Ukraine

[Fox1norfolk]

24 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

Haven't got the link but have just seen that Bernie Ecclestone interview where he calls Putin a first class and sensible person who's just made a bit of a mistake. 

 

These are the people who Putin has surrounded himself with. 

He should be included with the other Putin mates who have been sanctioned

[SpacedX]

12 hours ago, Heathrow fox said:

I won’t condemn Russia because that would make me a hypocrite.

Why? No political power is beyond condemnation for its actions - or ultimately, accountability. When a high precision missile hits a crowded shopping centre during trading hours packed with civilians, in an area of little to no strategic value, you know it's a personal calling card from Vladimir Putin. As we have become accustomed to, designed to break the will of the people and disrupt their attempts to maintain normality and stoically continue to live their lives in the face of an aggressive occupying nation. As I have patiently attempted to explain to you, even prior to this conflict, it's what he does, it was to be expected and we saw similar deliberate targeting of innocent defenceless civilians in Chechnya, Georgia and Syria. 

 

I'm not with you. Why would it be hypocritical for you to condemn this or the long list of atrocities and war crimes committed during this invasion? We can start with Bucha if you like. Surely this transcends any personal political loyalty, sympathies, affiliation or viewpoint? 

 

12 hours ago, Heathrow fox said:

we have fkwits as leader’s.Also getting pretty pissed off with our media’s pathetic attempts at propaganda.

 Because of course neither are applicable to the Russian Federation. 

 

I was recently recalling that Nikita Khrushchev used to refer to Nato controlled West Berlin as the testicles of Europe. During the height of the Cold War he would say that every time he wanted to apply pressure to the rest of Europe and make them squeal, he would put the squeeze on Berlin. As I suggested at the start of this war, today, that point of pressure is the Suwalki Gap, a 60 mile stretch of Polish-Lithuanian border territory between Belarus, (let's face it, a de-facto outpost of Russia's armed forces), and Kaliningrad. A single concerted military thrust through the gap together with naval supremacy/blockade in the Baltic and Russia can sever Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia from its European allies and establish a front from the Baltic to the Black Sea. For this reason it has long been identified by military strategists as one of the most vulnerable pressure points in NATO. The situation has heightened since Lithuania began blocking Russian access to its rail network to transport sanctioned goods to Kaliningrad. Putin is unlikely to launch an assault on the gap whilst waging a full-scale war, sorry, 'special military operation' against Ukraine but the biggest mistake a policy maker can make is to dismiss the possibility. 

 

The US has announced a permanent US base in Poland, whilst Lithuania - together with Estonia and Latvia are requesting a similar permanent stationing of NATO troops and Stoltenberg has already confirmed that its multinational high readiness force which can be deployed at a few days notice will be increased from 40,000 to 300,000 personnel. Add in NATO membership for Sweden and Finland and the associated neutrality which can be traced back to the early 19th Century - all of this really belongs in the current spectacular 'own goals' thread. 

 

 

Edited 30 June 2022 by Line-X

[fox_up_north]

As opposed to the billions that were factored in to furlough as just getting lost? 

[Countryfox]

10 hours ago, leicsmac said:

 

You can think as you like.

 

Personally, I thought the disclaimer at the start of the post was definitive enough and pardon me for presenting what the "other side" (bullshit realpolitik again) thinks (erroneous as it is) rather than just spouting "Vlad is a pillock"/other jingoistic rhetoric for the 4646411316464th time on this thread (when it really is patently obvious that he is and doesn't need much more emphasis).

 

People only spout about Putin when others (yourself included Mac) keep mentioning 'what the other side think' and also what the Yanks did in the past as if there is some sort of comparison and therefore justification.  The ONLY comparison between what Putin is doing now and what happened in the past is Hitler imo and his plan for extending the Reich by force and killing millions of people whilst doing it ...   all this well NATO did this and America did that is bolox. As someone else said above, he fancies himself as the new Peter the Great ffs ! ... thats all we need to know !   So, if that  "jingoistic rhetoric" is repeated "for the 4646411316464th time" then I will most likely reply to it as I do find it slightly irritating ...   as much as what I say seems to irritate you.  

 

P.S.  Love the bit about me spouting Vlad is a pillock ...   I'd perhaps describe my mate as that if he went to the bar and forgot my crisps (as he often does) ..  but to use that word to describe a man who has already destroyed the live of millions of innocent people and is only just warming up ...  nah ... not me.

 

 

Edited 30 June 2022 by Countryfox
Gramma !

[MustardTiger]

2 hours ago, Line-X said:

Putin is unlikely to launch an assault on the fap

No nut November getting spicy.

[bovril]

2 hours ago, fox_up_north said:

Haven't got the link but have just seen that Bernie Ecclestone interview where he calls Putin a first class and sensible person who's just made a bit of a mistake. 

 

These are the people who Putin has surrounded himself with. 

People from Suffolk. Evil all of them. 

[LCFCCHRIS]

I'm happy we're spending big on this. We're not doing this purely out of the goodness of our hearts, it's also for economic reasons in the future. This is an investment if you can call it that. It just helps that it's the morally right thing to do as well imo.

 

If Russia controls Ukraine, they control the grain that they grow, and also the gas that can be extracted from their land, they've got a lot of natural resources.

 

They've got us over a barrel enough with those resources, better not to let them do it more. 

 

 

[SpacedX]

45 minutes ago, MustardTiger said:

No nut November getting spicy.

Typo amended. 

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Countryfox said:

People only spout about Putin when others (yourself included Mac) keep mentioning 'what the other side think' and also what the Yanks did in the past as if there is some sort of comparison and therefore justification.

 

I'm sorry, but if what I've said about such viewpoints being erroneous and being presented purely for show, repeatedly and at length, hasn't been accepted by now, then that's a problem with you, not me. My position is abundantly clear.

 

1 hour ago, Countryfox said:

The ONLY comparison between what Putin is doing now and what happened in the past is Hitler imo and his plan for extending the Reich by force and killing millions of people whilst doing it ...   all this well NATO did this and America did that is bolox. As someone else said above, he fancies himself as the new Peter the Great ffs ! ... thats all we need to know !  

 

I think there's other historical dictators that he could be likened to also, but let's not get in the way of some Godwinning.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

 

1 hour ago, Countryfox said:

So, if that  "jingoistic rhetoric" is repeated "for the 4646411316464th time" then I will most likely reply to it as I do find it slightly irritating ...   as much as what I say seems to irritate you. 

Then I unreservedly apologise for the irritation caused but make no apologies whatsoever for presenting a viewpoint that I have extensively qualified and I believe belongs in the discussion, rather than true but repetitive stories about whatever horrible thing the Ruskies got up to today.

 

1 hour ago, Countryfox said:

 

P.S.  Love the bit about me spouting Vlad is a pillock ...   I'd perhaps describe my mate as that if he went to the bar and forgot my crisps (as he often does) ..  but to use that word to describe a man who has already destroyed the live of millions of innocent people and is only just warming up ...  nah ... not me.

 

 

I figured it was obvious that I was being facetious and rather paraphrasing there. Evidently I was mistaken.

 

Enjoy your day.

[Countryfox]

19 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

 

I figured it was obvious that I was being ..

 

Enjoy your day.

Sorry Mac ...   it's never obvious to me what you are being ..  

 

Enjoy yours too.

 

 

[MPH]

Putin at a recent meeting in Kasakhstan.

 

 

 

 

what is he so worried about? 

[LiberalFox]

In my opinion there's no Russian or Chinese "point of view", both those nations are highly autocratic and don't have a free press. Central government controls the narrative and only a small number of people show dissent. That narrative isn't based on reality. I don't see a resolution that doesn't involve beating Russia on the battlefield, that's why I fully support any military assistance the UK can provide. The sooner the war is won then the sooner the economic disruption can end, the threat of some kind of escalation will end, the loss of life in Ukraine will end and we will get a clearer picture of what the future of global politics will be. 

 

 

[leicsmac]

20 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

In my opinion there's no Russian or Chinese "point of view", both those nations are highly autocratic and don't have a free press. Central government controls the narrative and only a small number of people show dissent. That narrative isn't based on reality. I don't see a resolution that doesn't involve beating Russia on the battlefield, that's why I fully support any military assistance the UK can provide. The sooner the war is won then the sooner the economic disruption can end, the threat of some kind of escalation will end, the loss of life in Ukraine will end and we will get a clearer picture of what the future of global politics will be. 

 

 

This is absolutely true.

 

However, to expand on this, it is also an unfortunate truth that narratives not based on reality when posited by those with some power still can cause problems, and as such need to be considered and addressed accordingly rather than dismissed out of hand.

 

There's a wealth of viewpoints regarding science, ignorance of some parties towards it, and the consequences thereof, that backs this up.

[Countryfox]

23 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

This is absolutely true.

 

However, to expand on this, it is also an unfortunate truth that narratives not based on reality when posited by those with some power still can cause problems, and as such need to be considered and addressed accordingly rather than dismissed out of hand.

 

There's a wealth of viewpoints regarding science, ignorance of some parties towards it, and the consequences thereof, that backs this up.

I'm not just picking on everything you post Mac but I honestly don't understand what you are saying ...   I'm sure it's a very valid point and I am interested so please just clarify for me ...  

[Countryfox]

21 hours ago, MPH said:

Putin at a recent meeting in Kasakhstan.

 

 

 

 

what is he so worried about? 

Maybe he suffers from SBD's ...   

[leicsmac]

22 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

I'm not just picking on everything you post Mac but I honestly don't understand what you are saying ...   I'm sure it's a very valid point and I am interested so please just clarify for me ...  

It's quite alright mate, my own fault for not being clear enough and as communication is my stock-in trade I need to know when I'm not being understood. Allow me to clarify:

 

The Chinese and Russian governments are spouting out bullshit on this matter on all frequencies. It's obvious bullshit, and that's not in question. However...the fact is that there are a great many people, enough people, that buy into that bullshit. Enough to maintain control of their nations, enough to send young men to fight and die for this bullshit "special operation" cause. The last five years in the scientific sector (from when Trump took office, tbh) have also shown just how damaging such bullshit can be when enough people buy into it to affect policy.

 

So...and here's the point, we can't just write it off as "just bullshit" when so many people do buy into it and that causes damage. To combat misinformation with truth, we first have to know and understand what that misinformation is and that means paying attention to it, listing it and saying why it isn't true rather than simply dismissing it out of hand. It would be nice and easy to just fob it off as the lies it so obviously is, but when you have a lot of people buying into those lies, enough to shape policy, then that's not enough.

 

Believe me, having to do that rather than turn the other cheek makes life as a science communicator infinitely harder. But in order to actually get scientific fact, as well as geopoliitcal fact, out there in a way that is accepted by enough people to make a real difference, then it's got to be done.

 

I hope that helps. Let me know if it doesn't.

Edited 1 July 2022 by leicsmac

[LiberalFox]

3 hours ago, leicsmac said:

This is absolutely true.

 

However, to expand on this, it is also an unfortunate truth that narratives not based on reality when posited by those with some power still can cause problems, and as such need to be considered and addressed accordingly rather than dismissed out of hand.

 

There's a wealth of viewpoints regarding science, ignorance of some parties towards it, and the consequences thereof, that backs this up.

Surely though "addressed accordingly" is defeating the Russian army on the battlefield? 

[Parafox]

On 30/06/2022 at 16:40, MPH said:

Putin at a recent meeting in Kasakhstan.

 

 

 

 

what is he so worried about? 

Nice laminate flooring. It's amazing what Roubles will buy you at CarpetWorld. 

[fuchsntf]

Why is this Putin und cronies still living, Why havent we been able to create and Internal putch.

There or no ground for intellectual ,high Fluted debate...

Whether we agree or Disagree with  Nato,G7, UN,EU, USA....

 

Putin from the beginning attacked Civilian targets,murdering fleeing families,children,Hospital personal,by

Directly targetting them from the offset...

These guys have lost any right to Share the Planet with me. most Russians in any city,will have Access to outside internet...even if Western-Media Satellites have

some blackout in Siberia..!!    IT Technic cant be so easily blanked..!!  Or Russians on the street are Real imbecils...They Really have no Basic education...

If so where did all their hackers come from...???

 

Edited 1 July 2022 by fuchsntf

[leicsmac]

7 hours ago, LiberalFox said:

Surely though "addressed accordingly" is defeating the Russian army on the battlefield? 

That's a big part of the answer, certainly. But only a part, unless you want it to all happen again.

 

Defeating an opponent in war without addressing the ideas that got it to that stage in the first place just means that those ideas go underground, fester, and erupt once more at some point in the future. I mean, they may do so anyway, history is pretty clear on that, but at some point as well as kicking the shit out of your opponent you've got to make sure that what they're saying doesn't get traction with anyone else. And that takes time, attention and words, not guns, fists or blades.

[gerblod]

In yesterday's Guardian journal Andriy Zagorodnyuk (former Ukraine defence minister) discusses the status of the Russian state.

He posits that it is no more than a terrorist state or "a state sponsor of terrorism". Its regime has consistently targeted locations which are of no value either militarily or strategically.

However, despite all of the support for Ukraine, Russia has not been formally identified as a terrorist state. Usually this signifies a reluctance to avoid the 'pot calling the kettle black' situation. 

Time the UN and other major global political and social organisations climbed off the fence and unreservedly identified Russia and its government as world pariahs. 

We might be getting 'Ukraine fatigue' but this war is about defeating and democratising one of the waning  number of genuine threats to peace, security and environmental protection. It needs to be pursued until Putin and his autocracy is finally extinguished.

[SpacedX]

2 hours ago, gerblod said:

Its regime has consistently targeted locations which are of no value either militarily or strategically.

And as I argued last week, there is zero justification for this policy, irrespective of political/ideological beliefs, or from the perspective of our two Kremlin apologists/sympathisers on this forum. 

[MPH]

11 hours ago, leicsmac said:

That's a big part of the answer, certainly. But only a part, unless you want it to all happen again.

 

Defeating an opponent in war without addressing the ideas that got it to that stage in the first place just means that those ideas go underground, fester, and erupt once more at some point in the future. I mean, they may do so anyway, history is pretty clear on that, but at some point as well as kicking the shit out of your opponent you've got to make sure that what they're saying doesn't get traction with anyone else. And that takes time, attention and words, not guns, fists or blades.

 

yet at the same time giving in to the demands of a bully/ terrorist or whatever word you want to use will only  send notice to others that repeating the same actions in their neck of the woods will get them the results they want themselves…

Edited 2 July 2022 by MPH

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, MPH said:

 

yet at the same time giving in to the demands of a bully/ terrorist or whatever word you want to use will only  send notice to others that repeating the same actions in their neck of the woods will get them the results they want themselves…

Right, and I don't think I ever suggested otherwise. If that is what is being read, then the reading is mistaken.

 

There's a reason that one of the key tenets in The Art of War is to "know your enemy". That includes what they want, what they're saying, how people are responding to what they're saying, and how best to respond to that, as well as what they do on the battlefield.

[MPH]

19 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Right, and I don't think I ever suggested otherwise. If that is what is being read, then the reading is mistaken.

 

There's a reason that one of the key tenets in The Art of War is to "know your enemy". That includes what they want, what they're saying, how people are responding to what they're saying, and how best to respond to that, as well as what they do on the battlefield.

 

sorry for not explaining myself- I’m just adding that there are many variables and outcomes to consider when exiting a war