The “ I’ve got something to say, but it doesn’t warrant its own thread “ thread.

[Free Falling Foxes]

14 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

However, once you get to 2nd and 3rd generations, things have leveled out and their culture is more British than whatever their parents' was.

 

I would like to think this is the case. However, does that imply degrees of 'Britishness'

Debating exactly what is British can be debated elsewhere but just taking it as a generic term for now, I am convinced I am 100% British. It is where my heart and allegiance lies.

With 1st, 2nd, 3rd degree generation of immigrants, I have experienced 'selective' alliances, depending on the situation.

I have a colleague who discribes himself as British, after all he has a British passport and his children were born here. He does confess his support for all things Indian in almost every other respect however. Yes, it's his heritage, so is understandable but it does, nonetheless, dilute any 'pure' nationalist tendencies which can be a concern during unstable times.

Another chap I know, born and bred here said, when we were discussing holidays, that he was going home for his. I joked, 'What? Beaumont Leys' . "No no", he replied. "India"

One final example was another who said, 'It's not my f ing country', when he was upset with things.

It does make me wonder, especially with this increasingly unstable world we live in, that there could be many who despite being officially 'British' would turn turtle if needs must.

I think this, is what may concern opponents of historic and ongoing immigration .

We need to hope that most - I doubt all - will proudly serve this nation without distraction as many of their fore fathers did.

 

 

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

I would like to think this is the case. However, does that imply degrees of 'Britishness'

Debating exactly what is British can be debated elsewhere but just taking it as a generic term for now, I am convinced I am 100% British. It is where my heart and allegiance lies.

With 1st, 2nd, 3rd degree generation of immigrants, I have experienced 'selective' alliances, depending on the situation.

I have a colleague who discribes himself as British, after all he has a British passport and his children were born here. He does confess his support for all things Indian in almost every other respect however. Yes, it's his heritage, so is understandable but it does, nonetheless, dilute any 'pure' nationalist tendencies which can be a concern during unstable times.

Another chap I know, born and bred here said, when we were discussing holidays, that he was going home for his. I joked, 'What? Beaumont Leys' . "No no", he replied. "India"

One final example was another who said, 'It's not my f ing country', when he was upset with things.

It does make me wonder, especially with this increasingly unstable world we live in, that there could be many who despite being officially 'British' would turn turtle if needs must.

I think this, is what may concern opponents of historic and ongoing immigration .

We need to hope that most - I doubt all - will proudly serve this nation without distraction as many of their fore fathers did.

 

 

With respect, I believe this to be a false dilemma. 

 

This is because, in this day and age of warfare, if the time comes where the UK has to rely upon such individuals (non volunteer conscripts, no matter what their heritage) in a time of conflict, then things have gotten to the stage of being so dire that everyone is screwed whether they choose to help, or if they don't. 

 

If there's a situation anyone can think of where that's not the case, I'd be happy to hear about it. 

[Kopic]

2 hours ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

I would like to think this is the case. However, does that imply degrees of 'Britishness'

Debating exactly what is British can be debated elsewhere but just taking it as a generic term for now, I am convinced I am 100% British. It is where my heart and allegiance lies.

With 1st, 2nd, 3rd degree generation of immigrants, I have experienced 'selective' alliances, depending on the situation.

I have a colleague who discribes himself as British, after all he has a British passport and his children were born here. He does confess his support for all things Indian in almost every other respect however. Yes, it's his heritage, so is understandable but it does, nonetheless, dilute any 'pure' nationalist tendencies which can be a concern during unstable times.

Another chap I know, born and bred here said, when we were discussing holidays, that he was going home for his. I joked, 'What? Beaumont Leys' . "No no", he replied. "India"

One final example was another who said, 'It's not my f ing country', when he was upset with things.

It does make me wonder, especially with this increasingly unstable world we live in, that there could be many who despite being officially 'British' would turn turtle if needs must.

I think this, is what may concern opponents of historic and ongoing immigration .

We need to hope that most - I doubt all - will proudly serve this nation without distraction as many of their fore fathers did.

 

 

I was born in England, as were my parents. My mum's dad was Polish.

 

My Grandad fought in WW2, in quite prominent/important battles. His entire family were put in concentration camps (and killed) by the Russians. He managed to escape, by literally walking from northern Siberia to Kazakhstan. He came to England after the war as part of some bollocks re-homing scheme that offered absolutely nothing other than a prison cell bed for free. To move here, he had to give up all his and his family's assets in Poland to the government. My grandfather was from a quite well to do family with profitable businesses; in fact the family was a direct decendent of Polish royalty (castles, homes and all) - all given away to the UK to simply live, stay alive. Once here, he suffered absolutely horrific racism, threats, someone firebomed his home. He learnt English by going to the cinema. He was extremely clever, within the army he was an engineer/code breaker. For work here, the best he could get, due to the language barrier, was a vacuum repair person. He raised a family here, but he refused to teach any of them Polish due to what he experienced. His kids were English, to hide the shame that had been forced upon himself.

 

If we were to go to war, properly, conscription etc, I would be straight out the door to the first safe place. This country couldn't give a shit about you. You're expendable. Why would I fight for this? My grandfather sacrificed so much and what did he achieve? Safety, yes, but at what cost? I would happily bounce around with no "home", rather than fight for some made up bollocks for some rich ****s that inherited their stolen wealth and power from people like my grandfather.

[bovril]

4 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

However, once you get to 2nd and 3rd generations, things have leveled out and their culture is more British than whatever their parents' was.

Maybe this isn't really what you're talking about In my experience 2nd and 3rd gen immigrants especially those under 30 are starting to associate much more with their families' native culture. Maybe because being British doesn't bring the same economic, social or cultural capital as it once did. Or the same tangible benefits. 

[bovril]

14 hours ago, grobyfox1990 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cje3rk4p39zwo
 

No 

It may not be cool but no polo shirts give you the same bang for your buck. Like by all means happy clap off to sunspel and buy a £120 happy clapper polo shirt, but nobody is going to tell the difference and it probably won't be more comfortable. 

[CornwallFox]

It's really irrelevant if people are British or not. When you actually get to know people and talk to them we all have pretty much the same values except for the bad 'unsc which exist everywhere. Hey a second gen immigrant from anywhere and they use British expressions, act as Brits in most ways, usually have more exciting food at home from their traditions. Whatever it is that today's right wingers are bleating on about with us apparently losing something called Britishness is utter codswallop. They just mean there's more brown people. 

 

28 minutes ago, bovril said:

Maybe this isn't really what you're talking about In my experience 2nd and 3rd gen immigrants especially those under 30 are starting to associate much more with their families' native culture. Maybe because being British doesn't bring the same economic, social or cultural capital as it once did. Or the same tangible benefits. 

Even if that was true I'd suggest it might have something to do with the utterly appalling culture war being stoked by farage, the telegraph etc which would make me rather nervous of Britain and brits if I had a more exotic heritage. We see more and more Brits acting, talking and sharing online appallingly awful versions of humanity. 

[bovril]

4 minutes ago, CornwallFox said:

It's really irrelevant if people are British or not. When you actually get to know people and talk to them we all have pretty much the same values except for the bad 'unsc which exist everywhere. Hey a second gen immigrant from anywhere and they use British expressions, act as Brits in most ways, usually have more exciting food at home from their traditions. Whatever it is that today's right wingers are bleating on about with us apparently losing something called Britishness is utter codswallop. They just mean there's more brown people. 

 

Even if that was true I'd suggest it might have something to do with the utterly appalling culture war being stoked by farage, the telegraph etc which would make me rather nervous of Britain and brits if I had a more exotic heritage. We see more and more Brits acting, talking and sharing online appallingly awful versions of humanity. 

England whether one agrees with it or not is a country that likes to celebrate minority cultures and is suspicious of the majority one. There's no other country I don't think where that is as common as here.

 

It's also imo a side effect of privatisation and the unravelling of the state. There's very little British left in Britain, which is one of the reasons the Celtic nationalisms have slowly grown over the last couple of decades. 

[grobyfox1990]

38 minutes ago, bovril said:

It may not be cool but no polo shirts give you the same bang for your buck. Like by all means happy clap off to sunspel and buy a £120 happy clapper polo shirt, but nobody is going to tell the difference and it probably won't be more comfortable. 

A good point re bang for your buck. I prefer mid market brands like all saints, hollister , jack wills as they suit my figure but defo are happy clapper approved. 
A valid question though, are the upmarket cashmere/wool brands worth it or made for BNPL happy clappers 

[Foxdiamond]

I'm usually a big defender of the BBC. I think it is a bit pathetic that they are going to devote an interview on a political show with Charles Spencer over his family spat with the king.

[Thefox81]

Ive had my most comfortable and long lasting pjamas and slippers from primark. £30. Still going 2 years later. Had many expensive ones but none come close to primark.

[Trav Le Bleu]

5 hours ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

I would like to think this is the case. However, does that imply degrees of 'Britishness'

Debating exactly what is British can be debated elsewhere but just taking it as a generic term for now, I am convinced I am 100% British. It is where my heart and allegiance lies.

With 1st, 2nd, 3rd degree generation of immigrants, I have experienced 'selective' alliances, depending on the situation.

I have a colleague who discribes himself as British, after all he has a British passport and his children were born here. He does confess his support for all things Indian in almost every other respect however. Yes, it's his heritage, so is understandable but it does, nonetheless, dilute any 'pure' nationalist tendencies which can be a concern during unstable times.

Another chap I know, born and bred here said, when we were discussing holidays, that he was going home for his. I joked, 'What? Beaumont Leys' . "No no", he replied. "India"

One final example was another who said, 'It's not my f ing country', when he was upset with things.

It does make me wonder, especially with this increasingly unstable world we live in, that there could be many who despite being officially 'British' would turn turtle if needs must.

I think this, is what may concern opponents of historic and ongoing immigration .

We need to hope that most - I doubt all - will proudly serve this nation without distraction as many of their fore fathers did.

 

 

I've heard equally white British speaking of Britain in disparaging terms, that they'd rather live elsewhere, etc.

 

It took hundreds of years for Saxons to accept Normans, but now most people wouldn't have a clue which they were defended from (in all but a very few cases, both) in the end it all gets forgotten.

 

I find it hilarious that many people with racist views will argue that it's the British culture they want to preserve, whilst eating curries and kebabs, listening to Latin r&b music and watching Hollywood blockbusters.

 

In truth British culture, like any other country, is the preference and traditions of the people who live there and the people who live there constantly change. So it's all a mishmash.

 

So much of British culture was historically brought here from foreign shores. And you can argue against that until you're blue in the face...

 

Which you might be if you kept to actual British culture.

 

 

[CornwallFox]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

England whether one agrees with it or not is a country that likes to celebrate minority cultures and is suspicious of the majority one. There's no other country I don't think where that is as common as here.

 

It's also imo a side effect of privatisation and the unravelling of the state. There's very little British left in Britain, which is one of the reasons the Celtic nationalisms have slowly grown over the last couple of decades. 

Now before I say this, we are allowed to agree to disagree, I'm not shouting this, I'm just saying it. I feel I should caveat anything political because I don't want to be cut off from any more of the site. 

 

I disagree. I have no idea what part of British culture you think is sidelined. Last night of the proms? The royal family? The FA Cup final? Fish and chips? Rainy days at the seaside? Coming last at Eurovision? 

 

Do you mean flag waving? Because that's all I can think you might mean. In which case flag waving is absolutely fine at any normal time for waving a flag. If, however, you're waving one, or attaching a Chinese made flag halfway up a lamppost, to signal that you don't like immigrants, then that isn't really British culture. 

 

I have no idea which bit of Britain you think had left Britain? It's all still here. It's the same. All that's changed over time is that there are additional opportunities, peoples, relationships, cuisines, clothing, and cultures that exist in harmony. The main cause of disharmony is the far right. 

[Trav Le Bleu]

11 minutes ago, Thefox81 said:

Ive had my most comfortable and long lasting pjamas and slippers from primark. £30. Still going 2 years later. Had many expensive ones but none come close to primark.

Your pjs normally last you less than two years?!?!?!?

 

 

What are you doing in them?

[CornwallFox]

6 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Your pjs normally last you less than two years?!?!?!?

 

 

What are you doing in them?

Another thing I have no idea about then.....why anybody wants to wear pjs 

[NAKC20]

9 hours ago, CornwallFox said:

Another thing I have no idea about then.....why anybody wants to wear pjs 

Because they are better walking around your local shopping centre rather then in your birthday suit

[Free Falling Foxes]

11 hours ago, Kopic said:

I was born in England, as were my parents. My mum's dad was Polish.

 

My Grandad fought in WW2, in quite prominent/important battles. His entire family were put in concentration camps (and killed) by the Russians. He managed to escape, by literally walking from northern Siberia to Kazakhstan. He came to England after the war as part of some bollocks re-homing scheme that offered absolutely nothing other than a prison cell bed for free. To move here, he had to give up all his and his family's assets in Poland to the government. My grandfather was from a quite well to do family with profitable businesses; in fact the family was a direct decendent of Polish royalty (castles, homes and all) - all given away to the UK to simply live, stay alive. Once here, he suffered absolutely horrific racism, threats, someone firebomed his home. He learnt English by going to the cinema. He was extremely clever, within the army he was an engineer/code breaker. For work here, the best he could get, due to the language barrier, was a vacuum repair person. He raised a family here, but he refused to teach any of them Polish due to what he experienced. His kids were English, to hide the shame that had been forced upon himself.

 

If we were to go to war, properly, conscription etc, I would be straight out the door to the first safe place. This country couldn't give a shit about you. You're expendable. Why would I fight for this? My grandfather sacrificed so much and what did he achieve? Safety, yes, but at what cost? I would happily bounce around with no "home", rather than fight for some made up bollocks for some rich ****s that inherited their stolen wealth and power from people like my grandfather.

Sadly, the way your Grandfather was treated, was replicated amongst thousands of returning veterans. 

They said it would be an 'Home for hero's'.

For many it was squalor, poor housing, no jobs, no support and not enough food.

@leicsmac re

14 hours ago, leicsmac said:

This is because, in this day and age of warfare, if the time comes where the UK has to rely upon such individuals (non volunteer conscripts, no matter what their heritage) in a time of conflict, then things have gotten to the stage of being so dire that everyone is screwed whether they choose to help, or if they don't

I think there will be a stage before this - which we are already seeing.

Russia are recruiting individuals in this county to carryout subversive operations already. If your true 'aligence' is elsewhere, then it could offer rich picking for such clandestine operations.

An enemy within if you like.

 

 

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

I think there will be a stage before this - which we are already seeing.

Russia are recruiting individuals in this county to carryout subversive operations already. If your true 'aligence' is elsewhere, then it could offer rich picking for such clandestine operations.

An enemy within if you like.

 

 

I agree that is a problem, however that is by no means a new problem, it's been something the security services (and their predecessors) have been having to deal with for near on a century now. 

 

As much as I see the argument here, I don't see how much of an effect it has on the landscape in the context it's been given in at the moment. Everyone's level of loyalty to the nation they live in is a matter of their own conscience, trying to assume or engineer otherwise almost always ends badly.

 

In any case, this does end up going back to the various meanings behind patriotism and nationalism that have been talked about on here before. And my own viewpoints on that have been made very clear.

[Sampson]

17 hours ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

I would like to think this is the case. However, does that imply degrees of 'Britishness'

Debating exactly what is British can be debated elsewhere but just taking it as a generic term for now, I am convinced I am 100% British. It is where my heart and allegiance lies.

With 1st, 2nd, 3rd degree generation of immigrants, I have experienced 'selective' alliances, depending on the situation.

I have a colleague who discribes himself as British, after all he has a British passport and his children were born here. He does confess his support for all things Indian in almost every other respect however. Yes, it's his heritage, so is understandable but it does, nonetheless, dilute any 'pure' nationalist tendencies which can be a concern during unstable times.

Another chap I know, born and bred here said, when we were discussing holidays, that he was going home for his. I joked, 'What? Beaumont Leys' . "No no", he replied. "India"

One final example was another who said, 'It's not my f ing country', when he was upset with things.

It does make me wonder, especially with this increasingly unstable world we live in, that there could be many who despite being officially 'British' would turn turtle if needs must.

I think this, is what may concern opponents of historic and ongoing immigration .

We need to hope that most - I doubt all - will proudly serve this nation without distraction as many of their fore fathers did.

 

 

Outside of a few hard-core I very much doubt many "fight for their country", even in the past. I think many fight for the family and friends or their beliefs. Although war and disaster certainly shift beliefs in a short time.

 

Countries also change quickly, Britain is also a federation of 4 countries and we only have really talked about Britain as a nation like that since WW2. If you look back at some of the WW1 and WW2 wartime propaganda stuff, a lot of it is about defending "the empire" and "fighting fir the king" and about fighting for those back home.

 

And in the last generation or rwo there has definitely been a shift in more abd more people defining themselves as English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish over British. The individual constituency country flags are now way more prominent than when you watch old clips from the 60s and 70s and it was much more about the British flag than the English or Scottish flag.

 

Furthermore amongst younger millenial gen Z voters, polls have continually showed tgat they continue to become more and more likely to define themselves as European than British or English - I imagine the Ukraine war has a lot to do with that.

 

But I think there is a generational shift here, the country is divided by generation politically in a far more radical and noticeable way then it ever has been before and a lot of the generation z and millennial who'll be the ones fighting, engineering, transporting and building towards any war effort are probably going to see siding with the Europeans and Canadians against the Russians and Americans far more about fighting for their beliefs than if they baby boomers have their way,vote in Farage or Badenoch and we end up fighting alongside the Americans and Russians. If these world tensions do endup spilling over into another war.

Edited 21 hours ago by Sampson

[The Bear]

13 hours ago, Thefox81 said:

Ive had my most comfortable and long lasting pjamas and slippers from primark. £30. Still going 2 years later. Had many expensive ones but none come close to primark.

Primark have decent stuff. A lot of my "dossing around at home" clothes are from there. Jumpers, t-shirts, jogging bottoms. 

 

But also my best jacket for going out in is from there and is really nice. 

[Stuntman_Mike]

40 minutes ago, The Bear said:

Primark have decent stuff. A lot of my "dossing around at home" clothes are from there. Jumpers, t-shirts, jogging bottoms. 

 

But also my best jacket for going out in is from there and is really nice. 

 

Reality.

[foxy tiler]

16 hours ago, Foxdiamond said:

I'm usually a big defender of the BBC. I think it is a bit pathetic that they are going to devote an interview on a political show with Charles Spencer over his family spat with the king.

I know there's a sizable amount of folk who are intrested in royalty but the way the media goes on I personally think they get far more air time than deserved. 

[Foxdiamond]

28 minutes ago, foxy tiler said:

I know there's a sizable amount of folk who are intrested in royalty but the way the media goes on I personally think they get far more air time than deserved. 

And the problem with Spencer banging on about it is that apart from the cash he is earning nothing useful will be gained from the tittle tattle. It's not looking at if the royals are benefiting the country or not but muck raking. Those that don't like the king will simply believe the poison and those that like him will reject it.  That the BBC political reporters are involved in this is not to their credit.