Brexit!

[The Guvnor]

1 minute ago, Salisbury Fox said:

Labour’s stance is anything but clear. If they want to remain then they should campaign for remain and not this nonsense of negotiating an alternative deal and then campaign against it! 

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fMu17LvBj7E

Agreed, negotiate a better deal though apparently , one which will incorporate all the six tests I assume, a load of bollox which everyone know's, designed to do what exactly, fcuk knows.

[Facecloth]

4 minutes ago, The Guvnor said:

From Sajid's response to the question over respecting the law,  and incidentally I personally hope the law is respected, it did appear from his response some of the cards have been kept very close to their chest, don't be surprised if some counter measure is revealed over the near future. 

With regards Labours position it has changed more times than a babies nappy , quite a decent analogy actually.

 

3 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

Labour’s stance is anything but clear. If they want to remain then they should campaign for remain and not this nonsense of negotiating an alternative deal and then campaign against it! 

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fMu17LvBj7E

Labours brexit stance hasn't been clear, you're right, but why are you throwing labour at me just because I criticised Javid. I doubt I'd vote labour in a imminent GE. I mean I did vote for chaos under Ed Miliband , but doesn't mean I'll vote for Corbyns labour. I still think today though, that McDonnell stuck to his narrative, I'm not talking historically, whereas Javid was all over the shop. At the end of the day, Javid is in the party trying to implement brexit, I want to know what they are doing, until we have an election, labour's stance is pretty irrelevant tbh.

[theessexfox]

On 04/09/2019 at 21:59, Jon the Hat said:

It’s **** all time mate.  Not the crashing out disaster we keep hearing about!

I can't remember that slogan from the campaign? Vote Leave - we won't have food shortages for that long!

[Donk]

8 minutes ago, The Guvnor said:

Agreed, negotiate a better deal though apparently , one which will incorporate all the six tests I assume, a load of bollox which everyone know's, designed to do what exactly, fcuk knows.

Surely labours position is this:

 

We will negotiate a deal that fulfills the referendum result to leave.

 

But this deal is STILL not better than remaining.

 

Your choice is between the best possible leave deal vs remaining. Of which they think remaining is better.

 

I dont vote labour btw.

[Salisbury Fox]

3 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

 

Labours brexit stance hasn't been clear, you're right, but why are you throwing labour at me just because I criticised Javid. I doubt I'd vote labour in a imminent GE. I mean I did vote for chaos under Ed Miliband , but doesn't mean I'll vote for Corbyns labour. I still think today though, that McDonnell stuck to his narrative, I'm not talking historically, whereas Javid was all over the shop. At the end of the day, Javid is in the party trying to implement brexit, I want to know what they are doing, until we have an election, labour's stance is pretty irrelevant tbh.

I am not suggesting that you will vote Labour, I am just offering balance. Labour’s stance is very relevant given that they are in opposition and so should be clear about their position.  I don’t want to leave the EU but Labour are not offering a serious alternative.

[Salisbury Fox]

7 minutes ago, Donk said:

Surely labours position is this:

 

We will negotiate a deal that fulfills the referendum result to leave.

 

But this deal is STILL not better than remaining.

 

Your choice is between the best possible leave deal vs remaining. Of which they think remaining is better.

 

I dont vote labour btw.

Why on earth would the EU offer an acceptable deal when they know that Labour will campaign for remain? Come on, that’s a joke that will not heal any of the divisions that we face.  

[Donk]

Obviously someone doesnt like the truth given the few posts that have just been taken down.

 

[Dames]

5 hours ago, Tuna said:

 

Its as clear as day they want a dictatorship where they can put anything through unopposed regardless to existing rules or laws.

 

Leavers are always on Bercows case calling him undemocratic when in fact all he is doing is obeying and enforcing the rules of the land. Its not his fault that this and the previous Conservative Government has been trying to subvert the rules and laws. 

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, Donk said:

Obviously someone doesnt like the truth given the few posts that have just been taken down.

 

Wow, there was nothing offensive in those posts. No personal insults. Nothing to warrant taking them down. Would love to know the reasoning, firstly for the complaint, and secondly for the mods agreeing with it.

[Salisbury Fox]

 

10 minutes ago, Donk said:

Who cares, as i wont be voting labour, nor will you, and nor will plenty of people around the country. So they wont be negotiating anything. 

 

The EU have negotiated an offer with us that 27 members ratified. 

 

Its the best deal that exists. Its the only deal that exists, and its worse than remaining.

 

Threatening to ruin our own country with no deal is even worse and despite everyone saying leave no deal on the table, its somehow the EUs fault they accept our pithy threat because as it turns out, they dont need us more than we need them.

 

So there you go. Heal some divisions out of that.

A very petulant last line which isn’t very helpful.  

 

You have missed the point about Labour, as the official opposition I would hope that they come come up with a credible plan to get us out of this mess but their dithering and playing party politics themselves has actually contributed to it e.g. you mention TM’s deal which was voted down by the opposition (I know the ERG did too but they do not have the numbers that Labour do).  

[Donk]

1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

Wow, there was nothing offensive in those posts. No personal insults. Nothing to warrant taking them down. Would love to know the reasoning, firstly for the complaint, and secondly for the mods agreeing with it.

Nothing at all. Really does make you wonder

[Facecloth]

Just now, Donk said:

Nothing at all. Really does make you wonder

Judging by the banned poster list and judging by the posts that get deleted, either certain posters are a little sensitive or our mods need to check their impartiality.

[HighPeakFox]

2 minutes ago, Donk said:

Nothing at all. Really does make you wonder

 

1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

Judging by the banned poster list and judging by the posts that get deleted, either certain posters are a little sensitive or our mods need to check their impartiality.

I refer the honourable gentlemen to an answer I gave at some point prior.

[Donk]

1 minute ago, Salisbury Fox said:

 

A very petulant last line which isn’t very helpful.  

 

You have missed the point about Labour, as the official opposition I would hope that they come come up with a credible plan to get us out of this mess but their dithering and playing party politics themselves has actually contributed to it e.g. you mention TM’s deal which was voted down by the opposition (I know the ERG did too but they do not have the numbers that Labour do).  

My second post was deleted.

 

But youve just said youd hope labour, as the opposition, would come up with a credible plan for getting us out of the mess.

 

You think its labours fault michael gove, david davis, boris johnson, dominic raab and jacob rees mogg all lied?

 

Is it labours fault the conservative party is the new brexit party driven by its hard right fringe?

 

Labour havent been in power during this period, nor called a referendum in the first place, and voted against a deal thats worse than remaining.

 

If healing divisions upset you, i was using your own words back to you.

[Salisbury Fox]

Just now, Donk said:

My second post was deleted.

 

But youve just said youd hope labour, as the opposition, would come up with a credible plan for getting us out of the mess.

 

You think its labours fault michael gove, david davis, boris johnson, dominic raab and jacob rees mogg all lied?

 

Is it labours fault the conservative party is the new brexit party driven by its hard right fringe?

 

Labour havent been in power during this period, nor called a referendum in the first place, and voted against a deal thats worse than remaining.

 

If healing divisions upset you, i was using your own words back to you.

I am not upset by the pixels you are using, I was just pointing out that that type of petulant response is why we struggle to get any sensible discussion on this subject.  

 

Of course I don’t blame Labour for any of the lies that were made and I never said that as you well know.  That said Corbyn’s lack of overt campaigning for a remain vote was a contributory factor too, but this was unsurprising given his long term euro sceptic views. 

 

You made a point in a previous post about the deal that was negotiated with the EU being the best we could have hoped for, then why did Labour vote it down? Surely you can see that they have been playing party politics just like the Tories and neither have been serving the interests of the country?

[Trav Le Bleu]

@Donk and @Salisbury Fox... I think this applies to you both.

 

 

Now get a room.

 

[Paninistickers]

1 hour ago, Salisbury Fox said:

 

A very petulant last line which isn’t very helpful.  

 

You have missed the point about Labour, as the official opposition I would hope that they come come up with a credible plan to get us out of this mess but their dithering and playing party politics themselves has actually contributed to it e.g. you mention TM’s deal which was voted down by the opposition (I know the ERG did too but they do not have the numbers that Labour do).  

TM's WA deal is plainly a worse deal than remaining. So, Labour had every right to vote it down as the deal was not in the national interest

 

 

[Trav Le Bleu]

1 hour ago, Facecloth said:

Judging by the banned poster list and judging by the posts that get deleted, either certain posters are a little sensitive or our mods need to check their impartiality.

Over sensitive?!?! Not impartial?!?!

 

You leftie, jingoistic, remoaning, nationalist, commie, flag-waving, country hating, Boris loving, red-dyed, fascist, socialist, racist, immigrant-shagging, brexit imperial, darling.

 

 

 

And if THAT doesn't get deleted, I give up!

Edited 8 September 2019 by Trav Le Bleu

[Facecloth]

2 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Over sensitive?!?! Not impartial?!?!

 

You leftie, jingoistic, remoaning, nationalist, commie, flag-waving, country hating, Boris loving, red-dyed, fascist, socialist, racist, immigrant-shagging, brexit imperial, darling.

 

 

 

And if THAT doesn't get deleted, I give up!

I've ran out of reps otherwise I'd have  to this.

[Donk]

34 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

I am not upset by the pixels you are using, I was just pointing out that that type of petulant response is why we struggle to get any sensible discussion on this subject.  

 

Of course I don’t blame Labour for any of the lies that were made and I never said that as you well know.  That said Corbyn’s lack of overt campaigning for a remain vote was a contributory factor too, but this was unsurprising given his long term euro sceptic views. 

 

You made a point in a previous post about the deal that was negotiated with the EU being the best we could have hoped for, then why did Labour vote it down? Surely you can see that they have been playing party politics just like the Tories and neither have been serving the interests of the country?

To be honest, its arguable only the lib dems and greens are serving the INTERESTS of the country.

 

The conservatives and labour are serving the WILL of the country (the will of the country 3 years ago that was not built on a premise to leave with no deal and we dont know what their will is now because we wont ask them). 

 

But theyre not acting in the INTERESTS of the country because theyre telling us we must leave whilst also completing impact studies and making contingency plans for things getting worse.

 

Youve also got a government now taking a path to destruction that there was no majority for and was not campaigned upon.

 

The divisions are growing deeper in this country and that is exactly what people like boris want. Turn people against each other and people against elected parliamentarians then his own position is strengthened.

 

No sensible pragmatic person on either side of the debate is going to find common ground with a rabid leaver who supports the way boris is going about his task by pushing for no deal against the country's will, shutting parliament and surpressing inpact studies to avoid scrutiny and threatening to break the law to get his own way.

 

Common ground requires comprimise which is actively being shut down.

[Paninistickers]

Fast forwarding to the next stage, I'm going to find it absolutely fascinating how the 'rebel alliance' line up seat by seat with - hopefully - non aggression pacts to cut the head off the snake.

 

Libs and labour, Plaid, Green and SNP surely need to stand aside in some key swing seats...but the fascinating bit is the 15 or so expelled Tories who'll stand for reelection.

 

I'm hopeful they'll all run as 'independent conservatives' given a clear run from.libs and labour and give the voters some food for thought that conservatism does not necessarily mean this lunatic hard right government. If they do run as a group with non aggression pacts in place ....I think more Tories - such as Lidington -may well stand with them

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Salisbury Fox]

10 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

TM's WA deal is plainly a worse deal than remaining. So, Labour had every right to vote it down as the deal was not in the national interest

 

 

I agree that they have every right to vote it down, but It is disingenuous and farcical to suggest that they would be able to negotiate anything better and then campaign to remain.  Why not just campaign for remain as why would the EU offer better terms when they know that the other side negotiating will not support any new agreement by campaigning for it anyway?   If you cannot see the lunacy of this approach then we will never agree.  

[Paninistickers]

2 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

I agree that they have every right to vote it down, but It is disingenuous and farcical to suggest that they would be able to negotiate anything better and then campaign to remain.  Why not just campaign for remain as why would the EU offer better terms when they know that the other side negotiating will not support any new agreement by campaigning for it anyway?   If you cannot see the lunacy of this approach then we will never agree.  

I agree their position is absurd... But they are walking a tight line. Their safe seats and core supporter base are leave strongholds. Their membership and MPs are staunch remain. Their leader is a leaver by instinct. 

 

Is Labour's position any more absurd than Cameron campaigning for remain or Theresa May - a staunch remainer - negotiating for us to leave?

[Donk]

1 minute ago, Salisbury Fox said:

I agree that they have every right to vote it down, but It is disingenuous and farcical to suggest that they would be able to negotiate anything better and then campaign to remain.  Why not just campaign for remain as why would the EU offer better terms when they know that the other side negotiating will not support any new agreement by campaigning for it anyway?   If you cannot see the lunacy of this approach then we will never agree.  

The four freedoms are non negotiable and indivisible.

 

The EU made that clear from the very start. Their position has not changed and will not change

 

This makes any sort of "deal" that comprimises these not possible to achieve. Hence the irish border becomes a problem for example.

 

All this talk of keeping no deal on the table and threatening this and that is twaddle because the eu know the best option is membership, they know itll hurt us more than them.

 

The only new deals possible would be norway style arrangements that wouldnt appeal to the hard right lunatic fringe and wouldnt be brexity enough. Theyd include things like freedom of movement which they think is extremely bad and very very unbrexity.

 

Given labour arent going to win an election id stop getting so hung up on their positions to be honest

[Salisbury Fox]

5 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Is Labour's position any more absurd than Cameron campaigning for remain or Theresa May - a staunch remainer - negotiating for us to leave?

I agree with you on both of these points and as I have said previously I am not absolving the Tories of responsibility.  I am however not sure that you can put the genie back in the bottle now.