Tactics Under Maresca

[StriderHiryu]

13 minutes ago, Brizzle Fox said:

This is excellent. Key observation from me from speaking to a friend who supports Norwich is how pivotal Sargent is to how they set up and play. His loss long term is and will really hurt them. He's that important to them.

Yeah this is what I've heard too. He was a bit of a laughing stock in the Premier League, but these days he's got that prime Vardy aspect in terms of hunting players down and getting his team playing. He's a very selfless player and though I don't think he will ever be a good Premier League player, I have a lot of respect for players like him that are team players.

 

They are trying Adam Idah up top but he's never played there before, so they are bound to be affected by that injury.

[Arriba Los Zorros]

On 16/09/2023 at 09:33, Happy Fox said:

The real acid test will be our home games this season away from home we will win the majority of our games.

 

At home with opposition teams putting 11 men behind the ball, and trying to counter us that’s where we may come unstuck and I would hope we would try and play 2 upfront or a variation of 3-5-2

Interesting take, I think at the KP we'll be looking at a minimum of 1 point every match, and at times well just steamroller teams. Away from home well struggle at times against the more physical and motivated sides. Let's see. 

[Dan]

Saw our game but was half cut. Think it's the performance we've all been waiting for and I think you'd be pushed to find too many now who don't think we'll go up. I do however think Southampton are abysmal. Martin really is a bad manager, I'll be genuinely quite surprised if they make the play-offs being this bad at the back.

 

Wednesday will be a much tougher game I think.

 

Need to watch Friday back. Looked to me like we still had bits to iron out but we also showed that we've still got it on the break when we're presented with the space. So you can fully expect watching every team in the division (bar Southampton who wouldn't dare) come here and set up how Hull did.

[Dahnsouff]

9 hours ago, 5waller5 said:

Are you joking???

 

We are beating the press literally all the time. The reason Vestie dwells on the ball is to invite the press so that we can play through the lines.

 

The harder a team presses the more likely we are to destroy them! 

Think I must have some scars from last season on show here, I hope you are right, signs are positive

[ts_1010]

19 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

Yeah this is what I've heard too. He was a bit of a laughing stock in the Premier League, but these days he's got that prime Vardy aspect in terms of hunting players down and getting his team playing. He's a very selfless player and though I don't think he will ever be a good Premier League player, I have a lot of respect for players like him that are team players.

 

They are trying Adam Idah up top but he's never played there before, so they are bound to be affected by that injury.

Unsure if you watched the Norwich game against Huddersfield. (Warnock has been operating this man-marking press which is quite interesting imo.) 

 

In that game both strikers would interchange with the midfielders in their box. They have done this quite regularly since to break up their cover. 

 

This could be something to watch out for on the day. Especially if we do well in the early exchanges. 

 

Idah will be interesting. Not sure how comfortable he is dropping into midfield. If he does, we need to target him with a press. If he doesn't then Norwich's fluidity will be affected.

 

However I fully expect Wagner to come up with a new plan for us. 

[StriderHiryu]

21 minutes ago, ts_1010 said:

Unsure if you watched the Norwich game against Huddersfield. (Warnock has been operating this man-marking press which is quite interesting imo.) 

 

In that game both strikers would interchange with the midfielders in their box. They have done this quite regularly since to break up their cover. 

 

This could be something to watch out for on the day. Especially if we do well in the early exchanges. 

 

Idah will be interesting. Not sure how comfortable he is dropping into midfield. If he does, we need to target him with a press. If he doesn't then Norwich's fluidity will be affected.

 

However I fully expect Wagner to come up with a new plan for us. 

What do you mean exactly here? Sounds interesting!

 

• Strikers drop into make the box, the wingers push out to carry the threat (as shown in the diagram)?
• Midfielders run past the strikers who drop inside the box?
• Something else?

[ts_1010]

15 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

What do you mean exactly here? Sounds interesting!

 

• Strikers drop into make the box, the wingers push out to carry the threat (as shown in the diagram)?
• Midfielders run past the strikers who drop inside the box?
• Something else?

Point 2 here.  Barnes more commonly, but Sargent also would swap with a central midfielder to pull defenders out of position who were man marking them. A midfielder would push forward to continue the 424 formation. 

 

This was mainly against Huddersfield. But it's interesting to see that they are willing to get well out of position to compromise the opposing teams formation. 

 

 

 

[Dan]

On 15/09/2023 at 22:30, Finnegan said:

I would rather have been relegated and got Maresca than stayed up and got Martin. 

 

Honestly. 

If we had Martin in the PL I genuinely think there's a chance we'd hold 10 to somebody.

[st albans fox]

12 hours ago, ts_1010 said:

 

However I fully expect Wagner to come up with a new plan for us. 

probabky  but useful for us that they only have two full days training to practice it ! 

[Lillehamring]

On 15/09/2023 at 22:09, StriderHiryu said:

No pressure eh?

 

So far one big tactical thing to notice is that JJ brought into the team to cut out the long diagonal to Ryan Christie. I haven't seen enough of Southampton play to comment, but this seems like a specific tactic they use, and he's dealt with it well several times already.

Until required to play it on, when he proves he has a LOT to work on with his passing - a 67% pass rate is wholly unacceptable in this system.  especially as a few of his poor passes set up instant chances for southampton.

[Lillehamring]

On 15/09/2023 at 23:46, Aleksz said:

Saw a different side to Enzo tonight - less stubbornness towards “The Idea”.

 

Made a selection to play a bit more in transition including Vardy, Mavididi and McAteer in the side - and was happy to soak up pressure second half and surrender a bit of the ball knowing Vardy/Mavididi/McAteer/KDH would kill the game off on the break.

 

Fair play Enzo.

 

 

I don't think it has been through stubbornness, but more due to still having limited alternatives (given how early it is into his time here) and the nature of the teams we've previously played.

[Lillehamring]

On 16/09/2023 at 01:08, Simonb said:

Beauty of it is, we've got the squad for 4 at the back and this 3/4 at the back

 

For me it's jj coady faes and Ricky in the 4

 

But coady faes Doyle in the 3 with riccy doing the rb and cm role.

 

Like yourself I feel for vesty as he's done well, but even so, he doesn't make the final cut for me .. but it's still 40 games to go, Injuries, suspensions, tiredness.. he's still going to make 15 to 20 more starts 

It's not inconceivable that  he might even try a combination of Faes/Coady/Vestergaard - granted JV is not left footed, but he has more composure than doyle and more savvy - at least based on doyle's recent performances.  That said he was superb in the first few games.  Spoilt for choice.

[Simonb]

7 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

It's not inconceivable that  he might even try a combination of Faes/Coady/Vestergaard - granted JV is not left footed, but he has more composure than doyle and more savvy - at least based on doyle's recent performances.  That said he was superb in the first few games.  Spoilt for choice.

Yes I understand what you're saying, but Doyle JJ and Riccy offer something going forward, whereas jannik isn't going to be that guy. I'd imagine it'll be 2 from the 3 with Doyle going forward, or JJ

 

Tonight I'm hoping for JJ Jannik and Faes.. I think Norwich are too good to bring Coady in for his first game, and that Faes is currently our best cb so should be starting 

[Lillehamring]

On 16/09/2023 at 10:30, Scotch said:

Our Enzo LOVES JJ doesn't he?. He mentions him any chance he gets and i think it goes back to the first video we ever saw of Enzo going to visit Seagrave during pre-season and JJ being there working and training in his time off. I think that left a lasting impression. 

To be fair though, he's said positive things about every player - and i think his particular degree of gushing about JJ (who wasn't great in a lot of areas) is because the guy seems to be really low on confidence.  For example, for the southampton goal he doesn't do enough to win/stifle the long ball and then didn't seem to know where he should be in the aftermath of doyle's error; he's clearly intimidated by playing as a RCB rather than a FB.  Also telling that in the 33-pass goal, vestergaard has the option to pass to JJ numerous times but never does - clearly something isn't quite right mentally with Justin, despite him playing better than he has done for a long while - yes, he had some good moments, but equally he made some shocking passes and, especially for the che adams chance, was caught in a dream world and reacted by jumping in.

 

I'm not pointing this out to be critical of the bloke, but just suggesting that it seems to me that, following his injuries, he's a lost a good deal of edge to his game and it's great that Enzo is trying to correct this, as opposed to him genuinely believing that Justin was 'unbelievable' - which he clearly wasn't.

[st albans fox]

2 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

To be fair though, he's said positive things about every player - and i think his particular degree of gushing about JJ (who wasn't great in a lot of areas) is because the guy seems to be really low on confidence.  For example, for the southampton goal he doesn't do enough to win/stifle the long ball and then didn't seem to know where he should be in the aftermath of doyle's error; he's clearly intimidated by playing as a RCB rather than a FB.  Also telling that in the 33-pass goal, vestergaard has the option to pass to JJ numerous times but never does - clearly something isn't quite right mentally with Justin, despite him playing better than he has done for a long while - yes, he had some good moments, but equally he made some shocking passes and, especially for the che adams chance, was caught in a dream world and reacted by jumping in.

 

I'm not pointing this out to be critical of the bloke, but just suggesting that it seems to me that, following his injuries, he's a lost a good deal of edge to his game and it's great that Enzo is trying to correct this, as opposed to him genuinely believing that Justin was 'unbelievable' - which he clearly wasn't.

hIs first league start since autumn 2022

no surprise to see him a little rusty

[Lillehamring]

On 16/09/2023 at 13:58, Scotch said:

Could be he was working out where to play him and making sure he was ready to play there. 

 

Realistically, he could play in the Ricardo spot or the Doyle spot as well as the Faes one that he did last night. 

 

I reckon Enzo was ensuring he wasn't just thrown into the deep end of a position he wasn't 100% comfortable with. 

Realistically, he's nowhere near the ricardo spot - granted he's only played 90 minutes (though in a game where we passed very well as a team, and yes he was better in the cup games) but he has to improve his passing from a dismal 66% to play that position - ricardo, for the season, is completing 91%, winks 94%, and hamza 96% - it's such an incredibly technical position to play and does not play to Justin's strengths.

 

I think the reluctance to use him so far is twofold: 1. because he isn't playing with much confidence, certainly on the ball, and 2: because he only really has the skill set to play the outside CB role and, frankly, Faes and Doyle are better than him.

[Lillehamring]

28 minutes ago, Simonb said:

Yes I understand what you're saying, but Doyle JJ and Riccy offer something going forward, whereas jannik isn't going to be that guy. I'd imagine it'll be 2 from the 3 with Doyle going forward, or JJ

 

Tonight I'm hoping for JJ Jannik and Faes.. I think Norwich are too good to bring Coady in for his first game, and that Faes is currently our best cb so should be starting 

At the risk of sounding like i hate JJ (which i really don't), i completely disagree on what he brings going forward - at least as far as end product is concerned - 3 goals and 2 assists in 6115 minutes is very poor.

 

I get that Doyle has been a bit wobbly but he's actually contributes more to the attack than any other defender: his xA ranks third only to KDH and nacho, whilst only KDH and Stephy have more assists.

[Lillehamring]

24 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

hIs first league start since autumn 2022

no surprise to see him a little rusty

I don't think it can be put down to rust - he played 90 minutes against burton and 82 versus tranmere - and played really well in those games, his passing was terrific - nothing rusty about those outings, even against southjampton there were some really strong moments for him - this is why, to me, it seems his problem is that there are still some major confidence issues - specifically, when he has to step out of his comfort zone of covering the wide man and having to defend in the box or to play through the press where he looks extremely unsure.

[gurru991]

On 17/09/2023 at 18:44, Dan LCFC said:

Saw our game but was half cut. Think it's the performance we've all been waiting for and I think you'd be pushed to find too many now who don't think we'll go up. I do however think Southampton are abysmal. Martin really is a bad manager, I'll be genuinely quite surprised if they make the play-offs being this bad at the back.

 

Wednesday will be a much tougher game I think.

 

Need to watch Friday back. Looked to me like we still had bits to iron out but we also showed that we've still got it on the break when we're presented with the space. So you can fully expect watching every team in the division (bar Southampton who wouldn't dare) come here and set up how Hull did.

I am quite certain that Southampton will fire Martin in the very near future if he can't produce results. Every year you fail to get promotion, the task gets progressively harder

[Simonb]

2 hours ago, Lillehamring said:

At the risk of sounding like i hate JJ (which i really don't), i completely disagree on what he brings going forward - at least as far as end product is concerned - 3 goals and 2 assists in 6115 minutes is very poor.

 

I get that Doyle has been a bit wobbly but he's actually contributes more to the attack than any other defender: his xA ranks third only to KDH and nacho, whilst only KDH and Stephy have more assists.

I get what you're saying, but I just feel every time JJ was started to look like that marauding full back he picks up a long term injury, and then he's ushered in slowly, but that's just an opinion. I think under Maresca he may be better. Rodgers wouldn't allow taking risks, whereas Enzo has verbally stated the style of play allows for more risks to be taken. I felt under Rodgers we were too cagey and it held everyone back.

 

I like Doyle, I just feel a little kick up the backside by missing a game due to his mistakes wouldn't hurt him.

 

Tonight I'd go for Faes Vesty and JJ.. far more solid for me.

[Simonb]

4 minutes ago, gurru991 said:

I am quite certain that Southampton will fire Martin in the very near future if he can't produce results. Every year you fail to get promotion, the task gets progressively harder

I reckon he's got 3 games, maximum 5 to get it right or he's off.. that squads too good to be getting battered week in week out.. they should be thumping some teams this season.

 

[sacreblueits442]

2 minutes ago, Simonb said:

I reckon he's got 3 games, maximum 5 to get it right or he's off.. that squads too good to be getting battered week in week out.. they should be thumping some teams this season.

 

...this style of play is being replicated all over European leagues!!!

It will take time to get it right and I would suspect a few little tweaks will be beneficial for his team. When this is done right it is a very exciting and impressive way to play, it needs time to iron out the kinks.

[Ely fox]

The tactics are basically to score more goals than the other team and then we will win. 

[Tom12345]

On 14/09/2023 at 23:33, StriderHiryu said:

 

 

This one came up on my YouTube feed today, and whilst it might initially appear to be about Chelsea, it actually goes into why the 3241 system Pep and Maresca use is good at breaking low blocks. We see so much of what Man City were good at in our play already, which is pointed out in this video. A lot of this was new for me, so I found it very interesting!

• Crosses come from our number 8's instead of our wingers. That's because crosses from the byline against a deep block are much easier to defend against.
• Our wingers are good at dribbling and 1v1s so on paper they can go either way against a defender. Helps create more space to make goal opportunities.
• In a 4231 / 433, you usually try to play around a defensive block. In this system, you try to play through it.
• The structure of the 3421 means defenders have tough choices. If you push up, the ball in behind for the striker is on. If you step back too much, the 8's can do whatever they want.
• The 3421 system means attacks should be distributed evenly across both wings and the middle.
• You create goal threats from multiple players, not just the striker.

 

In the clip, if you look at the structure and moves that Man City make, it's near identical to what Maresca is trying to do.

 

In my opinion it's just a matter of time before things start clicking for us. Players need to get used to playing this way and playing with one another. But we already see the movements, the positions and runs into the right spaces. Maresca in his Southampton pre-match mentioned the review with players that stayed and teaching them to control the tempo and playing the right type of pass at the right time to open teams up. It might take us a few weeks and months to get good at that, but I am convinced it's coming!

 

Maybe this is Pep 2.0: More attacking. Simpler and less complicated. Just need all players to form the same pattern and less reliant on individual’s skills. Ange is renowned for being able to use substandard players and still attack - like when he was coach of the Socceroos which overachieved.

 

 

Edited 21 September 2023 by Tom12345

[Lillehamring]

26 minutes ago, Simonb said:

I get what you're saying, but I just feel every time JJ was started to look like that marauding full back he picks up a long term injury, and then he's ushered in slowly, but that's just an opinion. I think under Maresca he may be better. Rodgers wouldn't allow taking risks, whereas Enzo has verbally stated the style of play allows for more risks to be taken. I felt under Rodgers we were too cagey and it held everyone back.

 

I like Doyle, I just feel a little kick up the backside by missing a game due to his mistakes wouldn't hurt him.

 

Tonight I'd go for Faes Vesty and JJ.. far more solid for me.

It would be great if JJ develops into the player he could be, but personally i remember when he was at his peak thinking - yes, he's good but he makes a lot of mistakes and has no end product, hopefully he'll improve  in the next few seasons - sadly those next few seasons were riddled with injuries - i hope he makes good but, for all the recent praise, i can't see how enzo sees a future for him other than a back-up/long term replacement for faes or doyle.

 

Problem with dropping doyle is we don't have a left footed player to play as LCB - as discussed in this thread, it's hard to really play this system with a right-footer there, so i think he'll play; and i think faes will be back, fresh and ready, if there's any change it may be that he'll rest vestergaard and give coady some time.