Underachieving, overachieving or where we should be?

[Babylon]

3 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

…

 

Quite a few I would say, just feel on current form our squad is poor in comparison and many of their first team fringe players are decent prospects. This is presumably where want to be, hence the new training ground.

"On current form"... so on the last two seasons it was a top 6 squad. Form fluctuates, and injuries have decimated our squad (they've not had European football either). 

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, Babylon said:

"On current form"... so on the last two seasons it was a top 6 squad. Form fluctuates, and injuries have decimated our squad (they've not had European football either). 

Not disputing any of that, I think what I meant was once we had a bit of adversity (injuries) it badly exposes us, but probably not a fair comparison until Arsenal suffer a similar crisis.

[Ric Flair]

3 hours ago, Babylon said:

We achieved top 6 two seasons running and won the FA Cup, and that’s with loads of injuries. So by what basis are say Arsenal a top 6 squad and we are not?

 

Few teams could cope with the injuries we’ve had, I don’t like to use that as an excuse for Rodgers as he needs to accept some of the blame there, but we have had them. If Arsenal or Spurs had lost so many players they wouldn’t be close to where they are. 

Yes and no. We've failed in our goal of strengthening our squad rather than the starting XI, even though by strengething the best eleven you strengthen the squad at the same time. It was widely accepted that our squad ran out of steam for 2 years running so we needed a greater depth to our squad which it was said was why it was job done last summer with the signings we brought in. 

 

However only Daka and Lookman have contributed anything to our team when called upon. Vestergaard and Bertrand have been an absolute disaster replacing reliable stalwarts in Fuchs and Morgan and Soumare has nosedive after what looked to be a promising start.

 

I think our squad overall is not bad, no other club possesses 3 strikers of the quality we have and none of our rivals have full backs as good as ours but couple some weaknesses in our squad with a ridiculous injury issue and we've come undone. Hopefully this will be rectified in the summer, we need a refresh and we need to trust the academy a bit more too.

 

 

[Guest Col city fan]

34 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Yes and no. We've failed in our goal of strengthening our squad rather than the starting XI, even though by strengething the best eleven you strengthen the squad at the same time. It was widely accepted that our squad ran out of steam for 2 years running so we needed a greater depth to our squad which it was said was why it was job done last summer with the signings we brought in. 

 

However only Daka and Lookman have contributed anything to our team when called upon. Vestergaard and Bertrand have been an absolute disaster replacing reliable stalwarts in Fuchs and Morgan and Soumare has nosedive after what looked to be a promising start.

 

I think our squad overall is not bad, no other club possesses 3 strikers of the quality we have and none of our rivals have full backs as good as ours but couple some weaknesses in our squad with a ridiculous injury issue and we've come undone. Hopefully this will be rectified in the summer, we need a refresh and we need to trust the academy a bit more too.

 

 

Exactly as I see it

[J. James]

To be described as brilliant or any other superlative a manager must achieve certain goals - astute signings, bringing in young players, building/keeping a happy squad, luck  and most importantly getting the best out of each player within the team.
Players need to recognise and accept their role within the team, perform to an acceptable level for a high percentage of the time and occasionally excel, train hard and live right.
success does not come without these and other qualities and even then it is far from guaranteed.
To judge the performance of our team we need to look at the performances of both the players and the manager, this is difficult because one affects the other.
 lf you are in the camp which believes that we have an outstanding group of players then clearly our manager is failing to get the best out of them and we as a club are underachieving where it counts (for us spectators) - on the pitch.
lf on the other hand you believe we have a top/ brilliant/ outstanding manager then clearly our players are not as good as they are  made out to be, otherwise we would be in the top 6 and we are nowhere near that standard ATM.
Either way using 2015/16 as the pinnacle of achievement we are not just below this mark (we cannot hope to be winning the league constantly) but way below it.
I firmly believe that the present team is overall a more talented group of individuals but a far inferior team to 2015 and as its a team sport this has to mean that we have not progressed since then.
whether it is the manager,the players, bad luck, poor recruitment or any other factor is irrelevant,  the question asked is have we met expectations this season?
For me the answer is a firm NO.

[Foxaholic ME]

23 hours ago, Col city fan said:

I don’t give a monkeys toss if it’s en-vogue or not. This place is like a playground a lot of the time and I ain’t got time for bullies. I post what I think is right.

Our second string must get better or we’ll not achieve much going forward. Definitely agree with the first team being good enough though.

I think if we’d have had a good defence this season, we’d have ended up about 6th or 7th

With our first choice defence we would have been a good shout for top 4  we cannot  play 7 or 8 reserves and win  just look at the forest result

[Les-TA-Jon]

5 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Yes and no. We've failed in our goal of strengthening our squad rather than the starting XI, even though by strengething the best eleven you strengthen the squad at the same time. It was widely accepted that our squad ran out of steam for 2 years running so we needed a greater depth to our squad which it was said was why it was job done last summer with the signings we brought in. 

 

However only Daka and Lookman have contributed anything to our team when called upon. Vestergaard and Bertrand have been an absolute disaster replacing reliable stalwarts in Fuchs and Morgan and Soumare has nosedive after what looked to be a promising start.

 

I think our squad overall is not bad, no other club possesses 3 strikers of the quality we have and none of our rivals have full backs as good as ours but couple some weaknesses in our squad with a ridiculous injury issue and we've come undone. Hopefully this will be rectified in the summer, we need a refresh and we need to trust the academy a bit more too.

Firmino, Salah, Mane, Jota? 

 

It remains to be seen if Vardy will ever be back in the goals. Daka the unfinished and unknown quality at the moment. Nacho our best striker but wildly inconsistent, we struggle to find a system that suits him and BR doesn't favour him? 

[Guest Col city fan]

3 hours ago, Foxaholic ME said:

With our first choice defence we would have been a good shout for top 4  we cannot  play 7 or 8 reserves and win  just look at the forest result

I agree but my contention is that we can’t play many of THESE reserves and expect good outcomes. 
Our first team is a good, competitive side with talented players… although you could argue many of them are underperforming. 
Looking at the reserve CB’s…

I think Soyuncu is good enough IF he plays alongside a better CB with a steady head.

Amartey.. I think is a championship level defender, same with Vestergaard

Reserve full backs… I think Thomas is weak. Bertrand awful. James Justin is fine going forward

Looking at the reserve CM’s… Soumare hasn’t pulled up any trees. He looks heavy and cumbersome. 
Mendy.. for some reason wasn’t even IN the squad for a long time? Most on here earlier in the season would have happily shown him the door.

Perez… much maligned by the FT faithful. Not as bad as many make out.

Reserve strikers… Iheanacho.. I think is probably an able deputy for Vardy.

Daka… looks devoid of any confidence and again, if we are being honest, doesn’t yet look as good as I (for one), thought he would.

I stand by my original assertion that our reserves really aren’t all that. I think we have a pretty weak ‘squad’ at present.
Going forward, we either need a better first team, such that some of the normal first teamers become ‘reserve’ players. Or, we need to recruit better squad players to be able to deputise at a decent level

This is why the season has been poor. When Vardy has been injured, neither Nacho nor Daka have been anywhere near prolific. When Maddison has been injured, Perez hasn’t produced the goods. And as for the defence. When Fofana and Evans aren’t in… the reality is we’ve conceded for fun

For me this is absolutely crystal clear. And the biggest loss has been Fofana. Any side builds from a steady defence. We’ve not had that for most of the season.

Edit… I forgot to add Lookman in there. He’s been a very able ‘deputy’ and a good squad player. The type of player who you can use rotationally with Barnes and know that you won’t be losing much in terms of overall contribution. It also shows that you CAN recruit a better standard of ‘squad player’. 

Edited 3 May 2022 by Col city fan

[Les-TA-Jon]

I still don't understand why the sentiment of "This squad was good enough to finish top 4 the last two seasons" is so prevalent. Or rather, why a lot of people seem to think that finishing in the Top 4 is some easy, and common thing? 

 

We know there are 6 clubs that have and do spend more money than us. We know there are 6 clubs that have much bigger fanbases, commercial pull, pedigree and history. 

 

Breaking into the top 6 and especially the top 4 is very rare in the modern era of football. 

 

Looking at the previous 33 seasons (back to 88/89) gives us 198 Top 6 places, and 132 Top 4 places

 

The rate at which those places are taken by a 'Big 6 Club' (Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City, Man Utd or Tottenham) is staggering

• Of those 198 Top 6 places, they got 140 - that's 71%
• Of those 132 Top 4 places, they got 108 - that's 82%

Even if we reduce the sample to 'only' the last 20 years it becomes even more of a closed shop

• That's 97 out of 120 Top 6 places - or 81%
• That's 76 out of 80 Top 4 places - 95%

Heck, us winning the title is the ONLY time a non-Big 6 Club has finished in the top 4 in the last 16 years!

Edited 3 May 2022 by Les-TA-Jon

[Ric Flair]

4 hours ago, Les-TA-Jon said:

Firmino, Salah, Mane, Jota? 

 

It remains to be seen if Vardy will ever be back in the goals. Daka the unfinished and unknown quality at the moment. Nacho our best striker but wildly inconsistent, we struggle to find a system that suits him and BR doesn't favour him? 

Liverpool are evidently unreal but I don't class them as strikers. No other team has 3 strikers of our quality but that doesn't necessarily put us at an advantage over our rivals if they have a system that compliments what they do have better. 

 

 

[Lewis's Junior]

Because we (nearly) finished 4th twice, some are using that as a yardstick and judging the team's performance vs that. To be clear - this squad and / or 1st team would be overachieving finishing in the top 4. 

 

To finish between 8th and 14th with our current squad is underachieving. Surely a squad that has improved after finishing 5th twice should reasonably expect to finish between 5th and 7th as par?

The teams around us regularly go through shite runs, including those in 5th-7th place above us! And we have failed to take advantage. And that's forgetting the cup debacles this season where we bottled it.

 

Yes there's been injuries that weakened us. But taking just our set pieces in both boxes as an example, if we were better there you are looking at least a 10 point swing in our favour; we'd be 7th, knocking on 6th places door. Surely the 4th best paid manager in the league can fix that! Just Google 'Rodgers set piece Leicester' and there are articles going back a year a more pointing out the problem. Yet here we are....

[Collymore]

2 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Liverpool are evidently unreal but I don't class them as strikers. No other team has 3 strikers of our quality but that doesn't necessarily put us at an advantage over our rivals if they have a system that compliments what they do have better. 

 

 

You thinking an old school 4-3-3?

 

I often dream about a Daka, Nacho and Vardy strike force with the creativity of Youri and Madders with the safety net of Ndid /AKA Mendy,

 

 

Edited 3 May 2022 by Collymore

[Free Falling Foxes]

If we should lose on Thursday, I do hope the players remain motivated for the rest of this premier league season.

Not only does form often carry over to the following season, we should target over taking Wolves. We have been the top Midlands side for a while now, let's keep it up.

I know that is more of a fans perspective, but hope the team adopt it too.

[sacreblueits442]

30 minutes ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

If we should lose on Thursday, I do hope the players remain motivated for the rest of this premier league season.

Not only does form often carry over to the following season, we should target over taking Wolves. We have been the top Midlands side for a while now, let's keep it up.

I know that is more of a fans perspective, but hope the team adopt it too.

....form does not always follow on to the next season!!!

We blew up finishing of the Covid season and finished 5th, with an appalling run.  We started the next season back to our best, we blew up again in the second half of last season with another appalling run, but failed to stop the slide at the start of this season. We have drifted through this season and hoping for a reset at the start of next season.

[Babylon]

20 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Yes and no. We've failed in our goal of strengthening our squad rather than the starting XI, even though by strengething the best eleven you strengthen the squad at the same time. It was widely accepted that our squad ran out of steam for 2 years running so we needed a greater depth to our squad which it was said was why it was job done last summer with the signings we brought in. 

 

However only Daka and Lookman have contributed anything to our team when called upon. Vestergaard and Bertrand have been an absolute disaster replacing reliable stalwarts in Fuchs and Morgan and Soumare has nosedive after what looked to be a promising start.

 

I think our squad overall is not bad, no other club possesses 3 strikers of the quality we have and none of our rivals have full backs as good as ours but couple some weaknesses in our squad with a ridiculous injury issue and we've come undone. Hopefully this will be rectified in the summer, we need a refresh and we need to trust the academy a bit more too.

 

 

Was the discussion top six squad or not? We achieved that despite injuries. 

[Matt]

For all our overachievements we've now massively underachieved.