Underachieving, overachieving or where we should be?

[weller54]

45 minutes ago, Collymore said:

...That's the whole point of this forum though!

 

I find this type of post odd (seeing a lot of it recently) where if someone dares to have an opinion that questions Rodgers, people jump on them and basically tell them stop supporting the club.

 

What's that about?

Totally agree.

Stupid comment to make. Of course I want to watch my beloved football team!!!  But I'm entitled to criticise the manager and the way he has them playing!

[Kinowe Soorie]

1 minute ago, whoareyaaa said:

2. Think we're about where we should be but not happy about the lack of excitement in the football at the moment. 

 

(due to injuries and individual errors we are where we should be this season however the football is drab, boring predictable far to often and this comes from the management.

 

Tricky situation as the signings brought in by the current management haven't really been great either and fallen out with players Preat, Soumare etc can't be good for the clubs future.

 

Tough call to make. 

According to quite a few members on here, the signings have been a great success. I beg to differ.

Brendan and his cronies, have wasted millions in transfer fees and ludicrous contracts. 
Serious questions need to be asked about Brendan’s recruitment.

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

You think we'll get a manager that'll finish 5th twice and win the cup? It's possible, but I don't like the  odds. 

 

People blame Brendan for us failing to make the champions league twice but ignore the fact that it was him who had us in the top 3 for most of those seasons. If we'd have been 6th to 8th all that time they'd have been happy. 

 

As everyone's favourite manager used to say, some people have delusions of grandeur. 

Very few are willing to acknowledge the improvement he’s made. This past season is the building of Rodgers own legacy rather than him taking someone else’s squad or team and putting them on the downturn 

[CosbehFox]

Just now, Kinowe Soorie said:

According to quite a few members on here, the signings have been a great success. I beg to differ.

Brendan and his cronies, have wasted millions in transfer fees and ludicrous contracts. 
Serious questions need to be asked about Brendan’s recruitment.

If you can find those quotes, I’d be interested because I don’t think anyone will say last summer good signings were made. 

[Corky]

10 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

Underachieving. As a club we aren't but as a squad we are.

Spot on. I think too many neutrals focus on what the club is like compared to the squad, manager, resources available at the current time. This squad (and manager) must surely believe they are better than this.

[An Sionnach]

Without the threat of Vardy we are a mid table squad. Spurs without the threat of Son and Kane are a mid table squad. We, like them, have become very reliant on our elite class players. We cannot replace him so we are at a crossroads.To strengthen the team to compensate for life without him will cost a great deal of money.

[Leicester_Loyal]

1 hour ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Btw, we get rid of Rodgers and his coaching staff….we probably half our transfer budget in the process and need to sell an additional player. 

And that's it for me, reckon we'll just stick with him for another season at least now. The only way that changes is if we get dangerously close to relegation, but next season, if we have no Europe our players combined with Rodgers who is decent should ensure that doesn't happen.

 

I only worry about our signings and our injuries, both this season haven't been up to the standard this football club should expect.

[StriderHiryu]

2 hours ago, Happy Fox said:

Rodgers is putting all his eggs in the Europa Conference basket, if our league form was slightly better 7th could have been easily achievable.
 

I cannot imagine Top, Rudkin and Whelan will be too impressed if we crash out on Thursday. We are I feel at a cross roads, should we rebuild under Rodgers or get in a new manager and let him work with the players that Rodgers wants to boot out?

Well luckily the club is well run so even if Rodgers brings in players in the summer but then gets given the boot there will be plenty for a new man to work with. The club will appoint someone with an attacking possession based philosophy so the squad will support that to some level. Someone like Potter, the Rennes manager or someone from the Bundesliga would probably be brought in. Would they do better? That remains to be seen. 
 

I like Rodgers but suspect the 5th placed finishes and FA Cup win are as good as it will get. Which TBH is pretty good! Arsenal and Spurs have spent their way out of trouble and now Newcastle have oil money. Realistically a 7th placed finish next season would be good going. 
 

I love the way our club tries to do things the “right” way. But realistically unless we can match or beat the spending teams above us do we can’t expect to consistently out place them. 
 

I actually think the biggest frustrations among our fanbase isn’t our league position but rather the many capitulations and slow paced football. Whilst I understand the need to pass the ball sideways at times, watching game after game of our CBs making the most passes to one another but still losing is awful. 

[Raj]

1 hour ago, An Sionnach said:

Without the threat of Vardy we are a mid table squad. Spurs without the threat of Son and Kane are a mid table squad. We, like them, have become very reliant on our elite class players. We cannot replace him so we are at a crossroads.To strengthen the team to compensate for life without him will cost a great deal of money.

Only thing is Son n Kane have years left and are in their prime.

Vards is s shadow of his prime and its proven without him we have no one else who purs fear into an opposition.

 

If we didnt have the distraction of the euro conference where in the league would be?

Probably not that much higher.

We have a terrible  injury list and inconsistent team, especially  at the back.

We are where we are.

[Arriba Los Zorros]

Underachieving with these players. 

 

I get that Brendan has his positives, and he has certainly improved our players technically, but we are the softest team in the league, physically and mentally (maybe bar Southampton) and one of the easiest to play against due to our slow, slow, laboured style of play. 

 

Next season can't we just be more bloody direct when required and I don't know, consider getting a big lump up front? Just so we can win games when we run up against a brick wall? And keep other teams guessing.

 

Must be so easy to plan a match for Leicester. Keep your shape lads, stay tight to Tielemans, don't let Barnes cut in on his right, don't push up too high and then wait for them to give the ball away so we can counter. And if that fails we'll score from a corner. 

[Guest Col city fan]

2 hours ago, UniFox21 said:

One thing to definitely consider is the injury to Wes. Entire season structure set up around him being at the back, turned sour in the final friendly and all the work out the window. Not an excuse, as at times we have been absolutely awful

 

@Unabomber is wrong here anyway

We don’t have a great squad at all … surely everyone can see that’s been the problem all season?

We’ve had to play the second string far too often.. and seen they aren’t up to it

I think we now have a very very average squad at best 

[Pliskin]

10 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

@Unabomber is wrong here anyway

We don’t have a great squad at all … surely everyone can see that’s been the problem all season?

We’ve had to play the second string far too often.. and seen they aren’t up to it

I think we now have a very very average squad at best 

After Liverpool and Man City, who doesn’t have an average squad when rotated? 

[FLINTHAMFC]

3 hours ago, Collymore said:

...That's the whole point of this forum though!

 

I find this type of post odd (seeing a lot of it recently) where if someone dares to have an opinion that questions Rodgers, people jump on them and basically tell them stop supporting the club.

 

What's that about?

I defend everyone's right to an opinion, not just those that share my own.

 

 

[adejo92]

It's easy to think negatively and instantly think we are underachieving. You break the league table down in terms of player quality, resources and general infrastructure and we are only a bit behind where we should perhaps be. We are a long way from competing with the first 6 teams on a season by season basis.

 

It leaves us with the middle section of teams who i personally feel were are most realistically comparable with. I would be tempted to put Everton in that category too if you take away this season which has been pretty catastrophic for them.

 

I think sometimes it's easy to get carried away with the recent success. We go on about how good a squad we have got but again, man for man, how many of our players would break in to the squad of any of them top 6 teams? Fofana, Justin, KDH, Maddison, Tielemans are the only ones who i think could or would break in to them squads. Too many of our players are bottom half prem / championship level - Soyunchu, Thomas, Barnes, Nacho, Mendy, Soumare, Daka etc etc.

 

 

Manchester City

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Leicester City

Crystal Palace

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Newcastle

Everton

Brighton

Brentford

Southampton

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[Ric Flair]

6 hours ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

I might be absolutely mad but I'm genuinely optimistic about the summer.

 

The club have clearly identified the lingering issues of the last 3 years - an inability to dominate physically, legs in midfield and only one winger who contributes with goals and assists (you can add lookman to that).

 

We need physicality in the middle, we line up every week and the opposition is more physical. Bar Fofana we dont have anyone thats imposing in the air. Bar KDH we have very little running power. Bar Maddison we don't have a player that will go past players. Justin, Fofana and Ricardo look fit again. Daka shows signs for me he could be a top striker.

 

David Carmo, Orkun Kockku, Noni Madueke. Top 6 charge is on.

 

Edit - if anyone finds a creative physical box to box midfield let's sign him instead of Kokcu.

Kokcu is immense, he should be our 1st choice Tielemans replacement. I know he's a whipper snapper but Xavi Simons will be leaving PSG on a free this summer, his underlying stats are wild.

[The Horse's Mouth]

I'm another group, we're underachieving but I believe Rodgers deserves another season. I think he's got enough credit in the bank for me to blindly back him into next year and tbh I do want a bit of long termism, sure we probably could get instance success again but I like a stable long term manager. At the same time the current results I don't care about honestly, league was finished pretty early doors and it's a big shame as with how pitiful united have been, arsenal despite the PR aren't as good as made out and spurs are probably the weakest they've been in a long time.

[The Horse's Mouth]

Love the fact, it doesn't matter the year, the situation col will always be on here having a moan 

[Nod.E]

3 hours ago, An Sionnach said:

Without the threat of Vardy we are a mid table squad. Spurs without the threat of Son and Kane are a mid table squad. We, like them, have become very reliant on our elite class players. We cannot replace him so we are at a crossroads.To strengthen the team to compensate for life without him will cost a great deal of money.

This is, unfortunately, probably on the money. 

 

Vardy is one of the best strikers in the history of the Premier League. He's 14th in the all time scoring list and likely to break into the top 10 by the time he's done. And that from somebody who didn't make his first appearance in the league until the age of 27.

 

How on earth do we even begin to replace that. He's not only one of the best strikers we have ever seen at the club, he's one of the best the league has seen.

 

While I do think we are underachieving, it's a very strong argument to be made that one of the main reasons we've done so well in recent years is the presence of Vardy, and so we can't expect to keep achieving that. 

 

By the same token, how much of our success is down to Rodgers when we've benefitted from a player of Vardy's ability. 

 

We are a very difficult entity to contextualise and that's why there are such varied opinions. It's a shame people are so strong in their held opinions. The world would be a better place if more people were prepared to admit they don't have all the answers.

Edited 2 May 2022 by Nod.E
Grammar

[messerschmitt]

1 hour ago, StriderHiryu said:

Well luckily the club is well run so even if Rodgers brings in players in the summer but then gets given the boot there will be plenty for a new man to work with. The club will appoint someone with an attacking possession based philosophy so the squad will support that to some level. Someone like Potter, the Rennes manager or someone from the Bundesliga would probably be brought in. Would they do better? That remains to be seen. 
 

I like Rodgers but suspect the 5th placed finishes and FA Cup win are as good as it will get. Which TBH is pretty good! Arsenal and Spurs have spent their way out of trouble and now Newcastle have oil money. Realistically a 7th placed finish next season would be good going. 
 

I love the way our club tries to do things the “right” way. But realistically unless we can match or beat the spending teams above us do we can’t expect to consistently out place them. 
 

I actually think the biggest frustrations among our fanbase isn’t our league position but rather the many capitulations and slow paced football. Whilst I understand the need to pass the ball sideways at times, watching game after game of our CBs making the most passes to one another but still losing is awful. 

I love the passing game but I am genuinely perplexed as to why we do it so slowly. Sometime the ball almost stops before it get to the recipient and why do some players take 2 or 3 unneeded touches. We all play one touch in training, the ball moves faster. I've noticed some players have already decided to pas the ball sideways or back without even looking for a forward pass. I noticed against Spurs Perez was in a gap but sometimes Mendy didn't even look up and passed it back.I'm not singling him out because it happens a lot with others

It can't be confidence because I can't believe a professional player can't pass it quicker or that he needs to take a couple of touches. The idea to move the opposition around to make triangles is a good one but the speed we do it gives teams too much time to reset. in fact they can reset at walking pace.

You only win a game by scoring more goals than the opposition. Sideways and backwards should be to retain possession if nothings on.

[HighPeakFox]

13 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

This is, unfortunately, probably on the money. 

 

Vardy is one of the best strikers in the history of the Premier League. He's 14th in the all time scoring list and likely to break into the top 10 by the time he's done. And that from somebody who didn't make his first appearance in the league until the age of 27.

 

How on earth do we even begin to replace that. He's not only one of the best strikers we have ever seen at the club, he's one of the best the league has seen.

 

While I do think we are underachieving, it's a very strong argument to be made that one of the main reasons we've done so well in recent years is the presence of Vardy, and so we can't expect to keep achieving that. 

 

By the same token, how much of our success is down to Rodgers when we've benefitted from a player of Vardy's ability. 

 

We are a very difficult entity to contextualise and that's why there are such varied opinions. It's a shame people are so strong in their held opinions. The world would be a better place if more people were prepared to admit they don't have all the answers.

I definitely don't have all the answers - in some case, I don't have any at all. I'm not sure this thread is helpful, but I of course defend its right to exist.

[Finnegan]

My problem with the under vs over achieving conversation is that it gets over simplified and the credit poorly attributed. Particularly depending on why and how we're apparently over or under achieving. 

 

If you're using our spend as the baseline, you're talking about achievement vs budget and nothing else. If you're talking about the quality of the playing staff then you need to ignore its cash value because money =/= quality. Jamie Vardy is a world class talent that cost us a million pounds years ago, Islam Slimami cost thirty times this and was objectively disappointing. 

 

Achievement vs budget is a fairly easy, objective metric. You can make a league table of spend quite easily and compare performance to it. Without checking, I'm guessing off hand we definitely over achieved in 15/16, 19/20 and 20/21. The thing is, credit for that doesn't necessarily sit with the manager of the team, it sits with the club as a collective institution. Vichai, Rudkin, Top, Whelan, Macia, Walsh, Congerton and all the managers we've had for the last decade or so have all contributed in building the squad we have now for the outlay we paid. If we're over achieving based on our expenditure then everyone gets a pat on the back and Rodgers should probably be a little less hasty to seem self congratulatory about that. 

 

The real measure of a manager isn't whether the club is doing well vs budget, it's not his money, it's whether he's doing well vs the quality of his squad vs others in the league. This is harder, more subjective and open to opinion. None of us can say we didn't over achieve in 15/16. The quality of the squad was hugely under rated by the press and we now fully appreciate that Vardy, Kante and Mahrez - at very least - are genuinely world class footballers. But even with that in mind, we couldn't really have claimed to have the best squad in the league that year on paper. 

 

But in 19/20? I honestly think we probably started that season with the third best starting 11 and one of the best squads in the league outside Liverpool and Man City. I honestly think we were third on merit and the collapse was extremely disappointing. I'd have a hard time calling 5th an over achievement and, frankly, I think calling it par is generous. 

 

20/21 is a bit different, Chelsea had reinforced, Bruno Fernandes clearly had a massive impact on United, Tuchel coming in was huge, I feel a lot better about our 5th place finish last year frankly and the cup win was great. Still, would you call any of it over achieving? I'd say 5th was, again, about right for the quality of the team we put out most weeks and an FA Cup win for a team, recent champions, competing two years running for top 4? Sounds about right on balance. 

 

Honestly I think Rodgers has delivered about what was expected those two years and I'm not sure he's got much grounds to suggest the squad itself over achieved. The club did, the team didn't. 

 

That's my view. 

 

Edited 2 May 2022 by Finnegan

[HighPeakFox]

One other thought - this conversation is only possible if we try to objectively decide if other teams' squads are under/over achieving too. If we don't do that, then we're at risk of being incredibly one-eyed about the whole conversation.

[murphy]

I think that we'd be hard pressed to find a Leicester fan that doesn't think that we've under-performed this year, but we are an unforgiving bunch.  We have been in the throes of an injury crisis, week in, week out for nearly two years.  And there's still time.  We might yet qualify for Europe and win a major trophy to boot.  Yes, it is a major trophy and I will step outside with anyone who says otherwise!

 

I think that the previous two seasons we have over-performed.  We really have no right to be challenging top four which makes it all the more galling to snatch defeat from the jaws of Champion's League glory by the skin of our teeth twice running.   These opportunities won't come around very often.  If only we could have over-achieved just a fraction more! 

 

Watching West Ham fade away somewhat has given me some comfort this year.  Firstly because I particularly dislike West Ham and I would hate to see them succeed where we failed, but also because it shows that it may just be beyond the likes of clubs like ours to keep that consistency going for a full season (miracles aside).  You need the squad strength in depth of the big six

 

I haven't even mentioned the FA Cup which was like all my birthdays come at once but strangely brushed aside by some.  Huge achievement and cements Rodgers' (and Youri's) status as a legend whatever may come next.

 

I'd say that a par season for us with this squad is within the group chasing 'best of the rest'  status which I think is 6th to 9th.  A word of caution though, that chasing pack is growing and the competition is getting more fierce which has not been helped by us standing still with a less than stellar summer in the transfer market.

 

 

Edited 2 May 2022 by murphy

[Unabomber]

2 hours ago, Col city fan said:

@Unabomber is wrong here anyway

We don’t have a great squad at all … surely everyone can see that’s been the problem all season?

We’ve had to play the second string far too often.. and seen they aren’t up to it

I think we now have a very very average squad at best 

Cheers 

[Dahnsouff]

Realise that  it is not on-vogue to agree with @Col city fan but I would agree that the squad is not top 6 quality, not even close. This first XI is, just about, but the squad is top 12 I would guess. As we cannot fill the financial gap to some in his league we have gone for a longer term approach of youth development, something we should be pleased about imho.