Tactics Under Maresca

[cityfanlee23]

Trying not to be TOO negative, but I often try to look at this from a long term perspective but the more I analyse us so far (I'm aware how we play could dramatically change as players become more fluid) the more I feel like short term we may be okay but long term we could end up in trouble. Burnley have spent the best part of £100m and look absolutely horrendous playing this high line that we are adopting because they simply don't have the quality to play the way they are being asked at this higher level. In the championship you can largely get away with mistakes (as we have seen so far) but ultimately a club needs to be run with 3–5 years ahead of it if we are looking to really change the blueprint to something sustainable long term.

There is a long way to go, but I'm concerned that we are going to spend a long time instilling this brand of football into the ethos of the club then find we don't have the players to make it work should we start getting punished for our very amateur mistakes, and will get hammered if we go up and try to continue without significant spending on very high quality players.
Burnley looks to have slightly adapted this season and don't seem as connected as last year (not that I watched them week in week out) and I think that watching Burnley in the Premier League could be a half decent indication of just how these pep style tactics work with lesser quality players.

I want to be optimistic, but so far we've been pretty awful for the individual quality we have. I know that right now our priority is getting out of this league, but there has to be a long term view in place and I think unless we plan on spending huge sums if we get promoted it could come back to haunt us. Hopefully I'm wrong. Early days.

[Chrysalis]

16 hours ago, cityfanlee23 said:

Trying not to be TOO negative, but I often try to look at this from a long term perspective but the more I analyse us so far (I'm aware how we play could dramatically change as players become more fluid) the more I feel like short term we may be okay but long term we could end up in trouble. Burnley have spent the best part of £100m and look absolutely horrendous playing this high line that we are adopting because they simply don't have the quality to play the way they are being asked at this higher level. In the championship you can largely get away with mistakes (as we have seen so far) but ultimately a club needs to be run with 3–5 years ahead of it if we are looking to really change the blueprint to something sustainable long term.

There is a long way to go, but I'm concerned that we are going to spend a long time instilling this brand of football into the ethos of the club then find we don't have the players to make it work should we start getting punished for our very amateur mistakes, and will get hammered if we go up and try to continue without significant spending on very high quality players.
Burnley looks to have slightly adapted this season and don't seem as connected as last year (not that I watched them week in week out) and I think that watching Burnley in the Premier League could be a half decent indication of just how these pep style tactics work with lesser quality players.

I want to be optimistic, but so far we've been pretty awful for the individual quality we have. I know that right now our priority is getting out of this league, but there has to be a long term view in place and I think unless we plan on spending huge sums if we get promoted it could come back to haunt us. Hopefully I'm wrong. Early days.

I share the same concern, Top wants this brand of football though, so just hoping we can make it work somehow.

[StriderHiryu]

17 hours ago, cityfanlee23 said:

Trying not to be TOO negative, but I often try to look at this from a long term perspective but the more I analyse us so far (I'm aware how we play could dramatically change as players become more fluid) the more I feel like short term we may be okay but long term we could end up in trouble. Burnley have spent the best part of £100m and look absolutely horrendous playing this high line that we are adopting because they simply don't have the quality to play the way they are being asked at this higher level. In the championship you can largely get away with mistakes (as we have seen so far) but ultimately a club needs to be run with 3–5 years ahead of it if we are looking to really change the blueprint to something sustainable long term.

There is a long way to go, but I'm concerned that we are going to spend a long time instilling this brand of football into the ethos of the club then find we don't have the players to make it work should we start getting punished for our very amateur mistakes, and will get hammered if we go up and try to continue without significant spending on very high quality players.
Burnley looks to have slightly adapted this season and don't seem as connected as last year (not that I watched them week in week out) and I think that watching Burnley in the Premier League could be a half decent indication of just how these pep style tactics work with lesser quality players.

I want to be optimistic, but so far we've been pretty awful for the individual quality we have. I know that right now our priority is getting out of this league, but there has to be a long term view in place and I think unless we plan on spending huge sums if we get promoted it could come back to haunt us. Hopefully I'm wrong. Early days.

You make good points, but the irony of posting this whilst simultaneously having a Jesse Marsch avatar is not lost on me

[justfoxes]

Mentions our problem is our final third so we have Daka sitting on his arse not getting game time so give the lad a chance Enzo see what the lad can do, you’ve tried Vardy & Nacho with not much joy so why not give him a run in the squad some on here are not fans of this lad but he can score give him the confidence he needs and he’ll score for fun in this league great that we’re getting goals from elsewhere on the team but we need our strikers to out score everyone and I think Daka is the one Fast young hungry yes he needs work on his first touch but he can learn like I said some may not agree but I think there’s some real quality in Daka !

 

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/enzo-maresca-identifies-key-leicester-8740873

[coolhandfox]

19 hours ago, cityfanlee23 said:

Trying not to be TOO negative, but I often try to look at this from a long term perspective but the more I analyse us so far (I'm aware how we play could dramatically change as players become more fluid) the more I feel like short term we may be okay but long term we could end up in trouble. Burnley have spent the best part of £100m and look absolutely horrendous playing this high line that we are adopting because they simply don't have the quality to play the way they are being asked at this higher level. In the championship you can largely get away with mistakes (as we have seen so far) but ultimately a club needs to be run with 3–5 years ahead of it if we are looking to really change the blueprint to something sustainable long term.

There is a long way to go, but I'm concerned that we are going to spend a long time instilling this brand of football into the ethos of the club then find we don't have the players to make it work should we start getting punished for our very amateur mistakes, and will get hammered if we go up and try to continue without significant spending on very high quality players.
Burnley looks to have slightly adapted this season and don't seem as connected as last year (not that I watched them week in week out) and I think that watching Burnley in the Premier League could be a half decent indication of just how these pep style tactics work with lesser quality players.

I want to be optimistic, but so far we've been pretty awful for the individual quality we have. I know that right now our priority is getting out of this league, but there has to be a long term view in place and I think unless we plan on spending huge sums if we get promoted it could come back to haunt us. Hopefully I'm wrong. Early days.

Brighton have done is without spending a fortune.

 

Swansea also did a pretty good job of playing possession football whe  they came up to the PL for 6 seasons with limited resources.

 

We also did it pretty well under Rodgers for 2 season.

 

It not always what you spend but how you spend it.

 

 

[CloudFox]

Really interesting article from Tanner in The Athletic today:

 

Later on I'll try to pull some numbers out without completely pasting the whole article here 😅. Some really interesting numbers though, including this from Opta:

 

 

 

 

[Dusty]

49 minutes ago, CloudFox said:

Really interesting article from Tanner in The Athletic today:

 

Later on I'll try to pull some numbers out without completely pasting the whole article here 😅. Some really interesting numbers though, including this from Opta:

 

 

 

 

Yeah for once I was actually quite impressed with a Tanner article. 
 

I think it highlights our strengths and weaknesses really well and I think it provides a bit of balance that everyone on this thread needed. Imo it settles the argument of “pointless possession” and just “passing sideways and backwards” as the number of shots and passing sequences leading to shots numbers are relatively high.

 

But it does explain that we have been very poor at creating high quality chances, as I think we all expected as well and although we take lots of shots, many of them are from suboptimal positions. I’m hopeful this will just come with time and there aren’t many glaring changes we need to make to ideology, just execution and confidence. 

[filbertway]

43 minutes ago, Dusty said:

Yeah for once I was actually quite impressed with a Tanner article. 
 

I think it highlights our strengths and weaknesses really well and I think it provides a bit of balance that everyone on this thread needed. Imo it settles the argument of “pointless possession” and just “passing sideways and backwards” as the number of shots and passing sequences leading to shots numbers are relatively high.

 

But it does explain that we have been very poor at creating high quality chances, as I think we all expected as well and although we take lots of shots, many of them are from suboptimal positions. I’m hopeful this will just come with time and there aren’t many glaring changes we need to make to ideology, just execution and confidence. 

The more passes you make, the more time the opposition has to get into a compact shape, so I don't really think we'll see more high % chances being fashioned.

 

I'd imagine more clear cut chances come from fewer passes that give the opposition less time to get into shape. The possession helps to tire out the opposition, both mentally and physically. Although I do think it can also put our own players into a bit of a trance where they become a bit lethargic and forget the need to move the ball quickly to create chances.

 

Definitely an interesting article though and good to see something a bit more informative rather than regurgitating stories most of us are already aware of.

[Dusty]

4 hours ago, filbertway said:

The more passes you make, the more time the opposition has to get into a compact shape, so I don't really think we'll see more high % chances being fashioned.

 

I'd imagine more clear cut chances come from fewer passes that give the opposition less time to get into shape. The possession helps to tire out the opposition, both mentally and physically. Although I do think it can also put our own players into a bit of a trance where they become a bit lethargic and forget the need to move the ball quickly to create chances.

 

Definitely an interesting article though and good to see something a bit more informative rather than regurgitating stories most of us are already aware of.

I don’t think fewer passes is the way to create better chances at all. There will obviously be transitions where being more direct and vertical with fewer passes will be the best option but I think in our game those opportunities aren’t going to crop up that often anyway. I think we just need to be more comfortable and confident in the system, once everyone understands what they need to do they can strath thriving at it. 

[CloudFox]

Another one to bookmark (presuming it gets updated as the season goes on):

 

Championship Stats: 2023-24 Season

https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/08/championship-stats-2023-24-opta

 

As of today...

 

Shots from Open Play

Joint 2nd in shots from Open Play:

 

Team Sequence Styles

As might be expected, our style is slower and more intricate than most, but faster/more direct than the likes of Preston (top of the league), QPR, Southampton (with whom we have drawn and will draw comparisons).

 

Zones of Control

Now this is interesting.

We already know we dominate possession in our games. But in terms of territory? We dominate the pitch more than any other team. Curiously we seem to occupy the right side of the opposition penalty box with possession.

 

However, of most interest to me is that the "Right Back" area which Ricardo obviously vacates to come inside is marked as contested. That makes a lot of sense, but is not dominated by the opposition. So perhaps it's not as weak a point as we expected, so far?

 

Right, that's enough from me. I've not even done the Athletic article, so I'll leave to someone else now 😅😁.

Edited 11 September 2023 by CloudFox

[CloudFox]

9 minutes ago, CloudFox said:

Another one to bookmark (presuming it gets updated as the season goes on):

 

Championship Stats: 2023-24 Season

https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/08/championship-stats-2023-24-opta

 

As of today...

 

Shots from Open Play

Joint 2nd in shots from Open Play:

 

Team Sequence Styles

As might be expected, our style is slower and more intricate than most, but faster/more direct than the likes of Preston (top of the league), QPR, Southampton (with whom we have drawn and will draw comparisons).

 

Zones of Control

Now this is interesting.

We already know we dominate possession in our games. But in terms of territory? We dominate the pitch more than any other team. Curiously we seem to occupy the right side of the opposition penalty box with possession.

 

However, of most interest to me is that the "Right Back" area which Ricardo obviously vacates to come inside is marked as contested. That makes a lot of sense, but is not dominated by the opposition. So perhaps it's not as weak a point as we expected, so far?

 

Right, that's enough from me. I've not even done the Athletic article, so I'll leave to someone else now 😅😁.

I've also just realised that we are performing almost spot on with our xG too. Interesting!

[cityfanlee23]

9 hours ago, coolhandfox said:

Brighton have done is without spending a fortune.

 

Swansea also did a pretty good job of playing possession football whe  they came up to the PL for 6 seasons with limited resources.

 

We also did it pretty well under Rodgers for 2 season.

 

It not always what you spend but how you spend it.

 

 

This is true but I think Swansea/Brighton and us under rodgers played pretty simple football with largely traditional roles and positions whereas Maresca currently has Ndidi getting himself into the box and ending up drifting into the space between the full back and the opposing centreback, Ricardo is finding himself in midfield etc etc.

So I fully get what you're saying however I think trying to play these sort of dynamic pep style tactics takes a very specific kind of player. Jesse Marsch found that at Leeds, his style was also very dynamic and almost ignored traditional positions.

[cityfanlee23]

11 hours ago, Chrysalis said:

I share the same concern, Top wants this brand of football though, so just hoping we can make it work somehow.

If it's going to work, I want it too! *Providing the end goal is to play similarly to Man City*

[cropstonfox]

Man city would still have won the past Trophies playing 4.321 or 433 as they have the best players.

Players win games ,formations are important but secondary in importance. 

If we get promoted with this squad we will be in a relegation battle regardless of tactics.

[sacreblueits442]

1 hour ago, cropstonfox said:

Man city would still have won the past Trophies playing 4.321 or 433 as they have the best players.

Players win games ,formations are important but secondary in importance. 

If we get promoted with this squad we will be in a relegation battle regardless of tactics.

...tactics are fundamental to success, there wouldn't be the need for the constant re-invention of the game in order to gain that upper hand!!!

Manchester City have achieved success due to how they play, the ability or inability of their opponents to overcome what is before them and the quality players who implement the tactics.

  Did they need Mahrez, I do not think so, It had two advantages to bring him in, firstly it was a proven player who could play the system that they wanted and had the ability to outwit a defence, and secondly, it took Mahrez off the market weakening potential rivals. Football has elevated itself to chess, someone just needs to come up with a certain different approach to render current convention outdated.

[Dahnsouff]

8 hours ago, cropstonfox said:

Man city would still have won the past Trophies playing 4.321 or 433 as they have the best players.

Players win games ,formations are important but secondary in importance. 

If we get promoted with this squad we will be in a relegation battle regardless of tactics.

If we got promoted, the squad would be strengthened

[Bert]

On 10/09/2023 at 16:51, cityfanlee23 said:

Trying not to be TOO negative, but I often try to look at this from a long term perspective but the more I analyse us so far (I'm aware how we play could dramatically change as players become more fluid) the more I feel like short term we may be okay but long term we could end up in trouble. Burnley have spent the best part of £100m and look absolutely horrendous playing this high line that we are adopting because they simply don't have the quality to play the way they are being asked at this higher level. In the championship you can largely get away with mistakes (as we have seen so far) but ultimately a club needs to be run with 3–5 years ahead of it if we are looking to really change the blueprint to something sustainable long term.

There is a long way to go, but I'm concerned that we are going to spend a long time instilling this brand of football into the ethos of the club then find we don't have the players to make it work should we start getting punished for our very amateur mistakes, and will get hammered if we go up and try to continue without significant spending on very high quality players.
Burnley looks to have slightly adapted this season and don't seem as connected as last year (not that I watched them week in week out) and I think that watching Burnley in the Premier League could be a half decent indication of just how these pep style tactics work with lesser quality players.

I want to be optimistic, but so far we've been pretty awful for the individual quality we have. I know that right now our priority is getting out of this league, but there has to be a long term view in place and I think unless we plan on spending huge sums if we get promoted it could come back to haunt us. Hopefully I'm wrong. Early days.

You make some good points. But if we get promoted, we won’t be faced with so many deep blocks each game. Also we would be a much more attractive proposition than Burnley next season even if they stay up.

[Gazza M]

You can only play like this style when the talent is one of the best in the division otherwise you end up keeping the ball in your own half where the opposition want you to have it. Something Top and Rudkin have yet to realise I think.

 

It may work this year and I hope it does but as Burnley have found out its a bit different trying to play attractive football with limited players. 

 

Hopefully our squad can grow and step up to be good players at the next level if we get promoted playing this way.

[Chelmofox]

8 hours ago, cropstonfox said:

Man city would still have won the past Trophies playing 4.321 or 433 as they have the best players.

Players win games ,formations are important but secondary in importance. 

If we get promoted with this squad we will be in a relegation battle regardless of tactics.

Don't agree at all. Chelsea, Man U have all paid big money for the 'best players'. PSG did it. It has never guaranteed success, and for PSG they got nowhere near winning the CL.  Like it or not, Pep has been able to morph some great players around his system. With most of them, it takes time for them to bed in. Is Akanji one of the best players? Certainly not.

 

It hasn't happened for Pep just because he has access to some of the best players. There has been far more to it than that. 

 

In terms of us, i think no matter how we try and get promoted we will have a very difficult season next year. But promotion isn't guaranteed just because we think we have some of the best players (in the same way that many thought we had too much quality to get relegated). I really think this system is a smart way to get promoted and the rebuild will continue for some time. There will be outgoings in January and next summer, and strengthening for the future.  I don't understand why people think this will just sit still?

[volpeazzurro]

On 10/09/2023 at 16:51, cityfanlee23 said:

Trying not to be TOO negative, but I often try to look at this from a long term perspective but the more I analyse us so far (I'm aware how we play could dramatically change as players become more fluid) the more I feel like short term we may be okay but long term we could end up in trouble. Burnley have spent the best part of £100m and look absolutely horrendous playing this high line that we are adopting because they simply don't have the quality to play the way they are being asked at this higher level. In the championship you can largely get away with mistakes (as we have seen so far) but ultimately a club needs to be run with 3–5 years ahead of it if we are looking to really change the blueprint to something sustainable long term.

There is a long way to go, but I'm concerned that we are going to spend a long time instilling this brand of football into the ethos of the club then find we don't have the players to make it work should we start getting punished for our very amateur mistakes, and will get hammered if we go up and try to continue without significant spending on very high quality players.
Burnley looks to have slightly adapted this season and don't seem as connected as last year (not that I watched them week in week out) and I think that watching Burnley in the Premier League could be a half decent indication of just how these pep style tactics work with lesser quality players.

I want to be optimistic, but so far we've been pretty awful for the individual quality we have. I know that right now our priority is getting out of this league, but there has to be a long term view in place and I think unless we plan on spending huge sums if we get promoted it could come back to haunt us. Hopefully I'm wrong. Early days.

I don't think you're being negative, quite realistic in fact. 

 

If we're going to term a particular style of football, for arguments sake, the Manchester City way, then unless you've got their players or better, there's usually only going to be one winner. There's also something self defeating if teams slavishly merely copy, or try to, another's style. Whilst not attractive, there was a time when teams like a Wimbledon, Bolton or Stoke City could ruffle the feathers of such teams merely because of their differences and resistance to emulating them. They gave them big problems they weren't used to. 

 

There was also a time when Spanish football in the shape of Barcelona and Real Madrid ruled for a while, particularly Barcelona who had particular players who were expert at their particular passing game. One year this was spectacularly blown apart by Bayern Munich and Dortmund by taking what they did and adding pace and physicality. 

 

Maresca's 'style' should be good enough to be thereabouts in this division but as someone rightly pointed out, in the Premiership we would come up well short without a big change of personnel if we merely employed more of the same. 

 

There has to be more to football than merely copying the most successful team or,  in Rodger's case, seemingly trying to vaguely mimic something obsolete from the past without the players to do it anyway whilst ignoring their natural talents and abilities totally. 

 

There surely always has to be a recognition of the talents of the players you actually have and a way of playing, or tactics, that thwarts the usual efforts of the team before you on any particular day. How different in this way were we in 2016? Manchester City team £350m, us 21.5m! Substance over style. Team over individuals. Yes we had Kante, Vardy and Marhez but where were all the other superstars? We were a team playing to it's own strengths in it own way whilst disrespecting to some extent the methods and styles of our counterparts. They couldn't cope with us!

 

The trick also, is not always be exactly the same because you'll be worked out very quickly. Maresca is trying hard to instill some very good things and all of it, together with discipline and attitude are vital. However, to be ultimately successful, this can only be a starting point and adaptability has to be built in too including having the players to do it. Players like Souttar, JJ, Daka and even Kristiansen if he was to come back, may all still have a part in our future. If we were to merely become a cheap copy of someone else or a one trick pony, we'll only I'd suggest perhaps get past the first hurdle. 

[davieG]

If we get promoted I'm sure they'll be significant investment and hopefully some of the current squad will have developed into players good enough for this system and the PL.  Many of the players Pep recruited  weren't good enough or correct for his system but he developed them I'd be surprised if Enzo wasn't involved in that so he should have the ability to improve our own players.

 

It's football there's always a chance that individually we  could be too good to get promoted. Hmm sounds familiar.

[Chelmofox]

20 hours ago, justfoxes said:

Mentions our problem is our final third so we have Daka sitting on his arse not getting game time so give the lad a chance Enzo see what the lad can do, you’ve tried Vardy & Nacho with not much joy so why not give him a run in the squad some on here are not fans of this lad but he can score give him the confidence he needs and he’ll score for fun in this league great that we’re getting goals from elsewhere on the team but we need our strikers to out score everyone and I think Daka is the one Fast young hungry yes he needs work on his first touch but he can learn like I said some may not agree but I think there’s some real quality in Daka !

 

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/enzo-maresca-identifies-key-leicester-8740873

We are a few games in , and the manager has utilised players that he has been able to trust in this path to rebuild this system. Although i've been critical of Nacho, he is clearly playing how he has been instructed to in this false 9 capacity. Its going to take time, but up until this point it not made sense for Enzo to start just 'chucking players in' and seeing what they can do. There will be no structure to that. Especially as some of those players were ones expected to leave.

 

As i said before, games come thick and fast now with 7 in a 32 day period. We will start getting to the point where the system needs to be second nature to the players and the manager will start to make adjustments. There will be fatigue, players will need resting, and i imagine there will be injuries. It will be fascinating to players come back into the fold but they won't be thrown in, Enzo will have a plan for it.

[filbertway]

4 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

If we got promoted, the squad would be strengthened

We'd sign players certainly, but given our recent track record, "strengthened" is a bold call  

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, filbertway said:

We'd sign players certainly, but given our recent track record, "strengthened" is a bold call  

I originally just put "added too", but changed it in light of unfounded optimism   

[Drink Water]

14 hours ago, cropstonfox said:

If we get promoted with this squad we will be in a relegation battle regardless of tactics.

We would invest in a super squad if we got promoted, what are you on about