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Grebfromgrebland

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By Grebfromgrebland, in General Chat

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, MattP said:

As I said, wouldn't vote for him last time out,  might do this time were I American.

 

I'd rather own him than Warren or Sanders though.

Fair enough.

 

I must ask though: do you really consider his environmental policy (or what passes for it) that low priority? I simply do not get that.

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Fair enough.

 

I must ask though: do you really consider his environmental policy (or what passes for it) that low priority? I simply do not get that.

No I think America has to be a leader in finding a global solution to try and address the problems.

 

But as I've said before, I don't blame America for refusing to damage it's own economy if the Chinese will use that to enhance theirs and also completely ignore the rules.

 

I remember saying earlier anti-capitalism and animal rights often masquerade as environmentalism - I think you can add anti-Americanism into that as well when you see how differently groups like ER and people like Greta Thunberg treat it compared to India and China.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, MattP said:

No I think America has to be a leader in finding a global solution to try and address the problems.

 

But as I've said before, I don't blame America for refusing to damage it's own economy if the Chinese will use that to enhance theirs and also completely ignore the rules.

 

I remember saying earlier anti-capitalism and animal rights often masquerade as environmentalism - I think you can add anti-Americanism into that as well when you see how differently groups like ER and people like Greta Thunberg treat it compared to India and China.

It's a fair point, but we have had this conversation before; my conclusion is as it was then, even if the Chinese and Indians won't play ball, the US engaging them in a communal race to the bottom as far as these things go isn't going to do anything good.

 

I can only speak for myself here, but a lot of the frustration I have with US policy on the matter comes from the knowledge that the US can be a world leader in these matters and inspire other nations to follow - they certainly have the power to do so. Instead, however, they choose someone like Trump who is pretty much the opposite of what's needed. And, unlike China and India (and people like Miss Thunberg know this), they are more open to persuasion and a positive result on the matter given their governmental structure.

 

The Earth needs someone, anyone, to take the lead on this, and it has to be a major player. The most likely player for that is the US, but I don't think it matters much so long as transitions are made in the fields of transportation, resource gathering and processing.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, ozleicester said:

Attack of the Conservatives... I hope all you unmarried types are not having sex

 

Image

 

35 minutes ago, MattP said:

I think you need to come out of the 1960's.

 

The Church in England is as left wing as it gets these days. Its ran by Justin Welby ffs lol

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/03/im-scared-to-admit-to-being-a-tory-in-todays-c-of-e/

Little bit of both going on here.

 

I wouldn't say that the C of E is all that left-wing even today given the above quoted beliefs towards premarital sex and LGBT rights - but they thankfully really don't have any kind of political power so it doesn't mean much, unlike their counterparts Stateside and (to a lesser extent) elsewhere.

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Guest MattP

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Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, leicsmac said:

The Earth needs someone, anyone, to take the lead on this, and it has to be a major player. The most likely player for that is the US, but I don't think it matters much so long as transitions are made in the fields of transportation, resource gathering and processing.

On that we can agree. Although I think China and India have an even bigger role to play than the US now with its expanding populations.

 

Shame this person isn't still around, way ahead of the curve on almost everything, want to have a guess who it was?

 

Or perhaps the wonderer might be a visitor from just a few years ago. That was when these words were addressed to the UN: “What we are now doing to the world, by adding greenhouse gases to the air at an unprecedented rate — all this is new in the experience of the earth . . . the problem of global climate change is one that affects us all and action will only be effective if it is taken at the international level.”

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, MattP said:

On that we can agree. Although I think China and India have an even bigger role to play than the US now with its expanding populations.

 

Shame this person isn't still around, way ahead of the curve on almost everything, want to have a guess who it was?

 

Or perhaps the wonderer might be a visitor from just a few years ago. That was when these words were addressed to the UN: “What we are now doing to the world, by adding greenhouse gases to the air at an unprecedented rate — all this is new in the experience of the earth . . . the problem of global climate change is one that affects us all and action will only be effective if it is taken at the international level.”

I'm pretty sure I know. :D

 

One thing I will say about the old-school conservatives of the 80's was that often if they were shown information that was scientifically convincing, then they did often craft policy based on that - Maggie did so with climate change, and Reagan did so when faced with a true depiction of what nuclear weaponry would do to the world.

 

I'm not sure I can say the same with Trump today.

 

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Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

 

Little bit of both going on here.

 

I wouldn't say that the C of E is all that left-wing even today given the above quoted beliefs towards premarital sex and LGBT rights - but they thankfully really don't have any kind of political power so it doesn't mean much, unlike their counterparts Stateside and (to a lesser extent) elsewhere.

However they do run over 30% of our state schools and have seats in the Lords.  Both of which are archaic nonsense.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

However they do run over 30% of our state schools and have seats in the Lords.  Both of which are archaic nonsense.

Fair point well made - one of those state schools was my own.

 

It's not the same level of legislative control as they have across the pond, though.

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Kopfkino

Kopfkino

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 23/01/2020 at 15:23, leicsmac said:

 

Going to need a citation for such a highly subjective opinion, I think.

 

Especially, and I quote on Burke's legacy: "Burke believed that property was essential to human life. Because of his conviction that people desire to be ruled and controlled, the division of property formed the basis for social structure, helping develop control within a property-based hierarchy. He viewed the social changes brought on by property as the natural order of events which should be taking place as the human race progressed." (Bolding and underlining the key sentence for emphasis.)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke#Legacy

 

Say what you want about the man, but I'm not entirely sure how interested he was in personal freedom at the expense of hierarchy that he believed paramount.

 

You are genuinely parodying yourself surely? It's the only explanation for you asking for a citation and then proceeding to quote an unattributable passage on Wikipedia, that itself makes a confident assertion without reference to back it up, to make a point about Burke's view of liberty, having already (imo) expressed the most reductive view of conservatism that you could. 

Edited by Kopfkino
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Innovindil

Innovindil

Posted
Posted

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51240785

 

Universities and Science Minister Chris Skidmore has said that the UK will not implement the EU Copyright Directive after the country leaves the EU.

Several companies have criticised the law, which would hold them accountable for not removing copyrighted content uploaded by users, if it is passed.

EU member states have until 7 June 2021 to implement the new reforms, but the UK will have left the EU by then.

 

That's more like it. :appl:

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

You are genuinely parodying yourself surely? It's the only explanation for you asking for a citation and then proceeding to quote an unattributable passage on Wikipedia, that itself makes a confident assertion without reference to back it up, to make a point about Burke's view of liberty, having already (imo) expressed the most reductive view of conservatism that you could. 

Well, considering I never got the citation and as such the burden of proof was not mine anyway I didn't really need to quote any passage at all.

 

That being said, I was lazy and didn't spend time looking for more reliable sources and thought that whole paragraph was based from the Spectator article cited later. Evidently I was wrong. So...

 

https://www.theburkean.co.uk/the-social-thought-of-edmund-burke/

 

https://www.academia.edu/36744703/Political_ideologies_and_critically_analyze_why_implementation_of_one_would_lead_to_a_better_society_than_the_other

 

In both of these sources, Burke is quoted thus: "To be attached to the subdivision, to love the little platoon we belong to in society, is the first principle (the germ [seed] as it were) of public affections."

 

That doesn't imply a desire for personal freedom to me - more like "know your place, accept your place, love your place". Nor does it really express much in the way of desire for the freedom of social mobility, rather a like for hierarchy and everyone belonging in their little "platoon".

 

So, with respect, I stand by my view of Burke's particular brand of conservatism. (It's interesting, however, that he also does use the term "liberty" rather often - but doesn't really define exactly what he means by it except by mentioning "liberty according to English ideas and English principles", which seems to be a bit vague on how far it extends in terms of the individual.)

 

NB. I'm well aware that conservatives are not all about control, but history is pretty clear that governments of that type have been interested in controlling their populaces in terms of social mobility and family/gender roles. Of course, left-wing authoritarian governments have often been equally controlling of their own populaces in a different way, but then that was never denied - this little conversation came about because I thought Trump had a real brass neck going on about other people seeking control when he and a lot of the people backing him are all about that.

Edited by leicsmac
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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, MattP said:

Not for the first time, a Democrat mask slips.

 

What a bizarre thing to say months before an election.

 

...if such a mask existed, then we would have seen this same rigmarole when Dubya got in by a hair and the Supreme Court had to step in to sort it out. I don't remember him getting impeached in a measure to "overturn an election result".

 

But tbh Schiff is wrong in that the Senate vote coming up is likely more unfair (as in failing to consider the situation and reaching a predetermined verdict) than any ballot box could be as so November will be the better measure of Trump's conduct.

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

...if such a mask existed, then we would have seen this same rigmarole when Dubya got in by a hair and the Supreme Court had to step in to sort it out. I don't remember him getting impeached in a measure to "overturn an election result".

 

But tbh Schiff is wrong in that the Senate vote coming up is likely more unfair (as in failing to consider the situation and reaching a predetermined verdict) than any ballot box could be as so November will be the better measure of Trump's conduct.

The Democrat party is massively different now to what it was back in 2000. Probably as different as the Republican party is.

 

If that situation had occurred in this day and age where attitudes to democratic results are often so apathetic you can be sure they would be dragging it through the courts. I'm certain Clinton would have gone down that path had the opportunity presented itself.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
47 minutes ago, MattP said:

The Democrat party is massively different now to what it was back in 2000. Probably as different as the Republican party is.

 

If that situation had occurred in this day and age where attitudes to democratic results are often so apathetic you can be sure they would be dragging it through the courts. I'm certain Clinton would have gone down that path had the opportunity presented itself.

Perhaps, perhaps not - I guess we'll never know.

 

I do agree that both parties have changed a fair bit due to the increasing polarisation we're seeing politically - but then the way the Overton Window is in the US the Dems are perhaps on a par with Mays (or maybe Boris') Conservatives in terms of political outlook anyway. There's nowhere near any kind of serious left-wing option there outside the fringe; even Bernie is pretty much solid Nordic mainstream in the general scheme of things.

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