Why do we struggle against high pressing teams ?

[deanolegend1989]

Because we are so over reliant on Youri for creativity. If teams stop that, they stop us. The one thing to not do against us is to give us time and space so it played right into our hands.

Next week vs Brentford, this will be the type of game I cant see us winning. They dont have any superstars like Man Utd but they will be hustling, in our faces, young exuberant side which we wont handle.

Id be absolutely stunned if we win next weekend for this reason.

[fuchsntf]

21 minutes ago, deanolegend1989 said:

Because we are so over reliant on Youri for creativity. If teams stop that, they stop us. The one thing to not do against us is to give us time and space so it played right into our hands.

Next week vs Brentford, this will be the type of game I cant see us winning. They dont have any superstars like Man Utd but they will be hustling, in our faces, young exuberant side which we wont handle.

Id be absolutely stunned if we win next weekend for this reason.

Be prepared to be stunned...

[deanolegend1989]

20 minutes ago, fuchsntf said:

Be prepared to be stunned...

Hopefully! Make no mistake about it, IF(big IF) we did win, itll be a more impressive win than Vs Man Utd. It will require alot of running, pressing and graft, along with a rock solid defensive display.

 

Will be the difference if we are going to be pushing the top 6 or being a low midtable team, based of how we deal with these type of games.

[fuchsntf]

To Counter the press ,you find a Way to Move the ball quicker...

If one cant drive forward,then those triangles, should gets the "pressers" running back n forward,with no break-up.

 

Leicester has Rodgers himself has criticised since Jan-Feb last season..Too static, & far too slow deciding in moving,releasing  the ball around..

A Team like Manutd  have Quality individuals who can quickly break the line,

its their Major release, Bit they arent playing as a confident team..

Yesterday they started with the high press und First 10 -15 minutes were irritating & dangerous,

But we seemed then to find our own triangles/Double Passes

that took that pressure off their press.

 

I actually Think 98% of Teams are susceptable  in any game to the Long press,

its parts of the game,IMO depends a lot on players individual Drive & mental

approach & over a period the managers  team preperation...

The  game-day winners, are  those that handled & found a way around the oppos-press

& with Control Soak up, the ensuing pressure...

 

 

Edited 18 October 2021 by fuchsntf

[volpeazzurro]

Probably we've been poor because of the the formations and style of play we've adopted at times?

 

Didn't we used to be the masters of it ourselves but suddenly stopped? Yes, Liverpool and Manchester City etc were/are good at it, but we were non too shabby either.

 

Continually trying to play out of the back against such teams in a ponderous manner merely plays into the hands of such tactics, however, wouldn't the occasional even speculative ball over the top or down the channels to a Barnes or Vardy racing onto them have given some of the lesser proponents of it a bit to chew on? 🤔 

Many of them would be scuttling back like scalded cats and ultimately be reticent to keep trying it. We may have even nicked the odd goal.

 

Total football not possession football for possessions sake.

[fuchsntf]

13 minutes ago, deanolegend1989 said:

Hopefully! Make no mistake about it, IF(big IF) we did win, itll be a more impressive win than Vs Man Utd. It will require alot of running, pressing and graft, along with a rock solid defensive display.

 

Will be the difference if we are going to be pushing the top 6 or being a low midtable team, based of how we deal with these type of games.

Yes we have to dampen & quell that successful ,Quality promoted teams, first season enthusiam..

Like you mention ,to prove we are that consistent Top 6 challenger worthy  its to deal with these type of games...

[sacreblueits442]

13 hours ago, deanolegend1989 said:

Because we are so over reliant on Youri for creativity. If teams stop that, they stop us. The one thing to not do against us is to give us time and space so it played right into our hands.

Next week vs Brentford, this will be the type of game I cant see us winning. They dont have any superstars like Man Utd but they will be hustling, in our faces, young exuberant side which we wont handle.

Id be absolutely stunned if we win next weekend for this reason.

...by going back to front, we can effectively bypass the midfield and with our runners it could be a suicide ploy from Brentford!!!

 Youri not so good when pressed, so possibly a three in midfield to give him more space to operate.

  Failing that Brentford might just decide to sit off us, having seen the United game and attempt to play us on the counter.

[Deeg67]

Having a keeper who's shocking at distribution doesn't help.  We need to be quicker, more decisive, more direct.  But there are also times where Kasper should just punt it long and bypass all that.

 

Not an issue yesterday because Man U. simply doesn't have the personnel to high press effectively.  They have a good side but that's not part of their weaponry.

[sylofox]

Just like the teams that sit deep on us. We dont move the ball quickly enough and creat breaks.

 

So many games so far this season we've moved the ball around at one pace and we struggle. But put some urgency in it and see what we can achieve.

[fuchsntf]

13 hours ago, volpeazzurro said:

Probably we've been poor because of the the formations and style of play we've adopted at times?

 

Didn't we used to be the masters of it ourselves but suddenly stopped? Yes, Liverpool and Manchester City etc were/are good at it, but we were non too shabby either.

 

Continually trying to play out of the back against such teams in a ponderous manner merely plays into the hands of such tactics, however, wouldn't the occasional even speculative ball over the top or down the channels to a Barnes or Vardy racing onto them have given some of the lesser proponents of it a bit to chew on? 🤔 

Many of them would be scuttling back like scalded cats and ultimately be reticent to keep trying it. We may have even nicked the odd goal.

 

Total football not possession football for possessions sake.

Ist Not the ideology of playing out from the back, thats at fault, but us then holding too long onto the ball ,& not quickly moving it forward to either our

Midfield or players making runs finding space...we are taking too long looking for the perfect pass..

[volpeazzurro]

2 minutes ago, fuchsntf said:

Ist Not the ideology of playing out from the back, thats at fault, but us then holding too long onto the ball ,& not quickly moving it forward to either our

Midfield or players making runs finding space...we are taking too long looking for the perfect pass..

Totally agree, you put it better than me and whilst we're looking to find that perfect pass two things seem to occur. We vastly seem to increase the chances of being dispossessed and also, if Vardy or whoever makes a decent run, they're easily picked up and virtually smothered by the opposition. 

 

The theory is great but as it had been persisting for such a long time it makes me wonder two things. One, have we got the sufficient calibre of player to play a heavily possession based style of football (afterall, we can't reasonably expect to have the likes of a Xavi, Iniesta and Busqets etc) or, two, have they been potentially been overtrained/brainwashed to the extent that fear of giving the ball away has actually superceded playing viable football?

 

It did seem to be that on Saturday that, following a tentative start, a little more freedom had been allowed to try and play the odds more. Either the players thought bollocks to this, we're fed up of all this shite, we'll do it our own way, or, a different sort of briefing was given to them by Rodgers. I don't think it's the former as despite results and a certain amount of frustration, I don't believe the manager has lost the dressing room. The latter seems more feasible and I hope it continues. If the same attitude had been adopted against the the likes of our lesser opponents over the last few months I think things might have looked entirely different. Whilst trying to attain a top 4 position this season is entirely different to the last two, I still honestly believe that we have more than enough talent in our squad to cause opposition sides some serious problems. I still feel that a top 6 finish is very attainable. Also, if we can take a similar attitude into the Moscow game and get a win, then we can still have a decent opportunity to progress in Europe this season also.

[The People's Hero]

Someone said earlier in this thread that we play short too much. This is so very nearly the complete answer here so I'm going to expand on that a little.

 

The short passes and playing out from the back are intended to draw the press; we want teams to press us. When that press comes; ideally you should find that at least one of your defensive players has a fairly easy (but sometimes more direct/longer) pass in to space/a man where the opposition have vacated the space to press.

 

In other words; inviting the press is a means of getting the opposition players outside of their ideal (passive) defensive position and in to a more aggressive ball hunting position. If you yourselves have good discipline (and big balls), your pivot players and even those further forward sometimes like Maddison/Tielemans, should be in more space. It does rely on those players going and seeking out the pockets sometimes; or for the players passing the ball to actually just pass in to vacated space and our players to 'get there'.

 

What we haven't been very good at, in my view at least, is actually playing that ball through the press. I don't actually entirely blame the defenders here (although their distribution/vision is a factor) but some of the blame goes on our attacking players and pivot players not being smart enough to create (or just occupy) the resultant space and gaps. When it isn't working, we have also been too slow or unwilling to try simply playing more direct, running the channels, finding runners early, getting defenders running towards their own goal, etc.

 

The other part of this is ball carrying defenders; they can give you a heart attack at times, but actually you do need a Fofana / Evans / Maguire (!) and occasionally Soy type characters to carry the ball forward. Sometimes teams don't press properly (1 x lazy striker?) or just get it wrong, or deliberately let a defender carry the ball out of the back line. That is a very powerful weapon when used well. Without Evans, I just don't think we've been organised enough with who's going and who isn't and so we can get penned in; and then just lose the ball.

 

Further, Liverpool and Man City (and arguably West Ham this season) are such excellent pressers of the ball (generally) because they are fit and hardworking teams and they are extremely well coached. It doesn't always work for Man City and they've probably over-pressed us at times (partly why Vardy loves playing them) but the difference between their press and the press of Spurs, Newcastle and Everton (to complete the 4 teams I watched yesterday) highlights that gulf immediately.

 

You then get teams that only press when you cross half way, or where only the strikers press (we did this if you go back a bit) or where the ball going to a particular (weak on the ball?) player in the right part of the pitch triggers a press.

 

There's plenty to it; but generally speaking we've just not been good enough at playing through the press; partly due to Evans/Fofana being missing in my view and partly as the attacking players have made it hard for those trying to break the press.

 

One very final point is that Ndidi is a genuinely excellent player; but is next to useless in breaking a press. I often feel he should be the 'decoy' when we are trying to do so. Soumare looks equipped to be much better at that; but unlikely to be as good a ball winner.

 

Just my 2p.

 

 

[sacreblueits442]

57 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

Totally agree, you put it better than me and whilst we're looking to find that perfect pass two things seem to occur. We vastly seem to increase the chances of being dispossessed and also, if Vardy or whoever makes a decent run, they're easily picked up and virtually smothered by the opposition. 

 

The theory is great but as it had been persisting for such a long time it makes me wonder two things. One, have we got the sufficient calibre of player to play a heavily possession based style of football (afterall, we can't reasonably expect to have the likes of a Xavi, Iniesta and Busqets etc) or, two, have they been potentially been overtrained/brainwashed to the extent that fear of giving the ball away has actually superceded playing viable football?

 

It did seem to be that on Saturday that, following a tentative start, a little more freedom had been allowed to try and play the odds more. Either the players thought bollocks to this, we're fed up of all this shite, we'll do it our own way, or, a different sort of briefing was given to them by Rodgers. I don't think it's the former as despite results and a certain amount of frustration, I don't believe the manager has lost the dressing room. The latter seems more feasible and I hope it continues. If the same attitude had been adopted against the the likes of our lesser opponents over the last few months I think things might have looked entirely different. Whilst trying to attain a top 4 position this season is entirely different to the last two, I still honestly believe that we have more than enough talent in our squad to cause opposition sides some serious problems. I still feel that a top 6 finish is very attainable. Also, if we can take a similar attitude into the Moscow game and get a win, then we can still have a decent opportunity to progress in Europe this season also.

...it certainly feels like there has been additional input into his approach and tactics, in respect to the resulting performance!!!

It has been so long that he has continually used the same format and approach, and irrespective of the poor results he continued the same process. He said he has taken a different approach to the way he looks at our previous performances and effectively has had an epiphany as to the way we play and set up. You feel there must have been some other input, for him to adjust his thinking.

  Whoever or whatever has made him change his stance in relation to the team, long may it continue.

[5waller5]

Playing against a good press you have to move towards the ball to receive it, so midfielders will always be facing our goal when taking their first touch from a defender's pass.

 

With no press / a poor press they have the time to receive the ball in a static position and immediately turn to face the opponent's goal.

 

It's way harder attacking when you're facing 180 degrees the wrong way!

 

Or is that a wild oversimplify!?

[fuchsntf]

2 hours ago, The People's Hero said:

Someone said earlier in this thread that we play short too much. This is so very nearly the complete answer here so I'm going to expand on that a little.

 

The short passes and playing out from the back are intended to draw the press; we want teams to press us. When that press comes; ideally you should find that at least one of your defensive players has a fairly easy (but sometimes more direct/longer) pass in to space/a man where the opposition have vacated the space to press.

 

In other words; inviting the press is a means of getting the opposition players outside of their ideal (passive) defensive position and in to a more aggressive ball hunting position. If you yourselves have good discipline (and big balls), your pivot players and even those further forward sometimes like Maddison/Tielemans, should be in more space. It does rely on those players going and seeking out the pockets sometimes; or for the players passing the ball to actually just pass in to vacated space and our players to 'get there'.

 

What we haven't been very good at, in my view at least, is actually playing that ball through the press. I don't actually entirely blame the defenders here (although their distribution/vision is a factor) but some of the blame goes on our attacking players and pivot players not being smart enough to create (or just occupy) the resultant space and gaps. When it isn't working, we have also been too slow or unwilling to try simply playing more direct, running the channels, finding runners early, getting defenders running towards their own goal, etc.

 

The other part of this is ball carrying defenders; they can give you a heart attack at times, but actually you do need a Fofana / Evans / Maguire (!) and occasionally Soy type characters to carry the ball forward. Sometimes teams don't press properly (1 x lazy striker?) or just get it wrong, or deliberately let a defender carry the ball out of the back line. That is a very powerful weapon when used well. Without Evans, I just don't think we've been organised enough with who's going and who isn't and so we can get penned in; and then just lose the ball.

 

Further, Liverpool and Man City (and arguably West Ham this season) are such excellent pressers of the ball (generally) because they are fit and hardworking teams and they are extremely well coached. It doesn't always work for Man City and they've probably over-pressed us at times (partly why Vardy loves playing them) but the difference between their press and the press of Spurs, Newcastle and Everton (to complete the 4 teams I watched yesterday) highlights that gulf immediately.

 

You then get teams that only press when you cross half way, or where only the strikers press (we did this if you go back a bit) or where the ball going to a particular (weak on the ball?) player in the right part of the pitch triggers a press.

 

There's plenty to it; but generally speaking we've just not been good enough at playing through the press; partly due to Evans/Fofana being missing in my view and partly as the attacking players have made it hard for those trying to break the press.

 

One very final point is that Ndidi is a genuinely excellent player; but is next to useless in breaking a press. I often feel he should be the 'decoy' when we are trying to do so. Soumare looks equipped to be much better at that; but unlikely to be as good a ball winner.

 

Just my 2p.

 

 

Fair assesment...

 Don t forget we have all various theories & perspectives and only seen from a fans side....

Players react during the individual game on confidence, trust & insecurities....They look First for their own 'get out clauses" and not to be found dithering.

Plus we also forget, there will be times, where slowing the game down is deemed necessary,

& fans can in older  frustration also miss the point...

I believe this Time Rodgers was right in Coming put and Making those statements....

Puel and he have possibly protected the players too much,

Subtilly he was put it on himself to make the changes mentioned,which Shows he rightly Insuates

 "We" the team has to change something & show more intent that we mean & want to...

 

Even pushed & blind balls pushed forward, has been Working since the Palace game.

We put the positives around because of Evans, but on passing

around the Bline, he has also been found guilty...though tends to be the One who Decidess

enough is enough & either issues the order, or Drives forward himself..

He also has the Authority to tell Soumare, Ndidi, Tielemans,Barnes, to Move their ass a bit more  and Stop dwindling around...

Where as Amartey ,Soyu Dont Command that  Type of respect...

Edited 18 October 2021 by fuchsntf

[sacreblueits442]

48 minutes ago, 5waller5 said:

Playing against a good press you have to move towards the ball to receive it, so midfielders will always be facing our goal when taking their first touch from a defender's pass.

 

With no press / a poor press they have the time to receive the ball in a static position and immediately turn to face the opponent's goal.

 

It's way harder attacking when you're facing 180 degrees the wrong way!

 

Or is that a wild oversimplify!?

....then you have the third man running, as he is already triggered by the pass into midfield with the release from the midfielder going back to the defender who can then play a ball into space with the "third man" now in motion!!!

  You have to have confidence about overcoming the pressure on the ball, and the midfielder has to be comfortable in receiving and getting his first touch right.

[5waller5]

5 hours ago, sacreblueits442 said:

....then you have the third man running, as he is already triggered by the pass into midfield with the release from the midfielder going back to the defender who can then play a ball into space with the "third man" now in motion!!!

  You have to have confidence about overcoming the pressure on the ball, and the midfielder has to be comfortable in receiving and getting his first touch right.

Yeah exactly. Beating a high press is about confidence and skill, because the more you invite the pressure the better chance of beating it you have!

[yorkie1999]

Play 2 strikers and teams won’t play a high press against us.

[Winchesterfox]

We don't deal week with the high press.  Our midfielders don't show for the ball enough, so the defenders just pass it along the back line.  Kaspar's distribution often doesn't help - the 20-30 yard chip to a full back who is instantly under pressure.  

[Tom12345]

On 17/10/2021 at 14:40, marcymarc446 said:

Having watched the Utd game and again on Match of the day you could clearly see that they weren't playing a high pressing game. This made it easy for Tielemens to play through the middle with ease, he had a field day. But as soon as we play a high pressing team we really struggle to get the ball even to the half way line and then it looks like we're being passive.

How do we overcome this problem which we'll probably get again against Brentford.

You are right and this has been our problem for the past 18 months. Teams found us out. Playing a more attacking style is the way so we can push the teams back. With a lone striker system, they did not need to worry as much about us hooping it over. This is why playing Nacho is so important. His linkup play is excellent and he forces mistakes himself with Vardy at the other end so teams would need to sit back a bit to counter their threat.  We also need in that case to play better ball players - like Ricardo who can dribble and pass the ball as well as Soumare instead of Ndidi for example (although dropping Ndidi is really hard).

 

Have you noticed that there was not a single back pass to Kasper against Man U? Or did I miss any? 

[Deeg67]

3 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

Play 2 strikers and teams won’t play a high press against us.

Some of them will.  Brentford certainly will.

[fuchsntf]

14 hours ago, Deeg67 said:

Having a keeper who's shocking at distribution doesn't help.  We need to be quicker, more decisive, more direct.  But there are also times where Kasper should just punt it long and bypass all that.

 

Not an issue yesterday because Man U. simply doesn't have the personnel to high press effectively.  They have a good side but that's not part of their weaponry.

Actually I have Noticed in the last two games, Kasper has Kicked more from hand,without looking for exact placement...he was mixed it more...

[turlo]

Can someone let Brendan know what the solution is before the team come back out for the 2nd half!

[marcymarc446]

We are a nightmare in the first half until teams basically get leggy. Can't string 3 passes together under pressure !