Catalan Election Spanish Police Again

[Foxes1]

How do the politics in Spain work then. You have a central government and also (So I believe) Catalonia's regional government. Does it work like the GB and NI government where London is central government and Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own governments.

[Innovindil]

4 minutes ago, Foxes1 said:

How do the politics in Spain work then. You have a central government and also (So I believe) Catalonia's regional government. Does it work like the GB and NI government where London is central government and Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own governments.

Yup. The Catalan government, like the NI, Scotland and Wales have their own things to govern over, but they only get them from the central Spanish government, like ours get them from the UK government. 

[Foxes1]

3 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Yup. The Catalan government, like the NI, Scotland and Wales have their own things to govern over, but they only get them from the central Spanish government, like ours get them from the UK government. 

Thanks.

[Alf Bentley]

Decent article about the history - and rise - of Catalan and Spanish nationalism: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/world/europe/catalan-independence-referendum.html

 

I hope the two sides find a way to reduce tensions or things could escalate in a very unpleasant direction.

Neither the brutality of the Spanish police nor the clumsy, pro-Madrid intervention of the King were exactly helpful....but I can see a unilateral declaration of Catalan independence making it even worse.

 

As an outsider, the best thing would seem to be for the Catalans to be given a greater degree of devolution within Spain and for their grievances to be negotiated over seriously.

 

But I can understand Madrid's reluctance. The whole post-Franco settlement made Spain a highly devolved nation state with the "State of the Autonomies" devolving power to every region (though more to Catalonia, Basque Country, Galicia etc.).

If Catalonia gets more powers, other autonomous regions will want more, too. Then again, the brutality of the police and partisan intervention of the King just reminds the Catalans of the Franco era - and why Spain was converted from one of Europe's most centralised nations to one of its least centralised. I hope someone with a bit of wisdom steps forward or trouble could get serious. Can't see Rajoy being that man - he seems like a right bonehead. 

 

[Webbo]

 

Can somebody tell this bloke's hair dresser that John Lennon is dead and it's not 1964 any more.

[AKCJ]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

 

Can somebody tell this bloke's hair dresser that John Lennon is dead and it's not 1964 any more.

Give us an a sec pal I’ll WhatsApp him

[Guest MattP]

Catalan independence declared by the parliament. 

 

All a bit mental, totally mishandled by both sides. Can see this descending into complete chaos.

[TheUltimateWinner]

The next few days are going to be very interesting...

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, TheUltimateWinner said:

The next few days are going to be very interesting...

Spain will invoke Article 155 almost immediately I'd imagine. 

[Harry - LCFC]

An illegal vote that was disrupted by the police and boycotted by 'remain' voters cannot be considered a mandate for independence. It's undemocratic of the Catalan parliament to act as they've done.

 

We can of course expect a show of authority by the Spanish government again and this time it will be justified.

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Spain will invoke Article 155 almost immediately I'd imagine. 

Excuse my ignorance but what does article 155 contain and what repercussions would be likely from it?

[Strokes]

48 minutes ago, Harry - LCFC said:

 

We can of course expect a show of authority by the Spanish government again and this time it will be justified.

Thats a broad statement, what do you mean exactly? Sending in the military? Police brutality? Surely a rejection and diplomatic solutions are still the best response and anything else is unjust.

[Innovindil]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Thats a broad statement, what do you mean exactly? Sending in the military? Police brutality? Surely a rejection and diplomatic solutions are still the best response and anything else is unjust.

He means activating that article 155, which means Madrid would take control of the Catalan government and other stuff. Not sending in the troops. 

 

(I hope.)

[Harry - LCFC]

As Innovindil said, I expect the central government to step in and take autonomy away from the Catalan government on a temporary basis.

 

Yes, I was a little unclear in my initial post. Apologies.

[m4DD0gg]

Nuke em

[Alf Bentley]

It's a difficult situation that's been mishandled on both sides.

For some time, the Catalans have been trying to get a legal referendum, but that's in the gift of Madrid and they've consistently refused - hence the illegal referendum.

 

Would the rest of Spain ever agree to Catalonia leaving? Particularly as it's about the most prosperous part of Spain.

It's almost like the rest of England having a veto on whether London & the SE is allowed to leave the UK.....not that extreme, but similar.

 

Madrid would surely have been better advised to have allowed a legal referendum, but to have prepared the conditions well.

They could have demanded a high turnout and a high percentage vote in favour.

They could also have offered carrots and sticks: e.g. concessions on greater devolution, on the one hand, but getting their EU mates to make it clear that an independent Catalonia wouldn't be guaranteed admission to the EU.

That may sound cynical, but would surely have been better than what this is going to lead to - massive resentment within Spain and trouble in the streets, as a minimum, I presume.

 

Mind you, I don't really get the point of nationalism in these times when global capital is so dominant. Why make yourself smaller and less able to withstand their power?

It would make sense if there was serious oppression going on - as there was in Franco's day - but has Madrid done anything that bad, which cannot be resolved by campaigns for greater devolution and rights within Spain? 

[Strokes]

25 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

It's a difficult situation that's been mishandled on both sides.

For some time, the Catalans have been trying to get a legal referendum, but that's in the gift of Madrid and they've consistently refused - hence the illegal referendum.

 

Would the rest of Spain ever agree to Catalonia leaving? Particularly as it's about the most prosperous part of Spain.

It's almost like the rest of England having a veto on whether London & the SE is allowed to leave the UK.....not that extreme, but similar.

 

Madrid would surely have been better advised to have allowed a legal referendum, but to have prepared the conditions well.

They could have demanded a high turnout and a high percentage vote in favour.

They could also have offered carrots and sticks: e.g. concessions on greater devolution, on the one hand, but getting their EU mates to make it clear that an independent Catalonia wouldn't be guaranteed admission to the EU.

That may sound cynical, but would surely have been better than what this is going to lead to - massive resentment within Spain and trouble in the streets, as a minimum, I presume.

 

Mind you, I don't really get the point of nationalism in these times when global capital is so dominant. Why make yourself smaller and less able to withstand their power?

It would make sense if there was serious oppression going on - as there was in Franco's day - but has Madrid done anything that bad, which cannot be resolved by campaigns for greater devolution and rights within Spain? 

Identity and sovereignty is more important to some.

[Strokes]

45 minutes ago, Harry - LCFC said:

As Innovindil said, I expect the central government to step in and take autonomy away from the Catalan government on a temporary basis.

 

Yes, I was a little unclear in my initial post. Apologies.

I think my lack of knowledge of article 155 aided my misinterpretation of your post, but thanks for clarification.

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Identity and sovereignty is more important to some.

Even when the results could well be disastrous?

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, Strokes said:

Excuse my ignorance but what does article 155 contain and what repercussions would be likely from it?

Direct rule and anything could be the result of it.

 

Invoking articles is cool now, we did that, if you have an article lying about whatever it is start a rumour about invoking it and watch the masses shit themselves.

 

From a selfish point of view it's a bonus for us, if this carries on to actual independence Brexit isn't even the biggest problem for the EU. They'll have to get involved and like everything they get involved in they'll totally screw it up.

[The Doctor]

9 minutes ago, MattP said:

Direct rule and anything could be the result of it.

 

Invoking articles is cool now, we did that, if you have an article lying about whatever it is start a rumour about invoking it and watch the masses shit themselves.

 

From a selfish point of view it's a bonus for us, if this carries on to actual independence Brexit isn't even the biggest problem for the EU. They'll have to get involved and like everything they get involved in they'll totally screw it up.

How would that be a good thing, presumably that would divert attention away from Brexit negotiations and reduce our chances of getting a deal in place?

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, The Doctor said:

How would that be a good thing, presumably that would divert attention away from Brexit negotiations and reduce our chances of getting a deal in place?

The more problems you have the less problems you need. It should increase our chances of getting a decent deal as the last thing the EU will want is trying to appease a poor trading with nations whilst also fighting to keep Spain together and onside.

 

With the potential Italian banking crisis Brexit could be number 3 on the list, the less important it is to them I'd imagine the less important it would be to.show everyone how they have done us over.

[GaelicFox]

[Guest MattP]

Some of the Brexiteers online are behaving terribly, demanding May recognise it to upset the EU, I don't know how anyone can take pleasure in seeing a country potentially fall apart.

 

That dopey Welsh bint from Plaid has decided to recognise the independence as well. Idiot.

[Sampson]

43 minutes ago, MattP said:

Some of the Brexiteers online are behaving terribly, demanding May recognise it to upset the EU, I don't know how anyone can take pleasure in seeing a country potentially fall apart.

 

That dopey Welsh bint from Plaid has decided to recognise the independence as well. Idiot.

I'm waiting for Corbyn to pipe up on the issue.

 

There's really no other option May could've taken. You cannot really say you support an illegal referendum (in which so many people abstained so it's clearly not a fairly representative result anyway) in a fellow Western country without being torn to shreds - maybe in the future, but how any leader can really recognise their independence at this stage is silly when the whole thing could die down in 2 weeks time and everyone gets on with it. It would be like recognising Yugoslavia the second Gavrilo Princip shot Franz Ferdinand.

 

The Spanish government and their police violence was horrific and they're taking a huge risk with this removal of autonomy. At the same time, I imagine there are so many people in Catalonia who just want it over with one way or the other so they can get on with their lives. No one wants to see anymore violence like that.