Underachieving, overachieving or where we should be?

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

1 hour ago, Collymore said:

I've noticed a lot of confrontation and differing views on the forum recently so I thought I'd start a topic where we could have some debate and try and get to the bottom of things. 

 

Seems to me there's three groups. 

 

1. Think we're overachieving and lucky to have Rodgers.

 

2. Think we're about where we should be but not happy about the lack of excitement in the football at the moment. 

 

3. Think we're underachieving and we need a complete change of management. 

 

I think when group 1 and 3 are in the same thread we're getting a lot of confrontation. 

 

I've been on this forum since 2004 and usually there is pretty much broad agreement on the overall picture, apart from the optimistic and pessimistic personalities that are always likely to disagree. 

 

I don't think I can remember having so many differing views and people planting themselves so broadly across the Leicester City view spectrum. 

 

Is it after 2016 we just have no real idea of what we should be as a club now? Is cementing ourselves as Europa League hopefuls for the next 5 years what we might have expected or have we underachieved? 

 

Is Rodgers doing a good steady job or could someone else come in and really kick on? 

 

I think these answers aren't clear and it's hard to find another club with our story to compare. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Doesn't 18/19 include about 12 games with Rodgers who got us accumulating 2 points a game?

[dmayne7]

1 hour ago, Collymore said:

I've noticed a lot of confrontation and differing views on the forum recently so I thought I'd start a topic where we could have some debate and try and get to the bottom of things. 

 

Seems to me there's three groups. 

 

1. Think we're overachieving and lucky to have Rodgers.

 

2. Think we're about where we should be but not happy about the lack of excitement in the football at the moment. 

 

3. Think we're underachieving and we need a complete change of management. 

 

I think when group 1 and 3 are in the same thread we're getting a lot of confrontation. 

 

I've been on this forum since 2004 and usually there is pretty much broad agreement on the overall picture, apart from the optimistic and pessimistic personalities that are always likely to disagree. 

 

I don't think I can remember having so many differing views and people planting themselves so broadly across the Leicester City view spectrum. 

 

Is it after 2016 we just have no real idea of what we should be as a club now? Is cementing ourselves as Europa League hopefuls for the next 5 years what we might have expected or have we underachieved? 

 

Is Rodgers doing a good steady job or could someone else come in and really kick on? 

 

I think these answers aren't clear and it's hard to find another club with our story to compare. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't think your categories are right. Said on the Rodgers post that only a moron would suggest he's a bad manager who's hasn't done a good job. But then anyone who puts themselves in your first category is talking nonsense as well.

 

Think 90% of fans are probably somewhere in 2 and 3, with that ranging from those who still think he can turn it around and has earned more time although still appreciating it's not been good enough this season to those who think he's been a success here but the project has run its course and have little faith he's the man to lead us for next few years given the repeated failings and rigidity in ideals.

 

I'd put myself in the latter of the above but even though those in the other side of that range have an opinion that's drastically different to mine, I still respect it. But anyone who puts themselves in your category 1 can't be taken seriously. 

 

I think almost everyone with any sense will agree that we're playing poorly and that we haven't been anywhere near good enough this season, so it's not really a question of if we're over or underachieving (though we have a very good team, even allowing for injuries that means only 11 league wins all season, pathetic defence of the FA Cup and going out at the group stage of the EL when we were rightfully favourites is definitely underachieving), it's much more about the fact that there are repeated issues that don't seem to be addressed, questions around the recruitment/potential rebuild and the fact that performances have been very poor meaning a league position that flatters (even though we have suffered with plenty of poor officiating decisions not going for us). All that leaves us in a position where there's concern about how we move forward us a club and whether we're starting the decline back to the yo-yo club we've historically been.

 

The question is do you back Rodgers and his team to go again and deliver more success or have the performances of the past 18 months shown us that it's too far gone?

[fox_up_north]

Somewhere between 2 and 3. Unless you're mega rich or a Bayern/ PSG, you'll get peaks and troughs. This season, I am willing to accept the mitigating circumstances and appreciate there are still things to be enjoyed. We're certainly not an Everton or Man United level of underachieving.

 

However, I would expect to see an improvement next season and aim for top 8. I'd also want to see a concerted effort to change our play, as it's clear the possession without purpose isn't working. 

[Gamble92]

I think the annoyance from a fans perspective is knowing Rodgers is quite clearly working his own PR at times rather than holding his hands up. 

 

Yes, we have been "unlucky" with injuries but there's been times he'd have earned a lot more respect from the fans if he said we aren't at the level we should be. He doesn't do that, he points to every other factor and it seems to work on pundits. Us less so.

 

It doesn't help that pundits have this opinion we should just be grateful to have Rodgers and a good side. There's no doubt we should have finished top 4 twice and that would have given him a free pass this season to have a poor year. The fact we missed out means he's been under a lot of pressure. Without the cup win he would look like an absolute bottler right now.

[purpleronnie]

The quality of league is all a bit meh apart from the obvious 2, so its a little disappointing that we 'could' finish as low as 15th.  Were 11th with a couple of games in hand and we could finish as high as 8th.

 

I predicted 8th at the start of the season, it's unlikely we'll finish as high as that....so for me we're underachieving.

[cropstonfox]

24 minutes ago, foxinsocks said:

You are right....

Yet... do you think bredans vision of football is right for us?  I dont expect to achieve much more... but i wanted to beat newcastke, Everton,  villa... and playing this way we couldn't. 

Agree that with a better manager we could

Trouble the top 5 again and win the games

Typical of above.

Brendon has done nothing to make us better than where we would expect to be or on the other hand has not messed it up so we are below expectation.

[Foxdiamond]

Not sure what category to choose. The injuries really were a handicap but the losses or draws from winning positions have been far too common. We showed grit in the Rennes and PSV matches but lack of this and guile in too many league matches.

[Sly]

We’ve under achieved. 
 

However our B side would most likely be top end in most European leagues outside the obvious big 5.
 

Other teams have had injuries. We saw it with Liverpool last season and they’ve turned it around. 

 

Rodgers gets next season, however the football has become dull as dishwater after times, so that needs to improve, as well as the results. 
 

The signs are evident for us all though, that once Vardy, Tielemans, Fofana and Kasper go, we’ll most likely be mid table fodder for a while. 

[KrefelderFox666]

PL - we have failed. We'll struggle to break the 50 point marker which is poor. Yes, injuries but even so, such a soft team, easy to beat.

 

EL - failed as we should have qualified from the group.

 

FA Cup - major fail as cupholders.

 

Carabao Cup - OK but threw away a semi final spot.

 

ECL - good run but only in it due to EL failings. Winning this competition would sugar coat a poor season (but I would obvs take it).

 

Summary, definitely underachieved based on the quality of the squad and the competition.

[Collymore]

37 minutes ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

Doesn't 18/19 include about 12 games with Rodgers who got us accumulating 2 points a game?

...so you're in zone 1! 

 

Fair play like, just interested to hear why. 

[fuchsntf]

Overachieving, underachieving...Two far over used words.

We are where we are, Yes we have Good players, a very decent squad, when  fit, but even with one of our best group

 Of individuals in modern times, no cohesion as a "team" to Challenge  as a consistent Top 5 club, Clinical discipline & pure quality for a Top 10 club,with no Real Threat of relegation,so our Strongest era Maybe ever...but not those 2 noches higher to Trouble Top 3-5 , Challenge yes, But not strong in squad Quality to finish a season,when Basic injuries come along.. 

Not one Team or squad would have had that strength, to Ride our Chronic injuries, from 4-20 ( M.city,L'pool,Chelsea maybe) PL teams,These last 12-14 months...

Star Returns for a few games, still carrying, or Losing Battles to rekindle known potential form.

 

History through the PL & Championship Shows us  average to Top players more so than not ,take anything from 5-10 months at least to refind form & Top mojo...

Plus PL players  we never get to know how recovered,& what "still" missing needs are lacking from returnees,

other than the obvious secondary knocks...

7 rolling injuries, occasional 5 Short Returns Dont get it done,

Plus any manager would be Left in nomans Land trying to Build up squad spirit, character, & most importantly that needed rythme.

This doesn't mean Rodgers hasnt made mistakes,or players have excuses,

when regularly lacking game discipline or making those basic Control & passing mistakes...

 

A massive but...this forum ( Even if is still only a larger minority) as also changed....more cynical,more entitled,including IMO

OTT shoulds & expectancy, over-riding honest Hope & aspirations...

 

Until now, we have made ourselves  a respectable  challenger that contest for those high covetted PL placings..

Arsenal, Spurs slipped over 2 seasons, but have turned their fortunes around..

We are new to this game,owners & fans, & even with those better Quality players,Non have reached consistent hights on a regular basis.

We havent yet done/earnt enough Credit to be considered a major threat to the Top 5. Consistency ,qualification, competing for trophies,hands One that recogntion, including respect to needs and more so the opposition, whether they are lower or higher postioned..

Football forums have been quite blind to this part of their input.

Pearson Kicked this era  in & no real fault of his own, lost und Let the reins slip..

Ranieri,came, saw & conquered,But wasnt strong or clever enough to first hold ,then develope.

Shakespeare..couldnt make that Jump from top coach to aspiring manager

Puel, did the Dirty work, & IMO started taking us forward again,But didnt have the nous to " Grab the team"

Brendan recreated, & Rekindled those Ambitions & translated that into success.

Future Aspirations became touchable,potential he built on..

Covid, Falling & failing finances Held back on field investment,

But owners had a Vision of creating a practical/pragmatic future legacy...Seagrave.

 

Seagrave we wont see have immediate effect, if  organised and credably used,

it will start to deliver Dividends, lets say First maybe 3-6 years..

Motivation and Resource-belief/trust being the present benefits..

Like it or not Brendan has some leaway & time.

I Dont believe by half the owners are thinking of any immediate replacement or even why they shouldnt

trust him well into next season...

There are things his tenure will have to get hold of. 

Like any manager he will want to prove he can evolve  learn, while Keeping to his ideology.

Europe or no Europe he will be given the summer, IMO rightly.

 

 

 

Edited 1 May 2022 by fuchsntf

[Collymore]

44 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Get a good feeling back amongst the supporters

This is so important isn't it and probably the biggest sticking point that seems almost impossible to solve. 

[Dames]

I feel like over the past 3 years we’ve underachieved. Out of context two 5th places and an FA cup win are excellent and no doubt they are things we would have all taken and been extremely grateful for when Rodgers first joined.

 

However those 5th places were overshadowed by surrendering even better positions without much of a fight. The FA cup win is of course undisputed and the community shield a nice touch none of which can be slated at all. But when you look at our record in other cup competitions we’ve fallen short, especially given some of the favourable draws we’ve had (Villa, Slavia, Forest and this years Europa Group stage) or other teams fielding weakened sides (Liverpool this season).

 

It just feels like there was a real chance to do even better but those chances have been squandered. 
 

I dont expect us to win a cup or finish in the top 4 every season but we really should have done better and its not bad or entitled to have that opinion. 

 

 

[Dames]

2 minutes ago, Collymore said:

This is so important isn't it and probably the biggest sticking point that seems almost impossible to solve. 

Its not impossible, just improbable due to the managers philosophy. If he ditched the ‘control at all costs’ style of play and allowed the team some creative freedom to actually look like they want to win games he’d get a lot more people back on board very quickly.

 

Its hard to feel good when you’re paying a lot of money and taking a lot of time out to watch and support the team and you’re being served some of the worst football in the league. 

[Mr Mister]

Underachieved.

[Collymore]

1 minute ago, Dames said:

Its not impossible, just improbable due to the managers philosophy. If he ditched the ‘control at all costs’ style of play and allowed the team some creative freedom to actually look like they want to win games he’d get a lot more people back on board very quickly.

 

Its hard to feel good when you’re paying a lot of money and taking a lot of time out to watch and support the team and you’re being served some of the worst football in the league. 

But as Rodgers would say "it's his mantra" 

 

So you either trust him or bin him, which is why we go around in circles and go back to square one! 

[StanSP]

7 minutes ago, Collymore said:

This is so important isn't it and probably the biggest sticking point that seems almost impossible to solve. 

Not impossible but the manager AND players make that difficult for themselves sometimes, let alone difficult for us!

 

It's the most important thing to have fans on side. 

[Pliskin]

We could be doing better. We’ve proven that, when we’re good we’re as good as anyone in the league. But, those days are becoming fairly less frequent. We need to find the reason as to why this is. 

[Monk]

I think we are underachieving but I think we are very close to being a great team. 
 

If we hadn’t given away all those late goals we would be challenging for at least a europa spot, and this season Vardy will have played the fewest number of games in a season for us since he signed. 
 

Yes the new signings have been poor, yes some players have regressed but I think the margins are much smaller than what people make out. 
 

I still think we have the capability of finishing in the top 4 next season under Rodgers with a fit squad and not falling asleep on 80 minutes. 

[Dames]

Just now, Collymore said:

But as Rodgers would say "it's his mantra" 

 

So you either trust him or bin him, which is why we go around in circles and go back to square one! 

This is why i’m in favour of binning him. A club like ours can’t seriously pay a man 10 million a year to keep making the same mistakes and decisions over and over. Mantra or not. 
 

We need a manager that is more pragmatic, makes more use of the strengths of the players we have and maximises every last ounce of potential. Something that hasn’t been done consistently enough with this group of players over the past 2-3 years. 

[CrispinLA in Texas]

2 minutes ago, Dames said:

Its not impossible, just improbable due to the managers philosophy. If he ditched the ‘control at all costs’ style of play and allowed the team some creative freedom to actually look like they want to win games he’d get a lot more people back on board very quickly.

 

Its hard to feel good when you’re paying a lot of money and taking a lot of time out to watch and support the team and you’re being served some of the worst football in the league. 

Look at Burnley now....with the reigns off, there playing creative winning football. The Burnley players seem to have got tired of Dyche's one style of crap anti football.

It feels like the players are happy playing the football they want to play by breaking free of a one dimensional authoritarian father figure.

[Lesta2014]

2 for me. All I ever ask is we have a go! Much prefer to lose 3-2 and a good game than go through the motions and lose 3-1 like today. 
 

football has become quite dull under Rogers which is confusing and a shame because the start of 2019/20 season we played some good stuff and it was enjoyable! 
 

We’ve not scored more than 2 in the league since before Christmas I believe, that’s not good enough with lads we have in front half of the pitch! 

[Guest Mickyblueeyes]

Underachieving. Rodgers has done well here. However, for the money spent. The investment behind the scenes, the lack of resolution to clear errors this season is unforgivable. 20 goals from corners. Last minute goals. Embarrassing collapses. There are issues. Issues he can’t fix. 
 

We need a fresh start. I have a lot of respect for Brendan and what he has done here but I don’t feel “safe” with him at the helm. I need the club needs that excitement it had back in Rodgers first pre-season here. That comes with new ideas and perhaps it’s time for us to evolve then radical change. 

[Collymore]

1 minute ago, StanSP said:

Not impossible but the manager AND players make that difficult for themselves sometimes, let alone difficult for us!

 

It's the most important thing to have fans on side. 

It comes purely down to results most of the time, doesn't it? 

It's never been about not trying or lack of effort, just the set up, which Rodgers would argue works most of the time if implemented in his head without any boomerangs! 

 

I just feel there's so many variables now it's really hard to benchmark what's happening at the club. 

 

 

[Ric Flair]

Par for the course for this squad, the supposed elite manager on a huge salary and the ambition of this club is 55 points a season, it simply has to be. So we are likely below that, this recent poor run in the league has shown we are way off this season and there's little sympathy if we don't right some wrongs in the next month. 

 

Huge summer and next season ahead, we were never always going to have it sweetness and light. Now the hard work starts again, let's see what Brendan is made of.