Unpopular Opinions You Hold

[Benguin]

Just now, Facecloth said:

 

Actually no, forgot the video, don't use others to explain yourself. You said you didn't think athiest were immoral, just they couldn't justify their morals. To me that clearly thinks you mean although I can still be a good person with good morals, without God to back it up, I have no justification. 

Okay, what is your justification then? If we are atoms in motion, why is murder evil? 

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, Benguin said:

Okay, what is your justification then? If we are atoms in motion, why is murder evil? 

So hang on, me knowing that taking a life is evil because we have no right to end another person's life, and the hurt and pained caused by that to others, is less justified because I don't believe we were created by a deity, but you do have justification, because God created us and told you not to do it. 

 

I think the point is, I know things like murder and rape are wrong because I'm good. I know good from evil, and I know what right and wrong. Seemingly you only know that because God tells you so. I don't need him to as a back up for not being a ****, I just try not to be one. Like I said earlier, God tells you homosexuality is wrong, but its not, and as I good person I have my own mind and I don't oppose it. Whos morals are fairer out of the two? Whos has a negative impact on others lives?

[Dahnsouff]

Do not want to interrupt this interesting discussion, and perhaps it has been mentioned, but why is religion the only go to place for what we would regard as acceptable/ethical behaviour? It is a beneficial characteristic in modern society even devoid of religion.

[Benguin]

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

So hang on, me knowing that taking a life is evil because we have no right to end another person's life, and the hurt and pained caused by that to others, is less justified because I don't believe we were created by a deity, but you do have justification, because God created us and told you not to do it. 

 

I think the point is, I know things like murder and rape are wrong because I'm good. I know good from evil, and I know what right and wrong. Seemingly you only know that because God tells you so. I don't need him to as a back up for not being a ****, I just try not to be one. Like I said earlier, God tells you homosexuality is wrong, but its not, and as I good person I have my own mind and I don't oppose it. Whos morals are fairer out of the two? Whos has a negative impact on others lives?

By what standard do you know murder is wrong? Your own, your culture? 

[Benguin]

1 minute ago, Dahnsouff said:

Do not want to interrupt this interesting discussion, and perhaps it has been mentioned, but why is religion the only go to place for what we would regard as acceptable/ethical behaviour? It is a beneficial characteristic in modern society even devoid of religion.

It's a justification of what we know to be true. If God doesn't exist, where do morals come from? Ourselves? society? If that's the case, why are societies that do bad stuff wrong and we're right? Why isn't a murderers moral code right but yours is for example. 

[Facecloth]

2 minutes ago, Benguin said:

By what standard do you know murder is wrong? Your own, your culture? 

Are you actually gonna answer my question, or just keep asking me them?

[Facecloth]

3 minutes ago, Benguin said:

It's a justification of what we know to be true. If God doesn't exist, where do morals come from? Ourselves? society? If that's the case, why are societies that do bad stuff wrong and we're right? Why isn't a murderers moral code right but yours is for example. 

So if i say morals come from society, why are gods more justified? At the end of the day, the people who believed, even back in Jesus' time have never seen God, so its only the word of people like jesus that instilled those morals. You morals are from a society, same as mine are, I just don't use a god to justify them.

[Benguin]

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Are you actually gonna answer my question, or just keep asking me them?

You're making a lot of claims though that you'd need to demonstrate. You say you know it's wrong because you're good. What is good in your worldview? 

 

To answer your question, in a theistic worldview, there is an ultimate standard by which things are good and evil(God) in an atheistic worldview there cannot be an external, objective standard. Its just opinion. You think murder is wrong but why, in your worldview is a murders opinion in the matter not okay? Who determines this? 

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, Benguin said:

It's a justification of what we know to be true. If God doesn't exist, where do morals come from? Ourselves? society? If that's the case, why are societies that do bad stuff wrong and we're right? Why isn't a murderers moral code right but yours is for example. 

Ok, was curious. It is of value to be moral within society I would suggest. The structure/system you imply religion brings could easily be garnered from elsewhere. In the case of murder, child abuse it is from the word of law. This of course then raises the follow on question, how did law get to this belief/opinion?
 

Would in turn counter that with the fact that murder or child abuse bring about suffering within societal groups, that in itself is enough to shift the acceptability of such behaviours to undesirable and ultimately guides the formation of law or acceptable norms.

 

Anyway, apparently there is a game on soon 

[The Bear]

24 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Okay, what is your justification then? If we are atoms in motion, why is murder evil? 

Atoms can still produce sentience via evolution aka the human brain. One human killing another is deemed evil only by societies standards.

 

 

[Benguin]

Just now, Facecloth said:

So if i say morals come from society, why are gods more justified? At the end of the day, the people who believed, even back in Jesus' time have never seen God, so its only the word of people like jesus that instilled those morals. You morals are from a society, same as mine are, I just don't use a god to justify them.

The moral argument isn't an argument for the Christian worldview but an argument for. Gods existence in general. 

 

Societies change and differ. A thousand years ago, society thought slavery was okay. If objective morality does not exist, how can we explain this? 

[Benguin]

1 minute ago, The Bear said:

Atoms can still produce sentience via evolution aka the human brain. One human killing another is deemed evil only by societies standards.

 

 

This is the point I'm making. Murder cannot be absolutely and objectively immoral anytime any place, without God without God, we can only have opinions on the matter but not an absolute authority to say something is good or evil. 

[Benguin]

Anyway footballs on, back in a bit 

[The Bear]

There no such thing as good and evil. It's a human construct.

[Benguin]

43 minutes ago, The Bear said:

There no such thing as good and evil. It's a human construct.

This is what I'm getting at of course I think there is good and evil but if God doesn't exist, one must accept they live in a world where objective morality or as you put it, good and evil do not exist. 

[RumbleFox]

3 hours ago, Benguin said:

Okay, what is your justification then? If we are atoms in motion, why is murder evil? 

The golden rule has been around a lot longer than Jesus and in secularist thinking also. It’s plain that nursery is wrong, if you need, why would you need a god to tell you that? 

[Dr The Singh]

2 hours ago, Benguin said:

You're making a lot of claims though that you'd need to demonstrate. You say you know it's wrong because you're good. What is good in your worldview? 

 

To answer your question, in a theistic worldview, there is an ultimate standard by which things are good and evil(God) in an atheistic worldview there cannot be an external, objective standard. Its just opinion. You think murder is wrong but why, in your worldview is a murders opinion in the matter not okay? Who determines this? 

What about the homosexuality bit?

[RumbleFox]

2 hours ago, Benguin said:

The moral argument isn't an argument for the Christian worldview but an argument for. Gods existence in general. 

 

Societies change and differ. A thousand years ago, society thought slavery was okay. If objective morality does not exist, how can we explain this? 

The bible also says slavery is ok? As long as you treat them well? Societies and beliefs change because cultures and peoples grow and learn. Religions change because they are forced to by said societies and human enlightenment. X 

Edited 19 July 2020 by RumbleFox

[Benguin]

2 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

The golden rule has been around a lot longer than Jesus and in secularist thinking also. It’s plain that nursery is wrong, if you need, why would you need a god to tell you that? 

Well of course, it's been here for all the time we have existed in my worldview. The question is, by what standard are you grounding it in your worldview? 

[Dr The Singh]

1 minute ago, RumbleFox said:

The bible also says slavery is ok? As long as you treat them well? Societies and beliefs change because cultures and peoples grow and learn. Religions changed because they are forced to but said societies. X 

Really, shocking.  This treating them well is just nonsense.  I can't imagine a superior conscience or god would deem that acceptable

[Benguin]

2 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

What about the homosexuality bit?

What about it? Are you asking me whether I think it's wrong, or are you applying a worldview where objective. Morality exists to refute objective moral duties? 

[Dr The Singh]

Just now, Benguin said:

What about it? Are you asking me whether I think it's wrong, or are you applying a worldview where objective. Morality exists to refute objective moral duties? 

Response to what Facecloth said, you seemed to have not responded to it.

[Benguin]

4 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

The bible also says slavery is ok? As long as you treat them well? Societies and beliefs change because cultures and peoples grow and learn. Religions changed because they are forced to but said societies. X 

This is a deflection in the debate. But if you are wandering I reccomend the late. Ravi Zacharias on this matter, he articulates it way better than I can. https://www.zachariastrust.org/does-the-bible-condone-slavery

[RumbleFox]

8 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Well of course, it's been here for all the time we have existed in my worldview. The question is, by what standard are you grounding it in your worldview? 

That for a society to flourish suffering must be kept to a minimum, a society with the least suffering is closer to ideal than one with lots. Human suffering is, on the whole, lessened by fewer acts such as murder, etc. Of course there may well be examples where murder is in fact ethical as we are nuanced beings and things are never black and white (as a very basic example of you killed a man to save 20 children, etc). 

 

On a more basic level, with all your philosophical floweryness and kind puzzles design to tie people up in semantics aside. Let’s get away from the “right and wrong” for a moment and may I ask you what proof you have for your god?  X 

Edited 19 July 2020 by RumbleFox

[Benguin]

1 minute ago, Dr The Singh said:

Response to what Facecloth said, you seemed to have not responded to it.

I have responded to it. This isn't a question of whether the biblical God existed all though I'm happy to debate that. If ANY god does not exist and atheism is true, how can Facecloth or anyone else for that matter know of an absolute standard by which to determine good or evil? Whilst I disagree on the inference with the homosexuality bit, even if the Christian God was not true or the provider of objective morality this problem still stands and the athiest has to either accept objective moral values cannot exist or change their worldview. (or deflect, which is probably the most common response.)