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[STUHILL]

39 minutes ago, Gerard said:

 

 

Amartey & €15m > iborra

 

Iborra has three Europa Cups to his name but his contribution to those finals were all as a substitute. Once he was an unused substitute and the other two times he came on as an 89th minute substitute. Let's not rewrite history as he has three Europa Cup winners medals for four minutes playing time.

 

I don't think Iborra is a bad player, he's actually okay, I just think it was terrible business to spend €15m on a player who is nearly 30 and never came here to be first choice. English clubs seem to end up stockpiling unwanted players because of over inflated transfer fees and wages. As soon as we bought Iborra he was going to fit in straight into that category, his value plummeted as soon as we bought him. Sevilla must have thought of us as mugs. 

 

Just to put his €15m fee into context. Sevilla in their whole history have only twice spent more than €15m for a player but we waltz in and throw €15m at one of their near 30 year old players whose been a squad player for years. They probably couldn't get rid of him quickly enough to these English mugs with more money than sense. It would be like us selling Andy King for £12m. 

 

If we're going to prosper then we need to be so much smarter with our money. Our net spend can only average about £20m per season for us to break even.

 

 

You still seem to be judging him purely on his transfer fee and not giving him any credit for what he has, and more importantly might still offer over the next 2-3 seasons for us. You keep talking about him like he is already being sold for £3milion and past it at 30. He has 3 years left on his contract with us and still may have a lot to offer - whether on the pitch, on the training ground and in the dressing room. A vastly experienced player, who has Captain qualities, which already have been clear to see with his communication and organisation on the pitch.

 

As I posted earlier, he was ranked as the 2nd best performing player in the first half of last season, just behind Maguire. This thread shows what the vast majority of fans thought about him after 6 months and before his injury - https://www.foxestalk.co.uk/topic/113988-iborra-key-player/

 

Hardly a bad signing, considering the dross we've had over the years. £12 million for a 29 year old (prime age for CM) and a player who had 30 goals in 173 appearances for Sevilla. No wonder there were articles on him being one of the signings of the window. I actually think that is a stretch and also believe he will be best from the bench next season, whether to cover injuries or to come on and make an impact as he did so well for Sevilla. 

 

Difference is, you are more concerned about us keeping a few million saved on this one particular transfer, whereas I am more interested in having a squad full of genuine talent, that can help us push for consistent 6/7th finishes.

 

He has 3 years left on his contract. He is still only 30. He performed very well in the first 6 months, then had injuries and our shocking run to contend with, where every player was awful. Lets see what he offers us next season and maybe even into a third, before we write him off as 'terrible business'. 

 

Value on the pitch should be included when assessing a deal, not just the profit/loss in terms of money. He still has another 3 season to show his value on the pitch. 

 

 

Edited 16 June 2018 by STUHILL

[Grebfromgrebland]

Despite all the bashing on here we had our best run of form with him on the pitch last season. Him and Ndidi could run a midfield. 

[Gerard]

26 minutes ago, STUHILL said:

 

 

You still seem to be judging him purely on his transfer fee and not giving him any credit for what he has, and more importantly might still offer over the next 2-3 seasons for us. You keep talking about him like he is already being sold for £3milion and past it at 30. He has 3 years left on his contract with us and still may have a lot to offer - whether on the pitch, on the training ground and in the dressing room. A vastly experienced player, who has Captain qualities, which already have been clear to see with his communication and organisation on the pitch.

 

As I posted earlier, he was ranked as the 2nd best performing player in the first half of last season, just behind Maguire. This thread shows what the vast majority of fans thought about him after 6 months and before his injury - https://www.foxestalk.co.uk/topic/113988-iborra-key-player/

 

Hardly a bad signing, considering the dross we've had over the years. £12 million for a 29 year old (prime age for CM) and a player who had 30 goals in 173 appearances for Sevilla. No wonder there were articles on him being one of the signings of the window. I actually think that is a stretch and also believe he will be best from the bench next season, whether to cover injuries or to come on and make an impact as he did so well for Sevilla. 

 

Difference is, you are more concerned about us keeping a few million saved on this one particular transfer, whereas I am more interested in having a squad full of genuine talent, that can help us push for consistent 6/7th finishes.

 

He has 3 years left on his contract. He is still only 30. He performed very well in the first 6 months, then had injuries and our shocking run to contend with, where every player was awful. Lets see what he offers us next season and maybe even into a third, before we write him off as 'terrible business'. 

 

Value on the pitch should be included when assessing a deal, not just the profit/loss in terms of money. He still has another 3 season to show his value on the pitch. 

 

 

 

 

I've never said he's a bad player, he's decent enough. Obviously I judge every player on their transfer fee and VFM. In the PL clubs who consistently get VFM will stay up and clubs that don't will get relegated. That's why I didn't agree your acceptance that we probably spent £5m more on Iborra than he was worth but that's okay as we have billionaire owners. 

 

Just because Iborra has been better VFM than Musa, Mendy, Slimani and Benoulane doesn't make his purchase acceptable. I don't want to go round in circles but the facts are he came here as an expensive squad player to be a reserve to Ndidi and Drinkwater and had little resale value. I think he's a poor investment as he won't make a difference to us.

 

One of the things I really like about Puel is I feel he has a similar outlook to myself. He wants to get VFM for the whole squad and I believe he would never sanction a deal for an Iborra type player. I want and I believe Puel is the same is to see a streamlined squad with room for young players to push themselves into the first 18. We should either be buying players who should walk into the first team like Pereira and Evans or young players like Diabate who fulfil a vital role in the squad and who are potentially capable of developing into a first team player. 

 

We have too many players of a certain age who don't offer the squad enough or cost too much money. Players like Benalouane, King, Slimani, Musa, Ulloa and Mendy. Players who we'd love to sell but no one wants to buy.  Iborra was a lazy buy and that money should have been spent better rather than buying another reserve player with no potential for improvement or profit. Just my opinion.

[STUHILL]

5 minutes ago, Gerard said:

 

I've never said he's a bad player, he's decent enough. Obviously I judge every player on their transfer fee and VFM. In the PL clubs who consistently get VFM will stay up and clubs that don't will get relegated. That's why I didn't agree your acceptance that we probably spent £5m more on Iborra than he was worth but that's okay as we have billionaire owners. 

 

Just because Iborra has been better VFM than Musa, Mendy, Slimani and Benoulane doesn't make his purchase acceptable. I don't want to go round in circles but the facts are he came here as an expensive squad player to be a reserve to Ndidi and Drinkwater and had little resale value. I think he's a poor investment as he won't make a difference to us.

 

One of the things I really like about Puel is I feel he has a similar outlook to myself. He wants to get VFM for the whole squad and I believe he would never sanction a deal for an Iborra type player. I want and I believe Puel is the same is to see a streamlined squad with room for young players to push themselves into the first 18. We should either be buying players who should walk into the first team like Pereira and Evans or young players like Diabate who fulfil a vital role in the squad and who are potentially capable of developing into a first team player. 

 

We have too many players of a certain age who don't offer the squad enough or cost too much money. Players like Benalouane, King, Slimani, Musa, Ulloa and Mendy. Players who we'd love to sell but no one wants to buy.  Iborra was a lazy buy and that money should have been spent better rather than buying another reserve player with no potential for improvement or profit. Just my opinion.

Does he improve the squad? Was he our 2nd best performer in the first half of the season here? Can he still offer something over the next 1-2 seasons if he stays? Is he currently better than our other options Amartey, King, James, Amartey and Choudary?

 

If you answer NO to any of those then we will just have to agree to disagree. 

 

For the sake of a £5m overspend on this ONE deal, I'm personally happy we have the option of him coming on in CM, rather than Amartey.

 

 

[FoxinNotts]

Hell of a lot of words being written about Iborra. I can’t be arsed to read them all. Basically, he’s a decent footballer. Very good, but not great. A good addition to our squad. I hope he stays.

Edited 16 June 2018 by FoxinNotts

[Gerard]

Just now, STUHILL said:

Does he improve the squad? Was he our 2nd best performer in the first half of the season here? Can he still offer something over the next 1-2 seasons if he stays? Is he currently better than our other options Amartey, King, James, Amartey and Choudary?

 

If you answer NO to any of those then we will just have to agree to disagree. 

 

For the sake of a £5m overspend on this ONE deal, I'm personally happy we have the option of him coming on in CM, rather than Amartey.

 

 

 

Improving the squad is not enough and knowingly overspending is rarely acceptable. Just ask yourself who got the better of this deal, Leicester or Sevilla.

 

It's arguable that he has anyway as Puel has preferred James when both are fit and he'll potentially get in the way of the development of Amartey and Choudhury. I'd rather have took our chances and not bought him and still have the £12m in our pockets ready to improve on the right player.

[STUHILL]

5 minutes ago, Gerard said:

 

Improving the squad is not enough and knowingly overspending is rarely acceptable. Just ask yourself who got the better of this deal, Leicester or Sevilla.

 

It's arguable that he has anyway as Puel has preferred James when both are fit and he'll potentially get in the way of the development of Amartey and Choudhury. I'd rather have took our chances and not bought him and still have the £12m in our pockets ready to improve on the right player.

Not improving the squad, focusing solely on the starting 11 and just having "squad fillers", is why we have struggled to maintain a consistent run of form to push for the top 6. It is essential we change this mindset in the future and adapt to how bigger clubs operate with improving and investing in quality throughout the squad, otherwise we will always fall short of that goal. We are not a selling club. We are one with ambitions to break into the elite.

 

Funny enough, Iborra's MV has increased since his move here. Must be because with 2-3 years left at a decent level, he now has Premier League experience too. You might be surprised what interest he would get from other clubs, if we were to sell now. Certainly not the £3m suggested by some. I hope he stays though as we will need him, especially if we don't sign any other CM's and ship out King, Mendy and James, which I think we should.

[Gerard]

2 minutes ago, STUHILL said:

Not improving the squad, focusing solely on the starting 11 and just having "squad fillers", is why we have struggled to maintain a consistent run of form to push for the top 6. It is essential we change this mindset in the future and adapt to how bigger clubs operate with improving and investing in quality throughout the squad, otherwise we will always fall short of that goal. We are not a selling club. We are one with ambitions to break into the elite.

 

Funny enough, Iborra's MV has increased since his move here. Must be because with 2-3 years left at a decent level, he now has Premier League experience too. You might be surprised what interest he would get from other clubs, if we were to sell now. Certainly not the £3m suggested by some. I hope he stays though as we will need him, especially if we don't sign any other CM's and ship out King, Mendy and James, which I think we should.

 

Don't kid yourself. The top six weren't looking over their shoulders because we signed Iborra for £12m.

 

If we're ever to break into the top six and stay there it will be because we've spent well on younger talented players with potential to improve not signing 30 year olds who have been reserve players for clubs like Sevilla for years.

 

Sevilla would have been beaming to get rid of a 30 year old reserve player for more money than they have ever spent in their history on a player apart from Muriel, Vasquez and Negredo. The €15m they got for their ageing reserve player funded their purchases of Ben Yedder and Sarabia and with £4m change and according to transfermarket.com they're now valued at €48m, now that's good business.

[STUHILL]

58 minutes ago, Gerard said:

 

Don't kid yourself. The top six weren't looking over their shoulders because we signed Iborra for £12m.

 

If we're ever to break into the top six and stay there it will be because we've spent well on younger talented players with potential to improve not signing 30 year olds who have been reserve players for clubs like Sevilla for years.

 

Sevilla would have been beaming to get rid of a 30 year old reserve player for more money than they have ever spent in their history on a player apart from Muriel, Vasquez and Negredo. The €15m they got for their ageing reserve player funded their purchases of Ben Yedder and Sarabia and with £4m change and according to transfermarket.com they're now valued at €48m, now that's good business.

That's all well and dandy in a fantasy world where every young player we buy such as Amartey, Gray, Kaputska, Mendy. Musa and co. all succeed here and reach their potential with us - But reality is harsh and certainly has been with those signings so far. They certainly haven't been signings that have made much impact so far and will they ever? Let's hope so.

 

I'm all for investing in youth but you have to get the balance right, otherwise you can end up with a squad full of players who could make it a real struggle for us to even compete to stay in the league. So whilst it's always essential to invest in youth and player development, it is also essential that we don't focus solely on that. If we had, then where would we have been without signings such as Huth and Fuchs or hopefully even Evans. I agree players like that may never be able to help break us into a top 6, but they will be damn helpful in keeping us in the league for one, helping develop the youth players and at least pushing for a top 7 finish. 

 

- and obviously I didn't suggest signing Iborra made us a threat to the top 6. I was clearly referring to not having just a good starting 11 and then trying to make do with poor options from the bench who are unable to help us keep pushing week to week in the league and cups. We need to improve our whole squad and have quality throughout. We will get that, yes by developing our own young players, but also signing players who have proven quality and experience i.e Iborra. 

 

p.s he played 173 times (30 goals) for Sevilla in 4 seasons, avg 26 starts a season. Hardly the 'reserve player for years' you refer to 

Edited 16 June 2018 by STUHILL

[Steve Earle]

Getting Iborring now...

[STUHILL]

20 minutes ago, Steve Earle said:

Getting Iborring now...

 Well played Sir.

[Albert]

19 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

 

Amartey & €15m > iborra

 

Iborra has three Europa Cups to his name but his contribution to those finals were all as a substitute. Once he was an unused substitute and the other two times he came on as an 89th minute substitute. Let's not rewrite history as he has three Europa Cup winners medals for four minutes playing time.

 

I don't think Iborra is a bad player, he's actually okay, I just think it was terrible business to spend €15m on a player who is nearly 30 and never came here to be first choice. English clubs seem to end up stockpiling unwanted players because of over inflated transfer fees and wages. As soon as we bought Iborra he was going to fit in straight into that category, his value plummeted as soon as we bought him. Sevilla must have thought of us as mugs. 

 

Just to put his €15m fee into context. Sevilla in their whole history have only twice spent more than €15m for a player but we waltz in and throw €15m at one of their near 30 year old players whose been a squad player for years. They probably couldn't get rid of him quickly enough to these English mugs with more money than sense. It would be like us selling Andy King for £12m. 

 

If we're going to prosper then we need to be so much smarter with our money. Our net spend can only average about £20m per season for us to break even.

We bought him for his experience & the benefits that would bring to the team, not to make a profit on later down the line. The investment was for the positive effects his experience gives to the squad & the benefits it has in helping the development of the younger players who can learn from it. U can’t put a price on that!

Looking at the bigger picture & comparing the big fees being shelled out by English clubs in todays market on players which are no where near the calibre of Iborra I certainly wouldn’t consider it being terrible business. I can assure you the £15m fee quoted in the newspapers is way off the mark also.

The ‘context’ in regards to the fee paid & Sevilla’s spending history is irrelevant. You’re overlooking the fact that every English team is seen as a winning lottery ticket to the rest of Europe when it comes to transfers. We have double their turnover & are operating on a completely different financial level to them so it’s inevitable that they inflate prices & we are forced to pay higher transfer fees. 

 

 

 

[st albans fox]

I thought we bought him for Suzie and we also needed a player with a decent song because Leo was likely to leave  .........

[Gerard]

3 hours ago, Albert said:

We bought him for his experience & the benefits that would bring to the team, not to make a profit on later down the line. The investment was for the positive effects his experience gives to the squad & the benefits it has in helping the development of the younger players who can learn from it. U can’t put a price on that!

Looking at the bigger picture & comparing the big fees being shelled out by English clubs in todays market on players which are no where near the calibre of Iborra I certainly wouldn’t consider it being terrible business. I can assure you the £15m fee quoted in the newspapers is way off the mark also.

The ‘context’ in regards to the fee paid & Sevilla’s spending history is irrelevant. You’re overlooking the fact that every English team is seen as a winning lottery ticket to the rest of Europe when it comes to transfers. We have double their turnover & are operating on a completely different financial level to them so it’s inevitable that they inflate prices & we are forced to pay higher transfer fees. 

 

 

 

 

Sorry but anyone tells me a player's key strength is "experience" and "helping the development of the younger players who can learn from him" is a euphemism for them not being very good players. A bit like Andy King is worth keeping because he's "great around the dressing room".

 

I also don't buy the excuse of "we're an English club so just accept that foreign clubs will bend us over and shaft us". Money is money and the market is the market. Sevilla had obviously been trying to shift Iborra for at least a year as was proved when they accepted a £7m bid from Sunderland the year before. This should have been a deal easy to conclude for a much lower price as it appears they wanted rid of their ageing squad player and we were the only bidders. They had no mandate to play hardball on the price.

[Bluearmyfox28]

Struggling to understand the Iborra hatred. Personally I think he’s a great option to have in our squad. Oozes class on the ball in the games where we control the tempo & offers a great option from set pieces.

 

Add his leadership skills plus his experience to that, I think we would be silly to get rid imo.

[Gerard]

1 hour ago, Bluearmyfox28 said:

Struggling to understand the Iborra hatred. Personally I think he’s a great option to have in our squad. Oozes class on the ball in the games where we control the tempo & offers a great option from set pieces.

 

Add his leadership skills plus his experience to that, I think we would be silly to get rid imo.

 

I have zero hatred for Iborra I'm just saying he was terrible business.We spent £12m on a player six months from his 30th birthday who had no potential for improvement and was signed as a squad player to back up Ndidi and Drinkwater.

 

I've noticed a current trend in PL teams squads outside the top six. We buy players for big money and put them on big salaries and if they fail to live up to expectation we're pretty much stuck with them as the clubs that can afford them don't want them and the clubs who would have them can't afford them.

 

You just have to look at the lack of links for the players we want to move on this summer. We're probably trying to actively shift Slimani, Musa, King, Mendy, Ulloa, Benoulane, etc and we'll probably get mostly loan offers. Everton are worse than us with a first team squad of 38 players and they can't shift their deadwood like Klassen, Williams, etc.

 

What we shouldn't be doing as a club is knowingly spending £12m on 30 year olds who have already peaked to come here as squad players that we can't shift when the time comes to move them on. It looks like I'm in the minority in thinking Iborra was bad business but I said to my mate when we signed him that he's come here to be a reserve and will fall further down the pecking order as the years go by and we'll be stuck with him on a big wage because we can't shift him as he sees his contract out.

[Albert]

10 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

Sorry but anyone tells me a player's key strength is "experience" and "helping the development of the younger players who can learn from him" is a euphemism for them not being very good players. A bit like Andy King is worth keeping because he's "great around the dressing room".

 

I also don't buy the excuse of "we're an English club so just accept that foreign clubs will bend us over and shaft us". Money is money and the market is the market. Sevilla had obviously been trying to shift Iborra for at least a year as was proved when they accepted a £7m bid from Sunderland the year before. This should have been a deal easy to conclude for a much lower price as it appears they wanted rid of their ageing squad player and we were the only bidders. They had no mandate to play hardball on the price.

Just because you’ve read a transfer figure from a newspaper doesn’t mean it’s accurate. I can assure you that 9 times out of 10 the figures aren’t even close to what is reported.

You’re living in the Football Manager PC World also if you think clubs don’t inflate their prices when a Premier league side comes knocking! They definitely play hardball as they know how much money is in the Prem so will milk it as much as possible.

 

 

 

[Vince Vega]

Zzzzzzzzzzz......

[mozartfox]

Let the 'Fire-sale' begin.  Cut our losses and move players out.   Still baffled why Ulloa was given a contract extension?

[HighPeakFox]

47 minutes ago, mozartfox said:

 Still baffled why Ulloa was given a contract extension?

Are you asking us or telling us?

[FrankieADZ]

dont get the whole issue with us paying as much as we did for Iborra tbh, £12mil isnt a bad price at all considering how much we was going to pay for Evans last season, (yes i know its a different kettle of fish and that)

hes easily one of the best midfielders at the club and when hes on form he always looks a class act, just seems to glide through games.

 

dont get me wrong i dont think spending £12mil on 30yr old players is a good idea but if we can get a good season or 2 out of them it would be worth the risk imo

 

 

[mozartfox]

1 hour ago, HighPeakFox said:

Are you asking us or telling us?

If you are ITK please share..

[lgfualol]

I love Iborra would be sad if he left. 

 

No idea how we will sell the likes of Ulloa, Slim and Musa. Bloody Shakespeare, 2 year contract for Ulloa, what was the point  

[Bob Weasel Fox]

1 minute ago, lgfualol said:

I love Iborra would be sad if he left. 

 

No idea how we will sell the likes of Ulloa, Slim and Musa. Bloody Shakespeare, 2 year contract for Ulloa, what was the point  

Was bizarre really

 

like a “well done” for throwing his teddies out of the pram just before

[ian_marshall]

14 minutes ago, lgfualol said:

I love Iborra would be sad if he left. 

 

No idea how we will sell the likes of Ulloa, Slim and Musa. Bloody Shakespeare, 2 year contract for Ulloa, what was the point  

That's an easy problem to solve. If we put in a bid for our own player's we're guaranteed to get offers from Everton and West Ham