Brexit!

[Jon the Hat]

7 minutes ago, rachhere said:

This is the conundrum really. It was portrayed as a simple process which would result in significant benefits for the country. The reality it seems is far different.

 

The majority voted to leave...But did they really know what they were voting for.

 

A people's vote still remains to me the only logical way to navigate this, but I do appreciate the tensions. 

They new exactly what they were voting for in my opinion; they all had their reasons which are many, but i have not foind many leavers who actually meant basically remain but with less power in Europe.  Remainers don't understand what Brexiteers voted for, and that is the problem.  They are STILL accusing leave voters of racism, ignorance etc, making no effort to understand it.

 

As I recall the government made it pretty clear there would likely be an impact on economic growth over time vs the status quo, and the people still voted to leave.  They chose a slower growing smaller country over a high immigration growth one.  Fair enough.

Edited 10 September 2019 by Jon the Hat

[z-layrex]

16 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

They new exactly what they were voting for in my opinion; they all had their reasons which are many, but i have not foind many leavers who actually meant basically remain but with less power in Europe.  Remainers don't understand what Brexiteers voted for, and that is the problem.  They are STILL accusing leave voters of racism, ignorance etc, making no effort to understand it.

 

As I recall the government made it pretty clear there would likely be an impact on economic growth over time vs the status quo, and the people still voted to leave.  They chose a slower growing smaller country over a high immigration growth one.  Fair enough.

At the time we had 4 Romanian families illegally living in a 2 bed flat next door, making our lives hell. Did this influence my vote? Absolutely it did. But I'll be accused of racism/xenophobia for admitting this is as a personal influence.

 

My fiance is Portuguese FFS.

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, simFox said:

It's just business. Remember the golden rule, he who has the gold makes the rules.

 

Why do you think Germany are the most powerful EU nation.

 

Edit: France is s great example. Sabre rattling with their own veto threats, they're just trying to get more for their own compliance, sweeter terms for the extension perhaps...

 

Every nation serves their best interests, that's just the way it works. You must be pretty naive if you think otherwise. Putting our PM into a negotiation, then binding him by law to accept an extension is the most ridiculous law I've ever heard.

I know very well that's the way it works as I've talked about it here before. I just reject it as asinine, puerile and unbecoming of a supposedly advanced species - and the sooner humans get over the whole idea of nationalist realpolitik the sooner we might actually be able to focus properly on some real problems rather than merely those we've made up for ourselves.

[yorkie1999]

1 hour ago, Babylon said:

Even when it's built on a bed of lies? Look I'm not one way or the other on this, I really don't give two hoots. But when people vote on the basis of lies, when all the talk post vote even by brexiteers that the deal would be the "“easiest in human history”. The fact we've now got to a point of leaving without a deal shows it's been a bit of a **** up. People didn't know what leave meant, there was no deal on the table for people to decide whether it's a good deal a bad deal or outright suicide when they ticked that box. Put the deals to the country and end this shit show once and for all. 

I think we'd end up with more people coming out of the shadows and voting for a hard brexit, mainly in protest at a government that hasn't honoured the wishes of the majority who probably thought that ticking "Leave the EU"  on the ballot paper actually meant leave the eu and not leave the eu but can you give us a few concessions.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

They new exactly what they were voting for in my opinion; they all had their reasons which are many, but i have not foind many leavers who actually meant basically remain but with less power in Europe.  Remainers don't understand what Brexiteers voted for, and that is the problem.  They are STILL accusing leave voters of racism, ignorance etc, making no effort to understand it.

 

As I recall the government made it pretty clear there would likely be an impact on economic growth over time vs the status quo, and the people still voted to leave.  They chose a slower growing smaller country over a high immigration growth one.  Fair enough.

On the contrary, I seem to be devoting way too much of my time trying to understand it. The problem is nobody has yet won me round to the way of thinking that it's a good idea in any form.

 

As I've said before, you could put all of the people I personally know who voted Leave into a room together and they'd never agree in a million years on what they wanted or were expecting if the vote went their way - and you admit yourself all had their own reasons (even if you then go on to assume they were all accepting we'd be living in a "slower growing smaller country over a high immigration growth one", which is not necessarily true from my experience from talking to Leave voters about their expectations). However we go out, a great deal of those who voted for it are going to end up disappointed and feel they were lied to by someone...

[LiberalFox]

You won't end this thing because you have to upset either the 52% (who might not be 52% anymore) or upset the 48% (who might not be 48% anymore).

[Babylon]

25 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

It wasn't on a bed of lies though, or at least no more than the remain campaign.  The vote was fine.  The debacle since though is down to two main factors - letting the EU take complete control of the negotiations by having no plan before triggering article 50, and the fact that parliament has really done it's best to thwart brexit since day one.  They have conspired to come up with something called Brexit but which isnt.  The EU have then exploited this to offer something which no country would or should ever except.

Now we are here, with no route out other than a late late compromise deal, which parliament is again undermining dramatically increasing the chance of the No deal they are trying to avoid.  They are trying for something impossible now unfortunately, and because they cannot see that, they are pushing us into No deal.  A shame and a ppor reflection on the last few years of our Parliament.

Have you actually read the manifesto and marketing stuff 

 

I didn't say both sides weren't culpable, but it wasn't a proper debate. That seems to have happened afterwards. 

[Babylon]

10 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

I think we'd end up with more people coming out of the shadows and voting for a hard brexit, mainly in protest at a government that hasn't honoured the wishes of the majority who probably thought that ticking "Leave the EU"  on the ballot paper actually meant leave the eu and not leave the eu but can you give us a few concessions.

Then so be it. 

 

I don't care, I just want an end to it and the only clear path I can see is another vote on the available options. 

 

It's all a total waste of time anyway, because a decade or two down the line we'll be going back in anyway as the older generations will have died off who mostly voted leave. 

Edited 10 September 2019 by Babylon

[pleatout]

I am genuinely interested if someone would define what leave actually means.

 

I understand remain - it's what we have - for good & bad.  

 

But as I understand it...

 

Leave - no deal.

Gives total control of borders, no free movement of labour or goods except it breaks the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement and will probably result in a return of the IRA etc.  Also will lead to massive disruption of goods coming into and out of the country.  WTO rules say you treat everyone the same, so you either check all goods coming in or none. If the desire is to control our borders then all goods need to be stopped and checked.

 

It is hard to find an economist that thinks it will make the economy anything other than worse.

It will be interesting to see what the Yellowhammer details are.  They are, after all Boris's own governments plans/forecasts.  Hard to call it Project Fear,

 

Leave May's deal

Treats N Ireland differently, will never be accepted by DUP.  The concentration has been on customs and goods when a large part of the leave agenda was immigration.  May's deal would do nothing for that.

 

Technology options around borders.

The EU produced a report that covered the use of technology for easing border/customs issues.  The 1st paragraph said that it didnt apply to people, again not helping the leave desire for control of immigration.

 

Norway model

The Norwegians dont really like it - they pay nearly as much as us for no say.

 

I do get a little tired of those that say I knew what I was voting for, I have listened and read more than many and I still have no idea what leave actually means. 

 

I dont mean "we are no longer in the EU", I mean how long will it take for the economy to recover? How many will lose their jobs? What is the impact on the NHS and the social care setup?  What are the benefits?

 

 

Please define what it is that you want.  When you write it down you will very quickly realise that you cant have it all.  And your "redlines" are different to other peoples "redlines" and they are mutually exclusive.

[LiberalFox]

3 minutes ago, pleatout said:

I am genuinely interested if someone would define what leave actually means.

 

I understand remain - it's what we have - for good & bad.  

 

But as I understand it...

 

Leave - no deal.

Gives total control of borders, no free movement of labour or goods except it breaks the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement and will probably result in a return of the IRA etc.  Also will lead to massive disruption of goods coming into and out of the country.  WTO rules say you treat everyone the same, so you either check all goods coming in or none. If the desire is to control our borders then all goods need to be stopped and checked.

 

It is hard to find an economist that thinks it will make the economy anything other than worse.

It will be interesting to see what the Yellowhammer details are.  They are, after all Boris's own governments plans/forecasts.  Hard to call it Project Fear,

 

Leave May's deal

Treats N Ireland differently, will never be accepted by DUP.  The concentration has been on customs and goods when a large part of the leave agenda was immigration.  May's deal would do nothing for that.

 

Technology options around borders.

The EU produced a report that covered the use of technology for easing border/customs issues.  The 1st paragraph said that it didnt apply to people, again not helping the leave desire for control of immigration.

 

Norway model

The Norwegians dont really like it - they pay nearly as much as us for no say.

 

I do get a little tired of those that say I knew what I was voting for, I have listened and read more than many and I still have no idea what leave actually means. 

 

I dont mean "we are no longer in the EU", I mean how long will it take for the economy to recover? How many will lose their jobs? What is the impact on the NHS and the social care setup?  What are the benefits?

 

 

Please define what it is that you want.  When you write it down you will very quickly realise that you cant have it all.  And your "redlines" are different to other peoples "redlines" and they are mutually exclusive.

This is why I don't really want another referendum, there's a great danger people will vote for the UNICORNS! option of "no deal". If we have a referendum without "no deal" on the ballot then it doesn't really solve anything either.

[Wortho]

1 hour ago, Babylon said:

Even when it's built on a bed of lies? Look I'm not one way or the other on this, I really don't give two hoots. But when people vote on the basis of lies, when all the talk post vote even by brexiteers that the deal would be the "“easiest in human history”. The fact we've now got to a point of leaving without a deal shows it's been a bit of a **** up. People didn't know what leave meant, there was no deal on the table for people to decide whether it's a good deal a bad deal or outright suicide when they ticked that box. Put the deals to the country and end this shit show once and for all. 

The referendum was two choices, Leave or remain. Nothing about deals or no deals. The appalling patronising of remainers saying that 'they didn't know what they were voting for', and that Leavers were all white people. 

[Babylon]

19 minutes ago, Wortho said:

The referendum was two choices, Leave or remain. Nothing about deals or no deals. The appalling patronising of remainers saying that 'they didn't know what they were voting for', and that Leavers were all white people. 

So why have the government, brexit MP's at that been spending years negotiating a deal if it was that binary?

 

What if they voted through a deal you didn't like? What if you were still tied in to numerous things you didn't want to be tied in to. The vote didn't stipulate how we were leaving. It just gave the government the green light to negotiate whatever deal they saw fit. You can still be out of the EU but "in" numerous other things you probably wouldn't like. 

 

 

Edited 10 September 2019 by Babylon

[leicsmac]

19 minutes ago, Wortho said:

The referendum was two choices, Leave or remain. Nothing about deals or no deals. The appalling patronising of remainers saying that 'they didn't know what they were voting for', and that Leavers were all white people. 

...is this really what this all boils down to, a simple dichotomy and "if you're not with us, you're against us"?

 

I can see why people would prefer that kind of clear-cut simplicity, but...really?

[Footballwipe]

1 hour ago, z-layrex said:

At the time we had 4 Romanian families illegally living in a 2 bed flat next door, making our lives hell. Did this influence my vote? Absolutely it did. But I'll be accused of racism/xenophobia for admitting this is as a personal influence.

 

My fiance is Portuguese FFS.

 

Hook onto the fact someone close to you isn't the same nationality as yourself and suddenly you're not a xenophobe. FFS there's no way you'd ever discriminate against foreigners because you're going to marry one. No siree, not on your nelly.

[Saxondale]

This pathetic notion that 'the referendum outcome must be honoured' is the most fatuous bullshit I've ever heard. It simply isn't true, and to try to make it an matter of democratic principle is disingenuous in the very least. The only reason it's wheeled out is because there is no other credible case left in favour of leaving the EU, since everything else has been dismissed as a lie or a wild misjudgment.

 

Of course the referendum outcome result shouldn't be honoured, for several clear and obvious reasons:

• The referendum result was bought illegally. You can't bury your heads on this one. It was bought illegally. The goons behind it are happy to brag about it when it suits them. If it wasn't for the Police curtailing their investigations due to political pressures, these people would be in prison now.
• The referendum was advisory only. The Cameron government could have made it binding, but they didn't. The government's most senior counsel, James Eadie QC, was wheeled into the High Court to defend the referendum result against a legal challenge. He won the judgement on the basis that the result might well have been illegal, but there's sod all you can do about it because it's advisory anyway so counts for nothing.
• The country has tried and failed to 'Brexit'. It doesn't work. Nothing can be agreed upon. There's not even a domestic consensus on how it should be done. So, even if you think the referendum result somehow is worthy of following, 'Brexit' has been attempted and has failed. It is a failed project, which should be put to bed. 

I know Leavers get very sniffy when 'patronising Remainers' tell them that they didn't know what they were voting for but - I'm sorry - you didn't. Even some senior MPs behind Leave clearly didn't understand what they were campaigning for. It's gone from 'no downsides, only considerable upsides' and 'the easiest deal in human history' to 'no deal is the only proper form of Brexit'. There's no shame in admitting you were conned. The villains are the people who conned you.

 

And let's be clear, 'no deal' has no credibility and shouldn't even be discussed. No deal would effectively make Britain a rogue nation that has reneged on its debts. What's more, in order to negotiate future trading relationships with the EU, we'd have retrospectively sort out the withdrawal arrangements (and outstanding payments) anyway. Not to mention the fact it would make Britain factually the least competitive trading nation in the entire world. 

[turkish14]

3 hours ago, David Guiza said:

Without meaning to sound like a fame-hungry Twitter teenager, I really am done with the abuse and bickering and have now reached a point where I think I just need to log out of everything and remember that, on the whole, people aren't as bad as they make out on the internet. 

 

I'm only 27 so I don't exactly have decades and decades of experience, but I can't remember another time when so many people in this country and beyond held such hatred and disregard for their fellow man (women and children too) on the basis of a differing opinion. The most recent example of which was Diane Abbott receiving yet more abuse from Brexiteers on Twitter for standing up to Lord Sugar for his constant abuse and victimisation of her. So many have replied saying that the personal abuse is justified because her views on Brexit and beyond. It's astounding, embarrassing and just upsetting that human beings have to take such flack from a group of morons who think the world owes them a living. 

 

Even beyond the abuse, I can't comprehend the amount of people whom are so adamant on subjects that they know little to nothing about. The days of listening to experts and then forming an opinion are long gone and replaced by hoards of legal, constitutional, economics and migration experts who get their vast array of knowledge from some plebs on Twitter. My knowledge on the economy, for example, is pretty limited so I am more than happy to listen to experts on both sides of the coin and then decipher a conclusion of my own, whilst also accepting that there is a good chance that I am wrong. Why is that such an abstract concept now? The amount of nonsense in this thread and beyond about law and the constitution (which we don't even have in a literal sense, seeing as we have an uncodified one) has made me want to pull each individual tooth out with a rusty set of pliers as a happier alternative.

 

We seem to heading towards a distopian world, whereby we are not defined by our careers, our achievements, our ambitions, but rather which box we ticked a few years ago. To some we seem to be leavers and remainers before friends, family and colleagues - it's mental.

 

To paraphrase the infamous Lawrence Oates (who I have recently discovered fathered a child with a 12 year old, who knew ?) I think I'm just going to log out, I may be some time.  

This!!!

 

for me, such is the lack of trust from all parties as to their true intentions, and regularly spouting Mumbo jumbo, I’ve become properly disengaged.

 

quite frankly I’m now idea what the **** is going on and where we are heading. I fear for the implications of whatever our leaders choose to do. That for now, I’m burying my head in the sand.

[Wortho]

5 minutes ago, Saxondale said:

This pathetic notion that 'the referendum outcome must be honoured' is the most fatuous bullshit I've ever heard. It simply isn't true, and to try to make it an matter of democratic principle is disingenuous in the very least. The only reason it's wheeled out is because there is no other credible case left in favour of leaving the EU, since everything else has been dismissed as a lie or a wild misjudgment.

 

Of course the referendum outcome result shouldn't be honoured, for several clear and obvious reasons:

• The referendum result was bought illegally. You can't bury your heads on this one. It was bought illegally. The goons behind it are happy to brag about it when it suits them. If it wasn't for the Police curtailing their investigations due to political pressures, these people would be in prison now.
• The referendum was advisory only. The Cameron government could have made it binding, but they didn't. The government's most senior counsel, James Eadie QC, was wheeled into the High Court to defend the referendum result against a legal challenge. He won the judgement on the basis that the result might well have been illegal, but there's sod all you can do about it because it's advisory anyway so counts for nothing.
• The country has tried and failed to 'Brexit'. It doesn't work. Nothing can be agreed upon. There's not even a domestic consensus on how it should be done. So, even if you think the referendum result somehow is worthy of following, 'Brexit' has been attempted and has failed. It is a failed project, which should be put to bed. 

I know Leavers get very sniffy when 'patronising Remainers' tell them that they didn't know what they were voting for but - I'm sorry - you didn't. Even some senior MPs behind Leave clearly didn't understand what they were campaigning for. It's gone from 'no downsides, only considerable upsides' and 'the easiest deal in human history' to 'no deal is the only proper form of Brexit'. There's no shame in admitting you were conned. The villains are the people who conned you.

 

And let's be clear, 'no deal' has no credibility and shouldn't even be discussed. No deal would effectively make Britain a rogue nation that has reneged on its debts. What's more, in order to negotiate future trading relationships with the EU, we'd have retrospectively sort out the withdrawal arrangements (and outstanding payments) anyway. Not to mention the fact it would make Britain factually the least competitive trading nation in the entire world. 

I have never read so much drivel. 

[Saxondale]

3 minutes ago, Wortho said:

I have never read so much drivel. 

Yeah, you'll not find rubbish like this in the Daily Mail.

[yorkie1999]

There must be a few Brexiteers on here, and remainers, so this place is the ideal platform to get rid of all this blame crap Why did you vote to leave the EU? Why did you vote to remain in the EU?

[Finnaldo]

8 minutes ago, Wortho said:

I have never read so much drivel. 

 

A worthy countenance fine fellow.

[Finnaldo]

1 minute ago, yorkie1999 said:

There must be a few Brexiteers on here, and remainers, so this place is the ideal platform to get rid of all this blame crap Why did you vote to leave the EU? Why did you vote to remain in the EU?

 

Probably worthy of a thread of it's own to be fair.

[StanSP]

Not all leave voters are racist but all racists voted leave. 

 

A great snippet by Will Self from an interview I can't find right now. 

[Sly]

1 hour ago, Babylon said:

Then so be it. 

 

I don't care, I just want an end to it and the only clear path I can see is another vote on the available options. 

 

It's all a total waste of time anyway, because a decade or two down the line we'll be going back in anyway as the older generations will have died off who mostly voted leave. 

This pretty sums up my opinion on the entire situation. 

[Sly]

4 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Not all leave voters are racist but all racists voted leave. 

 

A great snippet by Will Self from an interview I can't find right now. 

So very true! 

[Wortho]

4 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Not all leave voters are racist but all racists voted leave. 

 

A great snippet by Will Self from an interview I can't find right now. 

What a great snippet. That'll be 17.4 million of them.