Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

3 UKIP members suspended for suspected involvement in masked Far Right attack on left-wing bookshop: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ukip-suspends-members-protest-bookmarks-socialist-bookshop-attack-london-a8480466.html

 

Looks like the Far Right is in flux. One week you have the UKIP leader Batten speaking at a pro-Tommy Robinson rally, linking Islam to paedophilia. The next week you have UKIP members allegedly involved in a Nazi-style attack on a bookshop, chanting about Muslims and paedophilia. Fair enough, they've been suspended, but I don't remember UKIP members involved in anything like this before - the odd bigoted comment by stupid individuals, but nothing as organised as this.

 

Might be partly desperation from Batten, knowing that there are people coming up to his right who'll take away some of his support base (Robinson & co) but depressing nonetheless. I cannot imagine that Batten will be the man to lead a resurgent Far Right - but somebody will be...Robinson probably a stronger candidate.

Very sad to see a party formed on Libertarian ideas end up having representatives who do this. Batten is actually doing now what a lot of the membership wants, there was a huge desire for Anne Marie Waters to lead the party and they have had a surge in membership since then, I honestly think now he would win an leadership election contest against Farage.

 

I nearly joined UKIP a few years ago, I would have handed my card in already if I had, I'm still in a couple of groups online and the lurch to the right has been massive, Farage is getting a huge amount of abuse on his page for criticising Tommy Robinson.

 

For what's it worth I think it might work for them, I can see Britain catching up with the rest of Europe (ironically) and having a proper hard right party getting 15-20% of the vote. How do you tell people there isn't a conspiracy against them when they see what happened to Stephen Lennon last week? You can't.

Edited 7 August 2018 by MattP

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

Very sad to see a party formed on Libertarian ideas end up having representatives who do this. Batten is actually doing now what a lot of the membership wants, there was a huge desire for Anne Marie Waters to lead the party and they have had a surge in membership since then, I honestly think now he would win an leadership election contest against Farage.

 

I nearly joined UKIP a few years ago, I would have handed my card in already if I had, I'm still in a couple of groups online and the lurch to the right has been massive, Farage is getting a huge amount of abuse on his page for criticising Tommy Robinson.

 

For what's it worth I think it might work for them, I can see Britain catching up with the rest of Europe (ironically) and having a proper hard right party getting 15-20% of the vote. How do you tell people there isn't a conspiracy against them when they see what happened to Stephen Lennon last week? You can't.

 

1

You could be right.

 

Universe help us all, because it certainly seems that we can't help ourselves.

[Buce]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Very sad to see a party formed on Libertarian ideas end up having representatives who do this. Batten is actually doing now what a lot of the membership wants, there was a huge desire for Anne Marie Waters to lead the party and they have had a surge in membership since then, I honestly think now he would win an leadership election contest against Farage.

 

I nearly joined UKIP a few years ago, I would have handed my card in already if I had, I'm still in a couple of groups online and the lurch to the right has been massive, Farage is getting a huge amount of abuse on his page for criticising Tommy Robinson.

 

For what's it worth I think it might work for them, I can see Britain catching up with the rest of Europe (ironically) and having a proper hard right party getting 15-20% of the vote. How do you tell people there isn't a conspiracy against them when they see what happened to Stephen Lennon last week? You can't.

 

1

 

That doesn't bode well for public order because they won't go unopposed.

[Guest MattP]

5 minutes ago, Buce said:

That doesn't bode well for public order because they won't go unopposed.

You can't just start smashing up places because people vote for a certain party, if anything that will help them.

[Buce]

25 minutes ago, MattP said:

You can't just start smashing up places because people vote for a certain party, if anything that will help them.

 

Calm yourself, I wasn't planning to.

 

But in all seriousness, can you imagine that the militant left, anti-fascist groups, immigrant communities will do nothing while Far-Right candidates leaflet immigrant areas, which they will?

 

You're too young to remember the late Seventies when the NF was seeing some electoral success (albeit at a local level and certainly not at the 20% national level you're projecting) but every time they showed themselves on the streets they were met with seriously violent opposition. It would be no different now.

Edited 7 August 2018 by Buce

[Alf Bentley]

42 minutes ago, MattP said:

Very sad to see a party formed on Libertarian ideas end up having representatives who do this. Batten is actually doing now what a lot of the membership wants, there was a huge desire for Anne Marie Waters to lead the party and they have had a surge in membership since then, I honestly think now he would win an leadership election contest against Farage.

 

I nearly joined UKIP a few years ago, I would have handed my card in already if I had, I'm still in a couple of groups online and the lurch to the right has been massive, Farage is getting a huge amount of abuse on his page for criticising Tommy Robinson.

 

For what's it worth I think it might work for them, I can see Britain catching up with the rest of Europe (ironically) and having a proper hard right party getting 15-20% of the vote. How do you tell people there isn't a conspiracy against them when they see what happened to Stephen Lennon last week? You can't.

 

 

That's an interesting insight, assuming your experience is representative.

 

The next year - and next few years - certainly represent a great opportunity for the Far Right in the UK. About the only Brexit outcome that won't give the Far Right a big boost is if Brexit rapidly proves to be a great success, improving living standards and financial security, markedly reducing immigration without damaging public services etc. I don't think even those who believe that Brexit will be a success long-term believe such success will happen quickly. Any of the other potential outcomes are likely to boost the Far Right: if the Govt negotiate a deal perceived as a sell-out and life doesn't improve; if we somehow end up staying in the EU (unless that generates great improvements to people's lives - unlikely); or if a No Deal Brexit causes chaos and damages people's lives.

 

I don't think the question is whether the Far Right will get a boost in the next 1-2 years, it's a question of how much of a boost - and precisely how that boost manifests itself.

 

Hostility towards Islam and immigration aren't going to go away, and Robinson/Lennon has doubtless greatly boosted his standing among potential supporters through recent legal shenanigans. So, there'll definitely be a boost for ugly "street" Far Right activities. But do the likes of Robinson have any interest in electoral politics or do they want to continue to work the street mob?

 

Batten presumably hopes to take electoral advantage of this street mood. If the likes of Robinson don't want to get into electoral politics or to form their own conventional party, maybe there'll be some sort of loose alliance with a new more Far Right-friendly UKIP? Batten would be open to that, I'm sure, but does he - or any other potential UKIP leader - have the charisma to make a success of that? Farage would have the charisma but has mainly seemed disinclined to get into Far Right stuff in the past, preferring his "popular cheeky chappy / man of the people" image.

 

Particularly if the economy, living standards and personal security deteriorate, a Far Right party getting 15-20% of the vote in the UK is very possible. But would that give them much democratic representation? Only if their votes are very much concentrated in particular areas - which might be the case. But a large political force not getting any democratic representation is dangerous in itself - it encourages contempt for democracy and violent street politics.

 

As for the "conspiracy" against Robinson, I agree that his supporters are bound to see it that way. I imagine it was more a case of a judge out of his depth panicking and acting hastily - cock-up, not conspiracy. But for people who feel powerless and insecure, who have a victim mentality or who are keen to lash out, obviously they'll see it as vindication of their worldview - the establishment conspiring against them and their hero. Such attitudes are going to persist - and spread - unless people start feeling less economically insecure, politically disenfranchised and socially excluded. That won't change until the impact of globalisation and economic insecurity is remedied - hardly a minor task. Meanwhile, even if EU immigration is greatly reduced, the ire is just turned onto British Muslims and immigrants who are still here....the outlook doesn't look great. 

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Well said Boris, re the burqa. I couldn't agree more.   We should be like France etc. and ban it. When passing them, they get a very stony stare from me. Just seeing their eyes, and not their face, is not acceptable, when they live in our country. If these witches want to wear it, then they should fvck off to where it is acceptable, This is Britain, and these damned people are not helping integration within our society.

 

I've said it before and I will say it again; BAN the Burqa.

[Webbo]

13 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

Well said Boris, re the burqa. I couldn't agree more.   We should be like France etc. and ban it. When passing them, they get a very stony stare from me. Just seeing their eyes, and not their face, is not acceptable, when they live in our country. If these witches want to wear it, then they should fvck off to where it is acceptable, This is Britain, and these damned people are not helping integration within our society.

 

I've said it before and I will say it again; BAN the Burqa.

The govt shouldn't be telling anyone what they're allowed to wear.

[Strokes]

51 minutes ago, Webbo said:

The govt shouldn't be telling anyone what they're allowed to wear.

Quite right, 

Its not what we are about, I’ll also add though, I think we should also be free to mock clothing if we see it as ridiculous. I’m not sure of Boris’ motives but I’m fine with the content.

[davieG]

BBC

 

Boris Johnson has stood by his remarks about the burka after the Conservative Party chairman told him to apologise.

The former foreign secretary has been criticised for saying Muslim women wearing burkas "look like letter boxes" and comparing them to "bank robbers".

PM Theresa May has backed calls for Mr Johnson to apologise, saying the remarks have "clearly caused offence".

But a source close to Mr Johnson said he "won't be apologising", adding it was "ridiculous" to attack his views.

"We must not fall into the trap of shutting down the debate on difficult issues," the source added.

"We have to call it out. If we fail to speak up for liberal values then we are simply yielding ground to reactionaries and extremists."

[Wymsey]

Well, when does 'freedom of speech' cross the line in regards to race etc?

He couldn't have said anything more controversial really tbh.

A shame he's said it, as his stock/reputation has seemed quite positively strong over the past year or so.

[Webbo]

The offending article;

Quote

 

Ah Denmark, what a country. If any society breathes the spirit of liberty, this is it.

It was only a few weeks ago that I was in Copenhagen for some international conference, and as ever I rose early and went for a run. As I passed through some yuppie zone of warehouse conversions and posh restaurants I saw to my amazement that the Danes had also got up early for exercise – and they were diving stark naked into the bracing waters of the harbour. And I thought to myself – that’s the Danes for you; that’s the spirit of Viking individualism. I mean, we have a climate warmer than Denmark; but even so, would you expect to see Brits disrobing and plunging into the waters of Canary Wharf, or even Greenwich? We are pretty easy-going, but not that easy-going.

Denmark is the only country in Europe, as far as I know, that still devotes a large proportion of its capital city to an anarchist commune, called Christiania, where I remember spending a happy afternoon 25 years ago inhaling the sweet air of freedom. It is the Danes who still hold out against all sorts of EU tyrannies, large and small.

They still chew their lethal carcinogenic tobacco; they still eat their red-dyed frankfurters; they still use the krone rather than the euro; they still refuse to let foreigners buy holiday homes in Jutland; and of course it was the heroic population of Denmark that on that magnificent day in June 1992 stuck two fingers up to the elites of Europe and voted down the Maastricht treaty – and though that revolt was eventually crushed by the European establishment (as indeed, note, they will try to crush all such revolts), that great nej to Maastricht expressed something about the Danish spirit: a genial and happy cussedness and independence.

It is a spirit you see everywhere on the streets of Copenhagen in the veneration for that supreme embodiment of vehicular autonomy, the bicycle. The Danes don’t cycle with their heads down, grimly, in Lycra, swearing at people who get in their way. They wander and weave helmetless down the beautiful boulevards on clapped-out granny bikes, with a culture of cycling in which everyone is treated with courtesy and respect. Yes, if you wanted to visit a country that seemed on the face of it to embody the principles of JS Mill - that you should be able to do what you want provided you do no harm to others – I would advise you to head for wonderful, wonderful Copenhagen.

So I was a bit surprised to see that on August 1 the Danes joined several other European countries – France, Germany, Austria, Belgium – in imposing a ban on the niqab and the burka – those items of Muslim head-gear that obscure the female face. Already a fine of 1000 kroner – about £120 – has been imposed on a 28-year-old woman seen wearing a niqab in a shopping centre in the north eastern town of Horsholm. A scuffle broke out as someone tried to rip it off her head. There have been demonstrations, on both sides of the argument. What has happened, you may ask, to the Danish spirit of live and let live?

If you tell me that the burka is oppressive, then I am with you. If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their faces, then I totally agree – and I would add that I can find no scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran. I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people should choose to go around looking like letter boxes; and I thoroughly dislike any attempt by any – invariably male – government to encourage such demonstrations of “modesty”, notably the extraordinary exhortations of President Ramzan Kadyrov of Chechnya, who has told the men of his country to splat their women with paintballs if they fail to cover their heads.

If a constituent came to my MP’s surgery with her face obscured, I should feel fully entitled – like Jack Straw – to ask her to remove it so that I could talk to her properly. If a female student turned up at school or at a university lecture looking like a bank robber then ditto: those in authority should be allowed to converse openly with those that they are being asked to instruct. As for individual businesses or branches of government – they should of course be able to enforce a dress code that enables their employees to interact with customers; and that means human beings must be able to see each other’s faces and read their expressions. It’s how we work.

All that seems to me to be sensible. But such restrictions are not quite the same as telling a free-born adult woman what she may or may not wear, in a public place, when she is simply minding her own business.

I am against a total ban because it is inevitably construed – rightly or wrongly – as being intended to make some point about Islam. If you go for a total ban, you play into the hands of those who want to politicise and dramatise the so-called clash of civilisations; and you fan the flames of grievance. You risk turning people into martyrs, and you risk a general crackdown on any public symbols of religious affiliation, and you may simply make the problem worse. Like a parent confronted by a rebellious teenager determined to wear a spike through her tongue, or a bolt through her nose, you run the risk that by your heavy-handed attempt to ban what you see as a bizarre and unattractive adornment you simply stiffen resistance.

The burka and the niqab were certainly not always part of Islam. In Britain today there is only a tiny, tiny minority of women who wear these odd bits of headgear. One day, I am sure, they will go.

The Danes swim starkers in the heart of Copenhagen. If The Killing is to be believed, their female detectives wear Faroe sweaters on duty, as is their sovereign right. If Danish women really want to cover their faces, then it seems a bit extreme – all the caveats above understood – to stop them under all circumstances. I don’t propose we follow suit. A total ban is not the answer.

 

Seems a bit of fuss about nothing. He's saying we shouldn't ban the burka.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

18 minutes ago, Webbo said:

The offending article;

Seems a bit of fuss about nothing. He's saying we shouldn't ban the burka.

 

Its not a bad piece really. 

 

Think i I can agree with Johnson, he has nothing to apologise for here.

[Buce]

14 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Its not a bad piece really. 

 

Think i I can agree with Johnson, he has nothing to apologise for here.

 

I'll agree that it doesn't plumb the depths of Islamophobia but describing someone as 'looking like a letterbox' is at best rude and disrespectful, and at worst inflammatory. I expect better from a politician toward his constituents.

 

I imagine his apologists would think differently if Jeremy Corbyn had described the way Hasidic Jews dress and wear their hair as 'ridiculous'.

[lifted*fox]

4 hours ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

Well said Boris, re the burqa. I couldn't agree more.   We should be like France etc. and ban it. When passing them, they get a very stony stare from me. Just seeing their eyes, and not their face, is not acceptable, when they live in our country. If these witches want to wear it, then they should fvck off to where it is acceptable, This is Britain, and these damned people are not helping integration within our society.

 

I've said it before and I will say it again; BAN the Burqa.

 

You're just racking up the phobias ain't ya. 

 

Homophobic. Islamophobic. 

 

You must be super insecure to spend your time hating other people with such vitriol. 

 

I'd ship out racist, homophobic old boys like you with your backwards opinions and replace you with a friendly Muslim any day of the week.

[lifted*fox]

The whole burka argument is an absolute joke. 

 

You've got to be a right saddo to even give a shit, imo. 

 

If the woman wearing it has been oppressed into doing so then I disagree with it. 

 

If the woman wearing it is doing so out of choice then who the **** is anyone to question it. 

 

The whole premise of 'she might be wearing a bomb under there' or 'I can't see her face, it worries me' is just laughable. 

 

Walk past bare people wearing them in Leicester and walked past several today in Chamonix and you know what I thought about it? Absolutely ****ing nothing because its not my business and I'm not some tiny little insecure man who let's others choice of garment bother me in the slightest. 

[Strokes]

48 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I'll agree that it doesn't plumb the depths of Islamophobia but describing someone as 'looking like a letterbox' is at best rude and disrespectful, and at worst inflammatory. I expect better from a politician toward his constituents.

 

I imagine his apologists would think differently if Jeremy Corbyn had described the way Hasidic Jews dress and wear their hair as 'ridiculous'.

In all fairness, I’ve not criticised Corbyn for antisemetism. 

And I agree with most of what you say. I think it was rude.

[Strokes]

6 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

The whole burka argument is an absolute joke. 

 

You've got to be a right saddo to even give a shit, imo. 

 

If the woman wearing it has been oppressed into doing so then I disagree with it. 

 

If the woman wearing it is doing so out of choice then who the **** is anyone to question it. 

 

The whole premise of 'she might be wearing a bomb under there' or 'I can't see her face, it worries me' is just laughable. 

 

Walk past bare people wearing them in Leicester and walked past several today in Chamonix and you know what I thought about it? Absolutely ****ing nothing because its not my business and I'm not some tiny little insecure man who let's others choice of garment bother me in the slightest. 

I couldn’t care less either, if you’re asking, I think they look a bit silly and I feel pity if they are being oppressed but like you say, mostly I don’t even notice.

[Buce]

Just now, Strokes said:

In all fairness, I’ve not criticised Corbyn for antisemetism. 

And I agree with most of what you say. I think it was rude.

 

Neither are you making excuses for BoJo the Clown, but some are, and they'd be quick to condemn Corbyn in the circumstances I described.

[Izzy]

A bit daft by Boris really, the sort of stuff you'd expect from Trump. I imagine he thinks he's being funny but he's done himself no favours again.

 

If he's genuinely got aspirations on the top job then comments like this won't help his cause. Say what you like about TM but at least she chooses her words a bit more carefully as you'd expect from a senior politician. 

[Buce]

11 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

The whole burka argument is an absolute joke. 

 

You've got to be a right saddo to even give a shit, imo. 

 

If the woman wearing it has been oppressed into doing so then I disagree with it. 

 

If the woman wearing it is doing so out of choice then who the **** is anyone to question it. 

 

The whole premise of 'she might be wearing a bomb under there' or 'I can't see her face, it worries me' is just laughable. 

 

Walk past bare people wearing them in Leicester and walked past several today in Chamonix and you know what I thought about it? Absolutely ****ing nothing because its not my business and I'm not some tiny little insecure man who let's others choice of garment bother me in the slightest. 

 

The people who have a problem with it are the people whose idea of travelling doesn't extend beyond a week in Tenerife or Magaluf - they don't want to be exposed to different cultures, they just want it to be like England but sunny with cheap beer. Bunch of Little Englander saddos.

[breadandcheese]

Boris needs to think how he phrases things as we've seen how a politician can shape the type and manner of a discussion in a party. 

[Guest MattP]

As per usual, Majid Nawaz is spot on with the issue....

 

This is the uniform of medieval patriarchal tyranny. It victim-blames women for their beauty. Where this is enforced it symbolises violent misogyny. I’m not advocating banning this monstrosity but I refuse to defend it. It deserves to be ridiculed. Not the women inside it. 

 

Women defending this have Stockholm syndrome.  Liberals defending this are akin to conservatives defending the confederate flag. It is not racist to challenge religion (which is an idea, not a race). It is our civic duty. It is not offensive to remind everyone that this isn’t normal. It is offensive to advocate for this to become normalised. 

Oh, and blessed be the fruit.

[lifted*fox]

9 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

A bit daft by Boris really, the sort of stuff you'd expect from Trump. I imagine he thinks he's being funny but he's done himself no favours again.

 

I don't think this is an accident mate. Boris knows he has no chance at the top job and is now aligning with far right people like Bannon who will have most likely advised him to go in hard with the far right comments to try and muster up support in the way that Trump has in America. 

 

Boris is a top **** and will do anything to get more power. He's our Trump and he's being advised by the same people. You'd like to think it'd have no traction here but you can already see people jumping on-board with it in this very thread. 

 

Sad times. Sad times and dangerous times. 

[Max Wall]

4 hours ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

Well said Boris, re the burqa. I couldn't agree more.   We should be like France etc. and ban it. When passing them, they get a very stony stare from me. Just seeing their eyes, and not their face, is not acceptable, when they live in our country. If these witches want to wear it, then they should fvck off to where it is acceptable, This is Britain, and these damned people are not helping integration within our society.

 

I've said it before and I will say it again; BAN the Burqa.

Like we historically did with our colonies? We went to most countries and instilled our rules and way of living on them for the most part. 

We're really not in a position to get high and mighty about Burka's, that would make us hypocrites imo. 

Edited 7 August 2018 by Max Wall