Brexit!

[z-layrex]

1 hour ago, RobHawk said:

Why do brexiteers think it's ok to have another GE but not have another referendum? I can't see the argument for one but not the other. 

 

A general election may not solve anything. At least a second referendum would show what the public wants now it has a clear idea of what brexit entails. 

This argument is so stupid. It's like every time we have a bad government we should have another election because this one is ****ing it up and now we know what we voted for. The fact is remain are the ones having no regard for democracy and they don't even care about hiding it anymore. The country voted leave.

Edited 9 September 2019 by z-layrex

[lgfualol]

UK isnt a democracy, it is a kakistocracy.

Edited 10 September 2019 by lgfualol

[fuchsntf]

2 hours ago, z-layrex said:

This argument is so stupid. It's like every time we have a bad government we should have another election because this one is ****ing it up and now we know what we voted for. The fact is remain are the ones having no regard for democracy and they don't even care about hiding it anymore. The country voted leave.

Well its put paid to the electorate ever again trusting to go to the poles for another UK-referendum..!!!

Living abroad,seeing the Brexit issue from Another perspective,and being a remainer,there was a vote,and the Govt. hasnt respected the electorate wishes,und have actually ballsed up the whole issue.I believe quite sincerely,there wasnt a serious Brexiter in Parlament,including Johnson and Grove!!!!

Its all been deliberate smoke & mirrors,and from the start hidden Political  agendas.

Even the argument... "We didnt know what it so meant,and false information,and Scare mongering from both sides..."  Sorry I aint no super interlectual,but

i seen the Chaos coming,because of the delibrate lies,before and After the vote...

 

The Irish issue was not a suprise, No-deal is a contradictive argument....You want/voted out,there was no deal to have.

Though any clever UK-caring honourable politician,could have turned BREXIT into an unique UK-success and departure.

But they all Remembered it was The UK-political clans,themselves that had sold the Country Short over 40+ years,Not the EU rulings!!!!

Their Platform for Keeping a Blame Culture ticking over,has now been dismantled. They have to find a new scape-goat,

But wait a minute we can milk this for a few more years,and Keep blaming Johnny-Foreigner.....for our woes,so we dont have to Stand up and be

Country decision makers and do our job has responsible honourable politicians....

Ffs Keep returning with the same points, for over a year....!!

 

 

[inckley fox]

4 hours ago, z-layrex said:

This argument is so stupid. It's like every time we have a bad government we should have another election because this one is ****ing it up and now we know what we voted for. The fact is remain are the ones having no regard for democracy and they don't even care about hiding it anymore. The country voted leave.

The country also voted for that parliament.

 

You could argue that there are two abuses of power going on. The government's abuse of representational democracy, and the opposition's abuse of direct democracy. But it's incredibly one-sided to suggest that Johnson is showing perfect respect for democracy, whereas everyone else is shamelessly ransacking it.

 

The problem is that two different mandates are at play. The referendum's mandate to leave the European Union, without specifying exactly how (and crashing out certainly wasn't advocated by the bulk of Leave campaigners in the run-up to the referendum). In addition to that there's what was billed as the 'Brexit' GE, which was supposed to strengthen the mandate for a harder form of Brexit, but actually diminished it.

 

What a lot of political commentators around the world have done is pieced these two equally democratic mandates together and said that the best impression we've got of what the British people voted for (if we consider their views as a whole, rather than only those of the winners of the referendum and perceived winners of the GE) is an exit from the European Union, with a deal, and maintaining a very close relationship. Theresa May's deal, the one many of the current government voted down, probably wasn't a million miles off respecting that.

 

A lot of what people are saying on both sides is completely over-the-top. The rhetoric has gone so wild that we've lost sight of two obvious truths in any democracy: It's not good to override a referendum result we voted for. Neither is it great to undermine and deceive the parliament we elected.

 

And I'm not in favour of another referendum with Remain on it, but those who do aren't being undemocratic. To stall Brexit - yes, to scrap it - yes, to simply repeat a vote until you get the result you want - yes. But a referendum needn't do these things. The past 9 years of Tory-led government have given us three referendums, it'd be a bit rich for them to cry foul over opponents calling for a fourth designed to clarify the most important decision in our recent history. If it says "look, Brexit was always meant to be parliament's interpretation of Brexit and this is what that is, are you sure you still want it?"  then there's a valid argument for that in the context of a decade of referendum frenzy.

 

You could argue that holding a 'single issue' General Election like the one Johnson (and, until about five minutes ago, Corbyn) want is a bigger abuse of the natural purpose of a 'general' election, than anything another referendum would do to undermine democracy. Referendums decide single issues, not General Elections.

 

Personally, I believe that if it did happen it would have to, as a referendum, be a purposeful progression from the first one, and would have to acknowledge the first one. You might soon start to find some cross-party movement (thinking of the Kinnock lobby) towards a referendum on the different Brexit options, including May's deal and anything anyone else can drum up, with the exclusion of Remain and No Deal. It's a more likely path than a GE (which would probably end in a hung parliament) to a Brexit full stop, to delivering on both mandates, as well as to averting No Deal and all the social upheaval that will come with or without it.

 

Or maybe we should just all have a massive brawl instead.

Edited 10 September 2019 by inckley fox

[Trav Le Bleu]

6 hours ago, z-layrex said:

This argument is so stupid. It's like every time we have a bad government we should have another election because this one is ****ing it up and now we know what we voted for. The fact is remain are the ones having no regard for democracy and they don't even care about hiding it anymore. The country voted leave.

It also voted Whig in 1832, Liberal in 1865, Labour in 1929.

 

The country voted these parties into power and they no longer are, it's disgusting! Call ourselves a democracy?

 

 

The people having the ability to change previous decisions is what separates a democracy from an autocracy.

 

NB. I'm not saying a referendum would change anything, just that calling it undemocratic is not just baffling, but incorrect.

Edited 10 September 2019 by Trav Le Bleu

[joachim1965]

39 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

It also voted Whig in 1832, Liberal in 1865, Labour in 1929.

 

The country voted these parties into power and they no longer are, it's disgusting! Call ourselves a democracy?

 

 

The people having the ability to change previous decisions is what separates a democracy from an autocracy.

 

NB. I'm not saying a referendum would change anything, just that calling it undemocratic is not just baffling, but incorrect.

To change the previous decision before that decision has been implemented is un democratic.

[Wortho]

If the referendum result is not honoured then democracy in this country has ended.

[joachim1965]

8 minutes ago, Wortho said:

If the referendum result is not honoured then democracy in this country has ended.

Totally agree, but you and I know that it won't be.

[simFox]

3 hours ago, inckley fox said:

The country also voted for that parliament.

 

You could argue that there are two abuses of power going on. The government's abuse of representational democracy, and the opposition's abuse of direct democracy. But it's incredibly one-sided to suggest that Johnson is showing perfect respect for democracy, whereas everyone else is shamelessly ransacking it.

 

The problem is that two different mandates are at play. The referendum's mandate to leave the European Union, without specifying exactly how (and crashing out certainly wasn't advocated by the bulk of Leave campaigners in the run-up to the referendum). In addition to that there's what was billed as the 'Brexit' GE, which was supposed to strengthen the mandate for a harder form of Brexit, but actually diminished it.

 

What a lot of political commentators around the world have done is pieced these two equally democratic mandates together and said that the best impression we've got of what the British people voted for (if we consider their views as a whole, rather than only those of the winners of the referendum and perceived winners of the GE) is an exit from the European Union, with a deal, and maintaining a very close relationship. Theresa May's deal, the one many of the current government voted down, probably wasn't a million miles off respecting that.

 

A lot of what people are saying on both sides is completely over-the-top. The rhetoric has gone so wild that we've lost sight of two obvious truths in any democracy: It's not good to override a referendum result we voted for. Neither is it great to undermine and deceive the parliament we elected.

 

And I'm not in favour of another referendum with Remain on it, but those who do aren't being undemocratic. To stall Brexit - yes, to scrap it - yes, to simply repeat a vote until you get the result you want - yes. But a referendum needn't do these things. The past 9 years of Tory-led government have given us three referendums, it'd be a bit rich for them to cry foul over opponents calling for a fourth designed to clarify the most important decision in our recent history. If it says "look, Brexit was always meant to be parliament's interpretation of Brexit and this is what that is, are you sure you still want it?"  then there's a valid argument for that in the context of a decade of referendum frenzy.

 

You could argue that holding a 'single issue' General Election like the one Johnson (and, until about five minutes ago, Corbyn) want is a bigger abuse of the natural purpose of a 'general' election, than anything another referendum would do to undermine democracy. Referendums decide single issues, not General Elections.

 

Personally, I believe that if it did happen it would have to, as a referendum, be a purposeful progression from the first one, and would have to acknowledge the first one. You might soon start to find some cross-party movement (thinking of the Kinnock lobby) towards a referendum on the different Brexit options, including May's deal and anything anyone else can drum up, with the exclusion of Remain and No Deal. It's a more likely path than a GE (which would probably end in a hung parliament) to a Brexit full stop, to delivering on both mandates, as well as to averting No Deal and all the social upheaval that will come with or without it.

 

Or maybe we should just all have a massive brawl instead.

Johnson doesn't want no deal, he just needs to wield it as his bargaining chip. The fact is, the moment no deal was going to happen, you would see a great coming together and an 11th hour deal would be struck. This is what every leaver knows. The problem is remainers have no back bone. They also don't want to see it come to happen, because it will show what we all know, that they were wrong all along.

[Guest ttfn]

8 hours ago, z-layrex said:

This argument is so stupid. It's like every time we have a bad government we should have another election because this one is ****ing it up and now we know what we voted for. The fact is remain are the ones having no regard for democracy and they don't even care about hiding it anymore. The country voted leave.

Every time we have a bad government we do get a chance to hold another election to kick them out. This is an absolutely pivotal part of our democracy because it ensures that our executive is held to account. In fact we give them up to 5 years to get their act together and if they can’t they will lose the next election.

 

I’m not for a minute suggesting a referendum once every 5 years, ideally it should be generational (if that). Holding a generational vote like that on a simple majority with no definition as to how that majority’s wishes are implemented is obviously ridiculous and has led us to this situation now. But saying that we can’t have another referendum to clarify the result of the first one is incredibly short-sighted, and the use of the analogy to the general election cycle just goes to show how entrenched people are in their views.

 

We can and must hold those people who influence the way we vote to account. A true democracy allows people the option to change their minds some time later if what they voted for isn’t achievable or being pursued in the manner they thought it would. The way some baulk at the idea of a second referendum you’d think that the first vote only happened last week. It’s been 3 years of this paralysis now, surely if people still want to leave the EU they will once again vote for that?

 

Personally I’d be in favour of a second referendum with a 2/3 majority required to overturn the status quo, i.e to revoke article 50 there’d need to be a 2/3 majority. That should have been the case in the first instance for something this significant and failing to get that clarity has set us back 3 years.

Edited 10 September 2019 by ttfn

[RobHawk]

9 hours ago, BlueSi13 said:

Well how many shall we have until you get the result you want? 2? 3? 4?  What version of remain would be on the ballot paper?  If remain narrowly won a 2nd vote, how would you respect the wishes of leave voters?  Soft remain?

 

Also, what would be the point of a 2nd vote when the leaders of both the Liberal Democrats and Greens have said they wouldn't respect the vote if we voted Leave again.  Can guarantee many in Labour wouldn't respect it either.

 

The House of Commons now holds many MP's who have renaged on the manifestos they stood on in 2017 to win their seats.  A General Election is needed to allow the country a say on this and whether they agree with the way parliament is conducting its current business.

 

If the country votes in Labour either as a majority, or as part of some sort of coalition then I'm sure there will be a second referendum.  But first we need that General Election.  

There were so many potential versions of what brexit could mean at the last referendum (and election for that matter) it's now clear that we have 3 options:

 

Mays deal

No deal

Remain

 

Like many people, including alot of parliamentarians, I accepted the referendum result and whilst I didn't like it, I accepted we would probably leave on a soft brexit basis. Unfortunately, this option has been well and truly ****ed and is unlikely to end up back on the table. 

 

So going back to the people with the options that are on the table, in a referendum that is legally binding is imho the best option. 

 

I'm sure it won't be the last we here of Brexit whatever the outcome but it helps get us passed this immediate impasse. Yeah I'd like remain to win but if no deal won, then so be it. If the turkeys really want to vote for Xmas by lathering themselves up in goose fat and sitting in the oven, then at least that's been done on an informed basis.

 

Things change, as a democracy we get to change our minds on MPs every 5 years (or every 2 years at the current rate). 

 

Every GE we vote in MPs based on things they change their mind on. It's a huge problem with our parliamentary system. 

 

But the only reason parliament is ****ed right now is because brexit surged so far right with zero cross party talks when it mattered. The ERG are just as much to blame too so let's not make the it a remainder issue. 

 

Many respected MPs on all sides are fighting against no deal, not no brexit. 

 

We have a PM who thrives on chaos and is ready to **** the country by walking it into no deal. He's stopped negotiating, ****ed his party in half and No one trusts him either.

 

Yeah I want an election too, but I still don't think it will solve this brexit conundrum.

[RobHawk]

9 hours ago, z-layrex said:

This argument is so stupid. It's like every time we have a bad government we should have another election because this one is ****ing it up and now we know what we voted for. The fact is remain are the ones having no regard for democracy and they don't even care about hiding it anymore. The country voted leave.

If we negotiated a soft brexit deal, I think most remainders could stomach that. It's still not ideal in our minds but more accurately represents the 48%.

 

Problem is the hard brexiteers have been running the ship too long. They ruined brexit, no one else.

[Wortho]

1 hour ago, joachim1965 said:

Totally agree, but you and I know that it won't be.

If the referendum result is not enabled then voting in the future is meaningless.

 

BTW did anyone see Thornberry on tv this morning? What an embarrassment she is, talk about contradiction.

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, simFox said:

Johnson doesn't want no deal, he just needs to wield it as his bargaining chip. The fact is, the moment no deal was going to happen, you would see a great coming together and an 11th hour deal would be struck. This is what every leaver knows. The problem is remainers have no back bone. They also don't want to see it come to happen, because it will show what we all know, that they were wrong all along.

Or perhaps some people who opted for Remain dislike the idea of such ridiculous brinksmanship being needed or used in international relations the first place, and also don't buy into the confrontational "us and them" dichotomy that it is a seemingly key part of.

[simFox]

23 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Or perhaps some people who opted for Remain dislike the idea of such ridiculous brinksmanship being needed or used in international relations the first place, and also don't buy into the confrontational "us and them" dichotomy that it is a seemingly key part of.

It's just business. Remember the golden rule, he who has the gold makes the rules.

 

Why do you think Germany are the most powerful EU nation.

 

Edit: France is s great example. Sabre rattling with their own veto threats, they're just trying to get more for their own compliance, sweeter terms for the extension perhaps...

 

Every nation serves their best interests, that's just the way it works. You must be pretty naive if you think otherwise. Putting our PM into a negotiation, then binding him by law to accept an extension is the most ridiculous law I've ever heard.

Edited 10 September 2019 by simFox

[The Horse's Mouth]

3 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

It also voted Whig in 1832, Liberal in 1865, Labour in 1929.

 

The country voted these parties into power and they no longer are, it's disgusting! Call ourselves a democracy?

 

 

The people having the ability to change previous decisions is what separates a democracy from an autocracy.

 

NB. I'm not saying a referendum would change anything, just that calling it undemocratic is not just baffling, but incorrect.

That example falls flat when those governments served their time and the public decide on change. Brexit still hasn't happened DESPITE the public voting for it, if we enacted Brexit and then in 10 years time there was a referendum on whether the public had changed its mind and wanted to join the EU again then that would be fine and democratic 

[Alf Bentley]

2 hours ago, Wortho said:

If the referendum result is not honoured then democracy in this country has ended.

 

Wrong. Our democracy is not based on referendums and governments pushing through decisions without accountability.

We have a directly elected parliamentary democracy with govt accountable to parliament.

 

Technically, the referendum wasn't even legally binding: https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI94yxyunF5AIVCbrtCh3WtwWqEAAYASAAEgJrq_D_BwE

Now, even as a Remainer, I think it would have been wrong for govt/parliament to ignore the referendum result. But they didn't. They have simply been unable to agree what "the referendum result" means.

 

That's because "the referendum result" was as clear as mud, beyond saying that we'd leave the EU. Some thought "Leave" should mean leaving while cutting most ties or only retaining a remote relationship.

Others thought that it should mean leaving while retaining a close relationship with the EU. Others again thought that any negotiated outcome should be subject to confirmation by second referendum or election.

None of those interpretations are objectively wrong - because "the referendum result" was unclear, and our elected representatives have so far been unable to agree what it should mean.

 

Nothing here about democracy depending on referendums ..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_the_United_Kingdom

"A key principle of the British Constitution is that the government is responsible to Parliament. [...] All political decisions are taken by the government and Parliament. This constitutional state of affairs is the result of a long history of constraining and reducing the political power of the monarch, beginning with Magna Carta in 1215".

[FerrisBueller]

You could argue that implementing the result of an advisory referendum that has since been proved to be fraudulent, is not very democratic. The problem is 'Leave' is such a broad term, it was never defined in what manner we would leave. It's all got a bit cult like where people are actively pursuing a no deal, against their own interests to make some point about democracy. 

 

We need another referendum, where the options are clear and the public are properly informed.

Remain

Leave with a deal (work out the deal before signing article 50)

Leave with no deal.

[David Guiza]

Without meaning to sound like a fame-hungry Twitter teenager, I really am done with the abuse and bickering and have now reached a point where I think I just need to log out of everything and remember that, on the whole, people aren't as bad as they make out on the internet. 

 

I'm only 27 so I don't exactly have decades and decades of experience, but I can't remember another time when so many people in this country and beyond held such hatred and disregard for their fellow man (women and children too) on the basis of a differing opinion. The most recent example of which was Diane Abbott receiving yet more abuse from Brexiteers on Twitter for standing up to Lord Sugar for his constant abuse and victimisation of her. So many have replied saying that the personal abuse is justified because her views on Brexit and beyond. It's astounding, embarrassing and just upsetting that human beings have to take such flack from a group of morons who think the world owes them a living. 

 

Even beyond the abuse, I can't comprehend the amount of people whom are so adamant on subjects that they know little to nothing about. The days of listening to experts and then forming an opinion are long gone and replaced by hoards of legal, constitutional, economics and migration experts who get their vast array of knowledge from some plebs on Twitter. My knowledge on the economy, for example, is pretty limited so I am more than happy to listen to experts on both sides of the coin and then decipher a conclusion of my own, whilst also accepting that there is a good chance that I am wrong. Why is that such an abstract concept now? The amount of nonsense in this thread and beyond about law and the constitution (which we don't even have in a literal sense, seeing as we have an uncodified one) has made me want to pull each individual tooth out with a rusty set of pliers as a happier alternative.

 

We seem to heading towards a distopian world, whereby we are not defined by our careers, our achievements, our ambitions, but rather which box we ticked a few years ago. To some we seem to be leavers and remainers before friends, family and colleagues - it's mental.

 

To paraphrase the infamous Lawrence Oates (who I have recently discovered fathered a child with a 12 year old, who knew ?) I think I'm just going to log out, I may be some time.  

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, David Guiza said:

Without meaning to sound like a fame-hungry Twitter teenager, I really am done with the abuse and bickering and have now reached a point where I think I just need to log out of everything and remember that, on the whole, people aren't as bad as they make out on the internet. 

 

I'm only 27 so I don't exactly have decades and decades of experience, but I can't remember another time when so many people in this country and beyond held such hatred and disregard for their fellow man (women and children too) on the basis of a differing opinion. The most recent example of which was Diane Abbott receiving yet more abuse from Brexiteers on Twitter for standing up to Lord Sugar for his constant abuse and victimisation of her. So many have replied saying that the personal abuse is justified because her views on Brexit and beyond. It's astounding, embarrassing and just upsetting that human beings have to take such flack from a group of morons who think the world owes them a living. 

 

Even beyond the abuse, I can't comprehend the amount of people whom are so adamant on subjects that they know little to nothing about. The days of listening to experts and then forming an opinion are long gone and replaced by hoards of legal, constitutional, economics and migration experts who get their vast array of knowledge from some plebs on Twitter. My knowledge on the economy, for example, is pretty limited so I am more than happy to listen to experts on both sides of the coin and then decipher a conclusion of my own, whilst also accepting that there is a good chance that I am wrong. Why is that such an abstract concept now? The amount of nonsense in this thread and beyond about law and the constitution (which we don't even have in a literal sense, seeing as we have an uncodified one) has made me want to pull each individual tooth out with a rusty set of pliers as a happier alternative.

 

We seem to heading towards a distopian world, whereby we are not defined by our careers, our achievements, our ambitions, but rather which box we ticked a few years ago. To some we seem to be leavers and remainers before friends, family and colleagues - it's mental.

 

To paraphrase the infamous Lawrence Oates (who I have recently discovered fathered a child with a 12 year old, who knew ?) I think I'm just going to log out, I may be some time.  

Fully agree with your point, but as someone who enjoys your posts I hope you stay put.

 

Some pro-Leave posters on here act like all Remain voters exclusively know other Remain voters. One of my best mates voted Leave FFS.

[yorkie1999]

None of this would have happened in the first place if the UK had come up with some sort of immigration deal to prevent economic refugees jumping out the back of polish lorries on asda car-park  because i suspect that's the main reason why most people who voted to leave the EU voted that way, but maybe that's what the tory party wanted in the first place when Cameroon offered a referendum, devide and conquer and all that.

[Finnaldo]

6 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Without meaning to sound like a fame-hungry Twitter teenager, I really am done with the abuse and bickering and have now reached a point where I think I just need to log out of everything and remember that, on the whole, people aren't as bad as they make out on the internet. 

 

I'm only 27 so I don't exactly have decades and decades of experience, but I can't remember another time when so many people in this country and beyond held such hatred and disregard for their fellow man (women and children too) on the basis of a differing opinion. The most recent example of which was Diane Abbott receiving yet more abuse from Brexiteers on Twitter for standing up to Lord Sugar for his constant abuse and victimisation of her. So many have replied saying that the personal abuse is justified because her views on Brexit and beyond. It's astounding, embarrassing and just upsetting that human beings have to take such flack from a group of morons who think the world owes them a living. 

 

Even beyond the abuse, I can't comprehend the amount of people whom are so adamant on subjects that they know little to nothing about. The days of listening to experts and then forming an opinion are long gone and replaced by hoards of legal, constitutional, economics and migration experts who get their vast array of knowledge from some plebs on Twitter. My knowledge on the economy, for example, is pretty limited so I am more than happy to listen to experts on both sides of the coin and then decipher a conclusion of my own, whilst also accepting that there is a good chance that I am wrong. Why is that such an abstract concept now? The amount of nonsense in this thread and beyond about law and the constitution (which we don't even have in a literal sense, seeing as we have an uncodified one) has made me want to pull each individual tooth out with a rusty set of pliers as a happier alternative.

 

We seem to heading towards a distopian world, whereby we are not defined by our careers, our achievements, our ambitions, but rather which box we ticked a few years ago. To some we seem to be leavers and remainers before friends, family and colleagues - it's mental.

 

To paraphrase the infamous Lawrence Oates (who I have recently discovered fathered a child with a 12 year old, who knew ?) I think I'm just going to log out, I may be some time.  

 

I'm not far off you mate. I know family and friends alike who are voted Leave and I have no problems having polite conversation with them (I only decided my vote a couple weeks before the referendum) yet online you can't put across a point without some form of condescension on either side.Not worth the fuss at this point.

[Babylon]

3 hours ago, Wortho said:

If the referendum result is not honoured then democracy in this country has ended.

Even when it's built on a bed of lies? Look I'm not one way or the other on this, I really don't give two hoots. But when people vote on the basis of lies, when all the talk post vote even by brexiteers that the deal would be the "“easiest in human history”. The fact we've now got to a point of leaving without a deal shows it's been a bit of a **** up. People didn't know what leave meant, there was no deal on the table for people to decide whether it's a good deal a bad deal or outright suicide when they ticked that box. Put the deals to the country and end this shit show once and for all. 

[rachhere]

33 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Even when it's built on a bed of lies? Look I'm not one way or the other on this, I really don't give two hoots. But when people vote on the basis of lies, when all the talk post vote even by brexiteers that the deal would be the "“easiest in human history”. The fact we've now got to a point of leaving without a deal shows it's been a bit of a **** up. People didn't know what leave meant, there was no deal on the table for people to decide whether it's a good deal a bad deal or outright suicide when they ticked that box. Put the deals to the country and end this shit show once and for all. 

This is the conundrum really. It was portrayed as a simple process which would result in significant benefits for the country. The reality it seems is far different.

 

The majority voted to leave...But did they really know what they were voting for.

 

A people's vote still remains to me the only logical way to navigate this, but I do appreciate the tensions. 

[Jon the Hat]

37 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Even when it's built on a bed of lies? Look I'm not one way or the other on this, I really don't give two hoots. But when people vote on the basis of lies, when all the talk post vote even by brexiteers that the deal would be the "“easiest in human history”. The fact we've now got to a point of leaving without a deal shows it's been a bit of a **** up. People didn't know what leave meant, there was no deal on the table for people to decide whether it's a good deal a bad deal or outright suicide when they ticked that box. Put the deals to the country and end this shit show once and for all. 

It wasn't on a bed of lies though, or at least no more than the remain campaign.  The vote was fine.  The debacle since though is down to two main factors - letting the EU take complete control of the negotiations by having no plan before triggering article 50, and the fact that parliament has really done it's best to thwart brexit since day one.  They have conspired to come up with something called Brexit but which isnt.  The EU have then exploited this to offer something which no country would or should ever except.

Now we are here, with no route out other than a late late compromise deal, which parliament is again undermining dramatically increasing the chance of the No deal they are trying to avoid.  They are trying for something impossible now unfortunately, and because they cannot see that, they are pushing us into No deal.  A shame and a ppor reflection on the last few years of our Parliament.