but they come with responsibilities (isn't that something most on the right believe?). In making these comments in the context he has, Boris has failed in his.

 

The debate about the burka is a complicated one and if Boris was serious in addressing that, he should have done so in a manner more befitting of his current office and the offices in which he has previously served.

Edited 10 August 2018 by Voll Blau

[bovril]

Not really a "good" joke is it, although we're talking about the man who played Mr Bean so not really a comedic genius. 

[lgfualol]

Yea, if that's a good joke I think Rowan Atkinson's had a bang on the head. 

[Alf Bentley]

11 minutes ago, bovril said:

Not really a "good" joke is it, although we're talking about the man who played Mr Bean so not really a comedic genius. 

 

True, though Mr. Bean is a particular form of comedy and Blackadder was very good.

 

To be fair to him, Boris does have the ability to be very funny and creative with his humour - a quality that has helped him gain popularity way out of proportion to his abilities as a politician. He'd have been a good TV comedian.

But his "letterbox" and "gangster" jokes were banal humour of the most obvious kind, regardless of whether they were offensive.

 

A third potential reason for his comment occurred to me (the assumption being either that it was innocent if clumsy humour or subtle dog-whistle politics).....

Maybe he threw such comments into his article to counter-balance the liberal message that the article was giving overall?

 

He knows a lot of people feel hostile to burkas, in particular, or to Muslims, in general, and would not naturally be sympathetic to his liberal message.....so maybe he thought that he'd chuck in a couple of jokes at the expense of Muslims to keep them onside and not alienate them with his liberal views on the burka?

 

Just a thought. I'll get on with life now. 

[Buce]

9 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

True, though Mr. Bean is a particular form of comedy and Blackadder was very good.

 

To be fair to him, Boris does have the ability to be very funny and creative with his humour - a quality that has helped him gain popularity way out of proportion to his abilities as a politician. He'd have been a good TV comedian.

But his "letterbox" and "gangster" jokes were banal humour of the most obvious kind, regardless of whether they were offensive.

 

A third potential reason for his comment occurred to me (the assumption being either that it was innocent if clumsy humour or subtle dog-whistle politics).....

Maybe he threw such comments into his article to counter-balance the liberal message that the article was giving overall?

 

He knows a lot of people feel hostile to burkas, in particular, or to Muslims, in general, and would not naturally be sympathetic to his liberal message.....so maybe he thought that he'd chuck in a couple of jokes at the expense of Muslims to keep them onside and not alienate them with his liberal views on the burka?

 

Just a thought. I'll get on with life now. 

 

Yeah, I think that’s pretty much it. Seems to have worked too. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/08/boris-johnsons-burqa-comments-bolster-his-grassroots-conservative-support

Edited 10 August 2018 by Buce

[The Fox Covert]

Always thought Rowan Atkinson was a crusty old Tory at heart and now we know for sure!

 

Boris Johnson's remarks are beyond offensive. I have outed him as an ignorant Tory bigot on this forum before. Just what does he have to do to get the sack? Use Alf Garnett type language to Diane Abbott's face?

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

In before @MattP and @Webbo 

 

Extraordinary times when arguably the most chaotic Tory Govt and most unpopular Tory PM for decades are reportedly gaining ground and moving ahead of Labour....

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/poll-johnson-corbyn_uk_5b6cb058e4b0bdd06207be42

Westminster voting intention: CON: 39% (+1) LAB: 35% (-3) LDEM: 10% (-) UKIP: 7% (+1) via @YouGov, 08 - 09 Aug

 

...and when a left-wing faction works to hand the Labour leadership to a left-wing leader, then works to help him produce a surprisingly good election result....and now threatens to bring him down:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6042481/Corbyn-lose-support-Momentum-unless-backs-anti-Semitism.html

"Jeremy Corbyn has just a month to back down over the anti-Semitism row or face losing the backing of allies in Momentum and a major trade union, it today emerged...

He has now been told by his powerful allies he must formally sign up to the definition at a crunch party meeting in early September, the Politico website reports.

Activists have given the ultimatum amid fears the scandal is ripping the party apart and could cost the party their chances of winning the next election".

 

I did tell you that I thought Corbyn doesn't enjoy the vast power within Labour that some on the Right fear and imagine - and that the Labour Left, as well as the Moderates, will take a dim view of it if he looks like cocking up what should be an electorally advantageous situation for Labour, given the chaos and divisions within the Tory Party. Another reason why I think he'll have to tack closer to the Remain position - or maybe even promise a second referendum at some point.

 

As good as that sounds the poll is a bit of out of snyc with other, most have it level. Corbyn's personal rating in the same poll is now at it's lowest ever, just 22% of people think he would make a good Prime Minister. The biggest worry for the Tories is that Labour are still polling 35+ plus despite a large proportion of those voters also thinkng Corbyn will be a terrible PM, that's a big worry as if he goes they could 15-20 points behind in an instant.

 

If this is to be believed he's quite worried that he will be pushed the way you suggest - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/09/corbyn-hopes-to-avert-calls-for-public-vote-on-brexit-at-conference

 

Quote

 

Labour has been considering how to head off a concerted attempt by remain-supporting members to stage a vote at its annual conference calling for a second referendum, to avoid what would be an embarrassing defeat for Jeremy Corbyn on the party’s Brexit policy.

 

About 130 constituency Labour parties (CLPs) were understood to have expressed willingness to back a motion in favour of a second vote, drafted by the pro-Corbyn campaign group Labour for People’s Vote.

To avoid a damaging defeat, one option is to invite delegates to support a Brexit policy statement that would refer to holding a second referendum, but only in exceptional circumstances.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Fox Covert said:

Always thought Rowan Atkinson was a crusty old Tory at heart and now we know for sure!

 

Boris Johnson's remarks are beyond offensive. I have outed him as an ignorant Tory bigot on this forum before. Just what does he have to do to get the sack? Use Alf Garnett type language to Diane Abbott's face?

Rown Atkinson is a Tory because he believes we should be allowed to tell jokes about religious dress? I'm not sure that's quite true.

As for him being sacked, don't be so utterly ridiculous. He's told a joke in a column, the idea he would be sacked from his job for that is so ludicrous I don't know where to begin.

[Buce]

21 minutes ago, MattP said:

As good as that sounds the poll is a bit of out of snyc with other, most have it level. Corbyn's personal rating in the same poll is now at it's lowest ever, just 22% of people think he would make a good Prime Minister. The biggest worry for the Tories is that Labour are still polling 35+ plus despite a large proportion of those voters also thinkng Corbyn will be a terrible PM, that's a big worry as if he goes they could 15-20 points behind in an instant.

 

If this is to be believed he's quite worried that he will be pushed the way you suggest - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/09/corbyn-hopes-to-avert-calls-for-public-vote-on-brexit-at-conference

 

 

Rown Atkinson is a Tory because he believes we should be allowed to tell jokes about religious dress? I'm not sure that's quite true.

As for him being sacked, don't be so utterly ridiculous. He's told a joke in a column, the idea he would be sacked from his job for that is so ludicrous I don't know where to begin.

5

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/09/tory-party-must-choose-its-future-direction-after-boris-johnson-burqa-row-says-sajjad-karim-mep

 

[bovril]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

True, though Mr. Bean is a particular form of comedy and Blackadder was very good.

 

Mr. Bean's about as funny as a fire in an orphanage and I never thought Blackadder was that amazing. Of course, this is completely subjective...

[breadandcheese]

I thought this was a well written article, although I still think Boris should have chosen his words better, to frame the environment for discussion.

Munira Mirza: Critiquing Islamist fundamentalist practice is not an ‘attack on Muslim women’

Munira Mirza is a former Deputy Mayor of London, and co-author of the Policy Exchange report ‘Living apart together: British Muslims and the paradox of multiculturalism’.

 

It is hard to know whether Boris Johnson’s comments about the burka would have provoked the same hysteria had they been made outside the August silly season, but one suspects they would not have received much notice if said by almost any other senior politician.

 

Ken Clarke has argued for a ban on wearing the burka in law courts, describing the garment as “a kind of bag”. None of the people now lining up to attack Johnson were vocal about Clarke’s comments. Emily Thornberry said she wouldn’t want a woman in a burka looking after her child. The Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police didn’t seek guidance as to whether her remarks constituted a criminal offence.

If Jeremy Wright and Ruth Davidson truly believe that anyone who describes the burka in derogatory terms is ‘crossing a line’, then we must ask why they have never criticised the many other senior politicians who have done so, such as Anna Soubry and Sadiq Khan.

 

In fact, Johnson’s article was reasonable, balanced and a thoughtful defence of Muslim women’s right to choose how they live. Unlike supposedly liberal leaders in the EU, like Emmanuel Macron, who ban the burka in their countries, Johnson argued that Muslim women should be free to make their own minds up.

However, what he refused to do was pretend to be neutral about the burka itself. He didn’t use clever words to avoid expressing his views, as politicians often do. He said what he believed, and in doing so, expressed what many people – including crucially, many Muslim women – believe.

 

A cursory look at the internet will reveal numerous Muslims – Gina Khan, Qanta Ahmed, Sabria Jawhar, Taj Hargey, Suad Farah – who share his opinion about the burka and agree that ridiculing it is a legitimate way of discouraging people from wearing it. They are not indifferent to its effects, but actively want to reduce its use. You have a right to wear what you like – and we have a right to express disapproval. If this is ‘bullying’, then what is the complete prohibition that operates in many places in Europe? It is ironic that many of Johnson’s fiercest critics are the same people urging us into an ever closer union with burka-banning EU countries.

 

There are some people now trying to argue that you should be critical of the burka but without using critical language. And that mocking people’s religious choices – no matter how extreme – is tantamount to racism. Did gay rights campaigners tread on eggshells about Christian beliefs when they argued for legalising gay marriage? Were feminist politicians in the UK supersensitive about Catholic beliefs during the abortion debate in Ireland? No, they disagreed powerfully, sometimes offensively, in a bid to persuade the public of their views. Mockery of religious practices is not everyone’s choice of tactic, but to act like it is beyond the pale is disingenuous and hypocritical.

 

Johnson genuinely dislikes the burka, and has felt this way for as long as I’ve known him. Not because he is ignorant about Islam. Quite the opposite. He knows far more about Islam and Islamic cultures than most of the politicians who are now lining up to attack him. He sees that the burka is a recent cultural accretion, which has been championed by extremists in many countries around the world and is actively opposed by moderate Muslims. That some women in the West freely choose to wear it doesn’t make it any more palatable. It remains a symbol of gender inequality (if it wasn’t, why don’t men wear it too?) and it is intended quite literally to limit the interaction between Muslim women and other people.

 

Johnson is the one treating Muslims as equals, expecting them to be part of the debate rather than left in a ghetto. He has bothered to learn about their customs, read their literature and understand the internal debates within their religion. He knows how badly many Muslim women are treated around the world and made girls’ education a priority whilst he was at the FCO. He made the issue of FGM in the UK a priority whilst he was Mayor of London. He met Muslim ‘community leaders’ yet also questioned them if he suspected they did not represent the full diversity of opinion amongst Muslims.

Recent polls show that a majority of British people want to follow the example of France and Denmark and ban the burka outright. Johnson disagrees and seeks to hold the line for liberal values. Those who have piled on him with wild accusations of Islamophobia and pandering to the hard right are either confused or disingenuous. By spinning his critique of Islamist fundamentalist practice as an ‘attack on Muslim women’ they throw moderate Muslims under the bus and empower the unrepresentative grievance mongers and extremists who masquerade as Muslim community spokesmen. Worst of all, by enforcing a rigid code of political correctness utterly at odds with public sentiment they destroy the middle ground of politics and open the door to the real extremists.

 

 

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/08/munira-mirza-critiquing-islamist-fundamentalist-practice-is-not-an-attack-on-muslim-women.html

 

Edited 10 August 2018 by breadandcheese

[urban.spaceman]

2 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

There's a massive difference between a comedian making such a joke in a comedic context (is it really that funny anyway?) and a politician making such remarks knowing that it's going to ostracise a certain section of the society he's supposed to serve, knowing that's it's going to be seized upon by people who have certain bigoted opinions and above all knowing that he's doing all this in the pursuit of self-service.

 

Rights are wonderful things, but they come with responsibilities (isn't that something most on the right believe?). In making these comments in the context he has, Boris has failed in his.

 

The debate about the burka is a complicated one and if Boris was serious in addressing that, he should have done so in a manner more befitting of his current office and the offices in which he has previously served.

 

The people doing the most to ostracise burka wearing women from the rest of society is burka wearing women. The garment is completely alien to Western culture and many millions of people are firmly against it, and not just in Britain. 

(nb, this map also discredits the "but it's racist" narrative)

 

If Boris or indeed any politician or even the average citizen had to sit down and consider the consequences and permutations of every single word they said or wrote, nobody would say anything ever. Basically a point covered better by Rowan Atkinson again:

 

 

As a high profile politician Boris literally has a job to start these debates. His language may be colourful but at least he's more honest than most politicians and had every right and duty to use his own words in his own way. 

 

If anyone is bigoted it's the people focussing on his innocuous choice of words and ignoring the rest of his argument. Grown-up people understand that as soon as they go outside or online or have any contact with the outside world, they might be triggered by something that will upset them. By accepting that and getting over one or two words that may be offensive, you stand a better chance of understanding the other 1000 words in the essay.

 

Either way, Boris has won this round.