Capital punishment

[FoxesDeb]

22 minutes ago, Line-X said:

My best friend was followed at night on her way to the pub and was dragged down to a river bank and had her throat slit under a bridge. The killer worked at Safeway supermarket as a butcher and used one of the knives to commit the crime. His name was Ian McCartney and the murder happened in 1991 in Bedford. He got less than ten years. I think about her every day. I still cannot bring myself to visit the grave. 

 

What makes the state so pure that it has the right to take life? Look at the record of governments throughout history—so often operating with deception, cruelty and greed, so often becoming masters of the citizens they are supposed to serve. "Forbidding a man's execution," Camus said, "would amount to proclaiming publicly that society and the state are not absolute values." - it would be tantamount to acknowledging, correctly, that there are some things that even the state may not do. Capital punishment is a dark path and there is a reason that it still endures in largely undemocratic nations.

 

Respectfully, I think rather than sounding off on a football forum you should humbly reconsider David Guiza's eloquent and informative post. 

 

I wanted to 'like' your post, based on the latter part, but it seems inappropriate given the first part. I'm genuinely sorry for your loss. 

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, the fox said:

Which is sad because many prosecutors will look at the man standing in front of them as a criminal no matter if he did it or not. But if pleading for a minor thing instead of taking a chance to go to court for a case that could end your career by mistake and misjudgment than i can't really say i'm against it

Yeah, exactly. If you're an innocent party who gets picked up for whatever reason and is suddenly looking at either three months for a certainty if you cop a plea or ten years if it goes to a jury and your lawyer doesn't deliver...which one would you pick?

 

So yeah, I'd rather the option not be available at all.

Edited 25 February 2018 by leicsmac

[FoxesDeb]

6 minutes ago, the fox said:

No, absolutely not!  I'm not blaming the parents here and never did.

 

But what did the son do exactly? Did he kill by mistake? Did he kill in the heat of the moment? If so than i'm not calling for the death penalty.

 

It seems that for some, the moment they see people who say "yes" for the death penalty think that they want every crimenal to die.

 

My main problem (from the start mind you) is child killers and rapists. if (hypothetically speaking here) you had a son who raped and killed 2 12 year old girls, would you feel sorry for him? if so then.....

I have never said I would feel anything like sorry for them, of course not, but I don't believe any government has the right to take their life. I believe in imprisonment, possibly with reform where possible, but I don't believe in the DP for reasons I've stated earlier, quite clearly. 

[the fox]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, exactly. If you're looking at either three months for a certainty if you cop a plea or ten years if it goes to a jury and your lawyer doesn't deliver...which one would you pick?

 

So yeah, I'd rather the option not be available at all.

I get where you're coming from, mac. If that ain't an option anymore, prosecutors will work harder because it seems that they will offer a deal the moment they get the chance instead of trying to get the right verdict.

 

I wasn't really against it but when you look at the totality of it, it's better to not have it because that will propel the prosecutors to work harder instead of the lazy way of doing it.

[Benguin]

No.

 

- it cost more assuming we do not regress in human rights. 

 

- it's not really justice for families of victims as they are reminded of the crime upon every appeal and a lot of times the penalty would be lowered to life.

 

- two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Castration for pedophiles and serial rapists and life for murderers is about as far as I would be happy to go.

[the fox]

4 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

I have never said I would feel anything like sorry for them, of course not, but I don't believe any government has the right to take their life. I believe in imprisonment, possibly with reform where possible, but I don't believe in the DP for reasons I've stated earlier, quite clearly. 

Yeah, and i respect your point of view.
I look at the death penalty as a "tell off" instead of a "punishment". There are psychos in this world who don't care if they live or die but, for those who can be stopped under the threat of ending their life than why not.

I know it's not the most "humane" thing in the world but just cramming people in prison, psychos who can kill an inmate that was in for a minor crime or can get out after sometime like that guy from leicester who raped and killed 2 little girls than what's the point.

[Buce]

 

There are some very interesting and thought-provoking posts being made.

 

Personally, I feel very torn about what I think. I would say I lean toward us not having it, for all the good reasons put forward by those who are against it. But then I think of the people who rape and kill children and suddenly it doesn't seem so clear to me. Those people are beyond rehabilitation, beyond understanding, beyond forgiveness. I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep if we executed that category of murderer, and if we are not going to then I want life to mean life.

[FoxesDeb]

Just now, the fox said:

Yeah, and i respect your point of view.
I look at the death penalty as a "tell off" instead of a "punishment". There are psychos in this world who don't care if they live or die but, for those who can be stopped under the threat of ending their life than why not.

I know it's not the most "humane" thing in the world but just cramming people in prison, psychos who can kill an inmate that was in for a minor crime or can get out after sometime like that guy from leicester who raped and killed 2 little girls than what's the point.

That actually made me laugh out loud 

 

I'm interested in your point of view too, it's what makes debating interesting 

I'm going to have to leave it for now though, I'm trying to watch the karaoke cup final or whatever it is, and cook a roast dinner, but I may come back to it later 

[FoxesDeb]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

There are some very interesting and thought-provoking posts being made.

 

Personally, I feel very torn about what I think. I would say I lean toward us not having it, for all the good reasons put forward by those who are against it. But then I think of the people who rape and kill children and suddenly it doesn't seem so clear to me. Those people are beyond rehabilitation, beyond understanding, beyond forgiveness. I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep if we executed that category of murderer, and if we are not going to then I want life to mean life.

But life does mean life, with reform taken into account, so I thought. As far as I understand, people in the UK who get let out on parole are still on licence, so any recurrence of crime means that they are imprisoned again. And obviously we have a small number who are deemed to be beyond reform who have no chance of release, and I think they are mainly in mental health institutions.  I may be wrong though, and wait to be corrected 

[Buce]

13 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

But life does mean life, with reform taken into account, so I thought. As far as I understand, people in the UK who get let out on parole are still on licence, so any recurrence of crime means that they are imprisoned again. And obviously we have a small number who are deemed to be beyond reform who have no chance of release, and I think they are mainly in mental health institutions.  I may be wrong though, and wait to be corrected 

1

 

I don't agree when it comes to men who rape and murder children - we cannot risk the life of another child.

 

There are very few crimes that I couldn't find some kind of forgiveness for, but that is one of them.

[m4DD0gg]

100%  yes

[Mike Oxlong]

100% no

[the fox]

14 minutes ago, m4DD0gg said:

100%  yes

ayyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

 

[FoxesDeb]

18 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I don't agree when it comes to men who rape and murder children - we cannot risk the life of another child.

 

There are very few crimes that I couldn't find some kind of forgiveness for, but that is one of them.

I find it interesting that you refer to men, women are equally as capable of committing sexual abuse and murder of children, see Myra Hindley. @Izzy MuzzettIdon't know the statistics, but I don't think many people released on parole go on to commit murder, I myself still can't justify that against the DP though. Jon Venables is someone who comes to mind, obviously his crime was horrific, and on release he has been found to still be looking up child pornogrophy, so has been recalled to prison. He is still under his sentence though, and living in a democratic and decent society I still believe that is the right thing to do. 

[FoxesDeb]

No idea why Izzy has popped up in my post, sorry 

[Izzy]

3 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

No idea why Izzy has popped up in my post, sorry 

That's O.K. Deb, I know I'm often in your thoughts 

 

Now is dinner ready yet or what? 

[the fox]

1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

That's O.K. Deb, I know I'm often in your thoughts 

 

Now is dinner ready yet or what? 

 

1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

That's O.K. Deb, I know I'm often in your thoughts 

 

Now is dinner ready yet or what? 

 

1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

That's O.K. Deb, I know I'm often in your thoughts 

 

Now is dinner ready yet or what? 

 

1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

That's O.K. Deb, I know I'm often in your thoughts 

 

Now is dinner ready yet or what? 

 

1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

That's O.K. Deb, I know I'm often in your thoughts 

 

Now is dinner ready yet or what? 

 

1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

That's O.K. Deb, I know I'm often in your thoughts 

 

Now is dinner ready yet or what? 

 

1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

That's O.K. Deb, I know I'm often in your thoughts 

 

Now is dinner ready yet or what? 

says the guy with 7 identical comments! and don't blame it on the forum multiplying your replies or anything

[FoxesDeb]

1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

That's O.K. Deb, I know I'm often in your thoughts 

 

Now is dinner ready yet or what? 

Yes just eating now with my fork in one hand and my phone in the other. Proper down with my kids, me 

[Buce]

17 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

I find it interesting that you refer to men, women are equally as capable of committing sexual abuse and murder of children, see Myra Hindley. @Izzy MuzzettIdon't know the statistics, but I don't think many people released on parole go on to commit murder, I myself still can't justify that against the DP though. Jon Venables is someone who comes to mind, obviously his crime was horrific, and on release he has been found to still be looking up child pornogrophy, so has been recalled to prison. He is still under his sentence though, and living in a democratic and decent society I still believe that is the right thing to do. 

3

 

That is simply not true. In fact, it is so rare that their names are easily recalled by all - even those who weren't alive when those crimes were committed (I'm making assumptions about your age here). Aside from Hindley and Rose West (both of whom you will note committed their crimes with men), what others are there?

 

Venables was a child himself and his offence wasn't exacerbated by a sexual offence, so I have no problem with his release after rehabilitation.

[FoxesDeb]

3 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

That is simply not true. In fact, it is so rare that their names are easily recalled by all - even those who weren't alive when those crimes were committed (I'm making assumptions about your age here). Aside from Hindley and Rose West (both of whom you will note committed their crimes with men), what others are there?

 

Venables was a child himself and his offence wasn't exacerbated by a sexual offence, so I have no problem with his release after rehabilitation.

Maybe I should have omitted the word 'equally'. And I'm not much younger than you I don't think. There are many stories in the news about women murdering their children, it's just interesting that you refer to men. But not really relevant. 

I'm not sure where I read it, but I'm pretty sure that Jon Venables and his accomplice did despicable, sexually related things to Jamie? 

 

[Buce]

5 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Maybe I should have omitted the word 'equally'

 

 

No maybe about it.

 

5 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

 

 

. And I'm not much younger than you I don't think.

 

 

Regardless, I'm pretty sure you don't remember Hindley's conviction first hand, yet you know her name.

 

I bet there are a hundred male child rapists and murderers who you've never heard of.

 

5 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

 

There are many stories in the news about women murdering their children, it's just interesting that you refer to men.

 

 

Possibly (though I can't actually think of any) but how many abduct, rape and murder other people's children?

 

It really is a man thing.

 

 

[FoxesDeb]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

No maybe about it.

 

 

Regardless, I'm pretty sure you don't remember Hindley's conviction first hand, yet you know her name.

 

I bet there are a hundred male child rapists and murderers who you've never heard of.

 

 

Possibly (though I can't actually think of any) but how many abduct, rape and murder other people's children?

 

It really is a man thing.

 

 

I'm pretty sure there are many more than that! 

 

Are you always this hostile, or is it just when people don't agree with you? 

 

 

[Manwell Pablo]

17 hours ago, the fox said:

Yeah, and i respect your point of view.
I look at the death penalty as a "tell off" instead of a "punishment". There are psychos in this world who don't care if they live or die but, for those who can be stopped under the threat of ending their life than why not.

I know it's not the most "humane" thing in the world but just cramming people in prison, psychos who can kill an inmate that was in for a minor crime or can get out after sometime like that guy from leicester who raped and killed 2 little girls than what's the point.

 

I'm confused here despite being told  the death penalty is statistically proven to be no less a deterrent than life imprisonment on at least 5 different occasions you seem to persist with argument that it is. 

 

And as I told you at the time Colin Pitchfork had not been released from prison when that silly thread about his "release" was posted on here , he's was moved to an open prison awaiting (another) parole review and to my knowledge that's still the case.

 

I've just done a bit of research into Algerian capital punishment and you have about a thousand prisoners on death row and not a single execution for over a decade? Is this not an indication of what a farse it is?

[lifted*fox]

I think people also seem to forget that many people who go on to commit serious crime - murder / rape, etc. have probably already comes to terms with the fact that life in prison is a distinct possibility and they've chosen to go ahead and commit the crime anyway. the death penalty will be no further deterrent. if you've made the choice that your life-long freedom is of no consequence when committing these crimes then being dead is probably of no lesser consequence either. 

 

the human mind is a complex thing - people are born with mental defects, loose wires, if you will. people might be born perfectly well but their life situation - poor upbringings, abuse from their family, poverty and it's consequences can send them down the wrong path, they become unhinged, detached from society, in with the wrong crowd.

 

creating more prisons and sending people to their death isn't going to stop the above from happening. we need to invest money into educating people better (not less), identifying mental health issues and treating them earlier. we need to invest money into helping young people find the right path - escape from gang culture, escape from abusive homes. invest money into programs to help troubled people back on the right track. 

 

it's prevention we need to invest in, not cure.

[RonnieTodger]

Generally no, but if I read that Ian Huntley was murdered in prison I'd be delighted so I'm a bit of a hypocrite. 

 

My main issue is because (like David Guiza said) there are so many blurred lines to cases and the chances of anyone being acquitted after wrongful imprisonment would be slashed. Although, I do have a complete lack of faith in our judicial system and the thought of a cold blooded murderer walking the streets 10-15 years after their victim was put in the ground is just wrong. 

 

Even if they walk out a completely different person, there's always the injustice that they can live life as a new person and their victim can't. Having said that, the same could be said for an accidental killing like a drunk-driver and sentencing them to death would be ridiculous.

 

I don't understand the finances behind the death row process and have read that it could cost more than to house them in prison. I just wish we were a bit tougher.

Edited 26 February 2018 by RonnieTodger