Guest MattP Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 1 minute ago, Fox Ulike said: I don't know. Are the UAE using British bombs on civilians? If so then, yes, I would support stopping weapons sales to them too. The UAE are part of the Saudi led coalition. What about the Saudi's targetting Iranian backed militia or intelligence in Yemen?
Fox Ulike Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 1 minute ago, Beechey said: Unfortunately it's a necessity for national security. Ceasing the trading of weapons from UK businesses means they get rid of staff and we lose vital know-how. We were due to lose 2,000 staff from BAE's Eurofighter line before the sale to Saudi Arabia. The only alternative it upping the UK's purchases to keep the people in work. Yeah I get that. For me though, British jobs isn't a good enough reason to support bombing people in their homes.
Fox Ulike Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 1 minute ago, Foxin_mad said: Who funds the job losses and cuts in public services then? Who cares? Innocent people are being bombed. This isn't a 'right or wrong' argument. As in most things it's a moral choice. 2,000 British jobs on one hand versus 10,000 dead Yemenis on the other. All I think is that you should face up to what's going on in the World and know the consequences of the choice that you support. I'm prepared to accept the job losses for my choice, are you prepared to accept the deaths in yours? http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-03/20/c_137052862.htm
Guest MattP Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 4 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said: Yeah I get that. For me though, British jobs isn't a good enough reason to support bombing people in their homes. You genuinely believe us selling weapons to the Saudi's equates to us supporting the bombing of innocent civilians in their homes? Jesus
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 4 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said: Factcheck. Corbyn has called on us to stop selling weapons to the Saudis, not trading with them. The US isn't our most important trading partner, the EU is. So he's right there. I couldn't find anything about an Israeli boycott, but I did find an article called: "Jeremy Corbyn does not support boycott of Israel". https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/13/jeremy-corbyn-does-not-support-boycott-of-israel-bds-movement 0 out of 3. Why do you consistently get these things wrong?? Was there any facts in the fact check? Or Whichever way you look at it. If we stop selling them arms, probably our biggest trade with them it will probably piss them off a bit. The US is the most important single nation trade partner, globally. https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/bulletins/exportsandimportsstatisticsbycountryforuktradeinservices/quarter2aprtojun2017 On Israel https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-labour-leader-pushed-for-bans-boycotts-of-israel-letters-show/ Clearly is all a matter of opinion. There are no facts, certainly a Guardian article is not a fact check. I wouldn't say I have anything wrong but clearly some are unable to see a flaw in their great leader, which is ok.
breadandcheese Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 10 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said: OK well you've just read it according to your view of Corbyn as a 'useful idiot'. There's not a lot I can do to debate against your pre-existing prejudices, especially since you don't offer any examples of Corbyn's 'horrible groups' or 'friends'. The famous event he hosted in parliament where he invited his "friends" Hamas and Hezbollah is probably the best example. But you could also list his friendship with IRA terrorists. I'm not going to give Corbyn the benefit of the doubt on this as he did nothing to advance the Northern Irish peace process. There isn't one instance where Corbyn is cited as having helped to advance that process. Or you could look at his ability to turn a blind eye to and inability to challenge antisemitism in some factions of his supporter base as they agree with his cause (the countless rallies, Facebook groups he's been on where he's done little to challenge it). Try and ignore it as pre-existing prejudices of Corbyn, but I think you'll find it's his record that speaks for itself. It's ironic that those who scream that Trump is unfit for office fail to see that Corbyn is just as unfit.
Fox Ulike Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 1 minute ago, MattP said: You genuinely believe us selling weapons to the Saudi's equates to us supporting the bombing of innocent civilians in their homes? Jesus Well what do you believe? If you think it can be justified then say so. Posting laughing faces at people complaining about Britain's involvement in the Yemeni war doesn't make a very strong case.
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 8 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said: Who cares? Innocent people are being bombed. This isn't a 'right or wrong' argument. As in most things it's a moral choice. 2,000 British jobs on one hand versus 10,000 dead Yemenis on the other. All I think is that you should face up to what's going on in the World and know the consequences of the choice that you support. I'm prepared to accept the job losses for my choice, are you prepared to accept the deaths in yours? http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-03/20/c_137052862.htm How many deaths could closing down vital services in the UK that we could no longer afford cause? If we stop dealing with every dubious nation, where does the money come from, how do we fund it? I'm not saying its necessarily correct but I want to know the solution. If our hospitals and schools suffer as a result do you accept that? People in your local area dying? There are many dodgy regimes in the world, all killing people needlessly. Unfortunately the reality is in certain places there is little we can do.
Fox Ulike Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 2 minutes ago, breadandcheese said: The famous event he hosted in parliament where he invited his "friends" Hamas and Hezbollah is probably the best example. But you could also list his friendship with IRA terrorists. I'm not going to give Corbyn the benefit of the doubt on this as he did nothing to advance the Northern Irish peace process. There isn't one instance where Corbyn is cited as having helped to advance that process. Or you could look at his ability to turn a blind eye to and inability to challenge antisemitism in some factions of his supporter base as they agree with his cause (the countless rallies, Facebook groups he's been on where he's done little to challenge it). Try and ignore it as pre-existing prejudices of Corbyn, but I think you'll find it's his record that speaks for itself. It's ironic that those who scream that Trump is unfit for office fail to see that Corbyn is just as unfit. OK. And how does that differ from what I said five minutes ago? "I think Corbyn's philosophy is consistent regardless of whether he's talking about Putin, Trump, the IRA or any other oppressive or violent group. That is, you can't just pretend that they don't exist by ignoring them"
Fox Ulike Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 3 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: How many deaths could closing down vital services in the UK that we could no longer afford cause? If we stop dealing with every dubious nation, where does the money come from, how do we fund it? OK well let's explore it. How much money does arms sales to Saudi Arabia bring to the UK economy each year?
Countryfox Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 3 minutes ago, breadandcheese said: It's ironic that those who scream that Trump is unfit for office fail to see that Corbyn is just as unfit. In all honesty (and this has nothing to do with politics) neither of them are fit to run a carwash let alone a country .. if Putin manages to get Jezza in as well, then he may well have created the perfect storm ...
Beechey Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 7 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said: Well what do you believe? If you think it can be justified then say so. Posting laughing faces at people complaining about Britain's involvement in the Yemeni war doesn't make a very strong case. Just curious, would you support the UK upping its defence spending to offset the weapons selling to SA? Would solve both problems in one go, and would only require a spending increase of £1-2bn.
Strokes Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 5 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said: OK well let's explore it. How much money does arms sales to Saudi Arabia bring to the UK economy each year? Tbh I kind of agree with you but I’d be more convinced if not selling bombs meant there would be less bombs dropped. Unfortunately it just means we lose jobs and money but with the same end result of fatalities, as some other country would fill the gap we left.
Guest Kopfkino Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said: I see cuddly Corbyn says that we still need to deal with Russia on the basis of UK Values. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43463161 What about the US, Saudi Arabia and Israel, can we not deal with them on the basis of UK Values to? Shall we allow the president of our most important trading partner to visit us on the basis that we adhere to our own values? According to Corbyn its ok to take dirty money as long as it is on the basis of UK Values. But only if its a regime he doesn't disagree with?! When will people see through this clown? I asked the Russians be given a sample so that they can say categorically one way or the other. What is he going to do when they say it's nothing to do with them? Doesn't trust our own intelligence services but Russia tells the truth.
breadandcheese Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 1 minute ago, Fox Ulike said: OK. And how does that differ from what I said five minutes ago? "I think Corbyn's philosophy is consistent regardless of whether he's talking about Putin, Trump, the IRA or any other oppressive or violent group. That is, you can't just pretend that they don't exist by ignoring them" It's more in response to your next paragraph about not having to like them or rolling out the red carpet. I think Corbyn does all these things for some pretty nefarious groups and individuals. You have to deal with whoever has power - legitimate power or otherwise, but you don't have to like them, and you shouldn't roll out the red carpet for them (literally with Trump). To be fair I don't think that the Conservatives are too different in that respect (apart from the Trump lovers)lover It's one thing to have to deal with these groups but there are ways and means. The negotiations with the IRA are a case in point. When negotiating the peace process or having contact with the IRA, not once did you get the impression that the governments or politicians involved with the process were craven or treating them as friends.
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 9 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said: OK well let's explore it. How much money does arms sales to Saudi Arabia bring to the UK economy each year? I can see figures of 1.1 Billion for 1/2 a year online no idea of the accuracy, call it 2 billion annually, that's a good chunk but we are not just talking the Saudis. If we going to do it properly we have to be consistent across the board. We would also have to draw up a list of countries that we purchase products from for example 'Russian Gas'. Are the funds from this used to fund a military that can illegally annex part of a another sovereign nation and kill innocent Ukrainians? Possibly, should we stop buying Russian Gas? Perhaps There are a whole host of nations we trade with we could look at, even Spain? Their treatment of the Catalonians was pretty horrific, the EU supported the action of the Spanish government, should we trade with the EU? Spain? It really depends how far you want to take it I guess. For me its simpler to just look at it from a UK point of view, we sell stuff, people buy it what they do with it is their moral choice not ours. We buy stuff and give them money, what they do with the money is our moral choice not ours. We would of course all like a perfect world, but in reality it does exist and probably ever will we just have to live our lives and do what we can.
Carl the Llama Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 14 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: He seems to have a bit of a thing for the Soviet Union. Its fine it suits his agenda. Why wont he just admit it! https://libcom.org/history/i-am-concerned-break-soviet-union-leadership-it-gave-jeremy-corbyns-words-wisdom-stalini Yeah I've no idea how you can praise the Soviet Union for being anti-imperialist when it was imperial in all but name itself. What I will say though is I get the impression he's talking more from the pov of it essentially ended the chances of any state developing a workable form of pure Socialism than from the pov of the CCCP being great thing in of itself, which it clearly wasn't though I will agree he is remarkably soft on them. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting though. Just to clarify I'm not saying there's a way of making pure socialism work, obviously there isn't, I'm just giving my interpretation.
Guest MattP Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 3 minutes ago, Kopfkino said: What is he going to do when they say it's nothing to do with them? Doesn't trust our own intelligence services but Russia tells the truth. Yep, as soon as Russia says it wasn't them it's case closed Don't forget Jeremy has already been correct on foreign policy though, if you ignore the Cold War, Northern Ireland, Kosovo, Bosnia, Kuwait, Afghanistan, Sierra Leone, East Timor, Cuba, Iran, Venezuela, Georgia, South Ossetia and Lebanon he's been on the right side of history every single time.
Beechey Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 3 minutes ago, MattP said: Yep, as soon as Russia says it wasn't them it's case closed Don't forget Jeremy has already been correct on foreign policy though, if you ignore the Cold War, Northern Ireland, Kosovo, Bosnia, Kuwait, Afghanistan, Sierra Leone, East Timor, Cuba, Iran, Venezuela, Georgia, South Ossetia and Lebanon he's been on the right side of history every single time. But, but... But Iraq and WMD's!
Fox Ulike Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 2 minutes ago, breadandcheese said: It's more in response to your next paragraph about not having to like them or rolling out the red carpet. I think Corbyn does all these things for some pretty nefarious groups and individuals. You have to deal with whoever has power - legitimate power or otherwise, but you don't have to like them, and you shouldn't roll out the red carpet for them (literally with Trump). To be fair I don't think that the Conservatives are too different in that respect (apart from the Trump lovers)lover It's one thing to have to deal with these groups but there are ways and means. The negotiations with the IRA are a case in point. When negotiating the peace process or having contact with the IRA, not once did you get the impression that the governments or politicians involved with the process were craven or treating them as friends. OK well i'm not going to get into a debate over what "rolling out the red carpet" means, or who you should or shouldn't call 'friends'... ("ooh Hezbollah fwends") But yes OK, Corbyn made a mistake by once referring to them as 'friends'. I don't think that it really changes too much about the principle he lays out though.
Fox Ulike Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 9 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: I can see figures of 1.1 Billion for 1/2 a year online no idea of the accuracy, call it 2 billion annually, that's a good chunk but we are not just talking the Saudis. If we going to do it properly we have to be consistent across the board. We would also have to draw up a list of countries that we purchase products from for example 'Russian Gas'. Are the funds from this used to fund a military that can illegally annex part of a another sovereign nation and kill innocent Ukrainians? Possibly, should we stop buying Russian Gas? Perhaps There are a whole host of nations we trade with we could look at, even Spain? Their treatment of the Catalonians was pretty horrific, the EU supported the action of the Spanish government, should we trade with the EU? Spain? It really depends how far you want to take it I guess. For me its simpler to just look at it from a UK point of view, we sell stuff, people buy it what they do with it is their moral choice not ours. We buy stuff and give them money, what they do with the money is our moral choice not ours. We would of course all like a perfect world, but in reality it does exist and probably ever will we just have to live our lives and do what we can. OK well I am just talking about the Saudis. Not the Russians. Not the Spanish. You can't just turn my post into something it's not and think I won't notice. Nice try, but I'm not going to start defending a position I haven't taken!
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 5 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: Yeah I've no idea how you can praise the Soviet Union for being anti-imperialist when it was imperial in all but name itself. What I will say though is I get the impression he's talking more from the pov of it essentially ended the chances of any state developing a workable form of pure Socialism than from the pov of the CCCP being great thing in of itself, which it clearly wasn't though I will agree he is remarkably soft on them. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting though. Just to clarify I'm not saying there's a way of making pure socialism work, obviously there isn't, I'm just giving my interpretation. I can understand his stance, and it is absolutely fine and complies with his political beliefs. My biggest issue with Corbyn is he tries to lie about stuff and pretend certain things didn't happen. I know what he stands for, I disagree with him. I would have a lot more respect if he was just honest about his agenda sometimes. If he likes Russia fine, if he still thinks Venezuela is a good example of a nation fine, just tell us. Of course he wont because he knows that that will lose him votes, particularly in the North, he is trying to play the game which I get but he is also trying to appear principled when he is looking anything but that in some of his actions.
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 2 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said: OK well I am just talking about the Saudis. Not the Russians. Not the Spanish. You can't just turn my post into something it's not and think I won't notice. Nice try, but I'm not going to start defending a position I haven't taken! But why stop selling Arms to the Saudis on moral grounds? BUT Still buy gas from the Russians that they use the proceeds to buy arms to kill people with? OR Buy tomatoes from the Spanish that they use the proceeds to beat up their own citizens to stop them having a voice? Surely we cant have it all ways? Of course we can just admit that given our political alignment we wont sell stuff to the Saudis because they are the nasty bogeymen but we will buy stuff from Russia and have a 'robust' dialogue with them because they are politically aligned to us. Its fine we just have to be clear what our morals actually are, we cant claim moral superiority working with one nation then toss it in the bin with another country. We have to be consistent across the board.
AlloverthefloorYesNdidi Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 Imagine being a Leicester fan in Yemen, worst humanitarian crisis of the time its been called hasnt it? and reading on here us saying we should think before we stop selling the military equipment because of GDP and losses in the job sector
breadandcheese Posted 20 March 2018 Posted 20 March 2018 11 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said: OK well i'm not going to get into a debate over what "rolling out the red carpet" means, or who you should or shouldn't call 'friends'... ("ooh Hezbollah fwends") But yes OK, Corbyn made a mistake by once referring to them as 'friends'. I don't think that it really changes too much about the principle he lays out though. But the mistake is not once. It's a pattern.
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