Dannzy

[tomtom]

What I find bizarre is how at the start of the season people on here were completely slating 4-3-3 and screaming for the diamond formation,...now all of a sudden it restricts our midfield and 4-3-3 is the answer

Just saying!

[cc_star]

Did Paul Scholes have much pace? Neither had Bryan Robson. I'm not advocating that King is in the class of either of these two players...of course he isnt..but that instinct of being able to burst into the box, unnoticed, to pop one in is not about fleet of foot, its about having a quick mind. Not many players have this and typically it can't be taught. Its the diamond that is thwarting both King and Danns.. not their ability

This.

Danns isn't a replacement for Wellens though, he's not a playmaker nor someone to (generally) retain posession.

As I see it, Johnson/Wellens are similar-ish in passing role as should be Abe/Fernandes in the box-to-box dynamo, and although Danns & King are different players they're both goal scoring midfielders and neither are suited to this seasons's formation/tactics... Yet...

[Corky]

King is not an attacking midfielder, he scores lots of goals but these are mostly due to the timing of his runs. Playing him too far forward will nullify his impact.

He is more of a defensive player, not negative and holding as he doesn't tackle well enough but makes many clearances, especially from corners.

[Rustyfox]

I like the diamond formation because it allows us to retain possession for long periods. However, it is a pretty narrow formation and can become a bit crowded if the full backs dont get forward at every opportunity.

Norwich played this formation particular well last season and the keys were Full backs getting forward like wingers and they relied alot on Wes Hoolahan to run at the defence or thread the final pass.

I personally think the 4-3-3 suits the midfielders we've got at the minute, but at the same time im not convinced the 3 forward players are ideal for the formation.

one of the issues i have with Sven is that i think he's brought players that are available rather than specific players that wud fit into the way he wants to play

[The Doctor]

nah, the holding man is the beast of the team.. the one that makes the tough challenges, wins the ball and sets everything off again. This is exactly what Neil Lennon did - the amount of opposition attacks he thwarted by his industry and knowing where to position himself was the fulcrum of MON's teams. He then simply laid it off to Muzzy, Parker and they played the football...

King isnt quick enough or tough enough to play this position - for me this would have to be Fernandes in Sven's team, as Abe just aint good enough.

Brings me back to the point I made in the summer regarding our lack of quality in this position - a stopper, a thwarter - breaks stuff up and starts us attacking again. Fernandes IMO is the best we have in this role.. but not that good at it

really?

Because from what I remember of AC Milan over the past decade or so, Pirlo tended to play as a holding midfielder - hardly a "beast" that chappie.

[Fox92]

really?

Because from what I remember of AC Milan over the past decade or so, Pirlo tended to play as a holding midfielder - hardly a "beast" that chappie.

Thats what I mean. I do critisize King, but I think if he is going to play anywhere, it would be in the holding man position.

I know he does loose track of players sometimes, but he doesn't rush into tackles and he seems to pass sideways and backwards more.

[Ric Flair]

How on earth is King and Wellens getting in the team ahead of this fella? Danns should start saturday.

I have seen enough of King over the last few years now and as much as I want him to be a legend for us, he just doesn't quite have what it takes.

He's not young anymore, that isn't an excuse. He's nearly 23 apparently. Let's be honest, if he wasn't from the academy no one would want him in the team. He has no pace, he can't really tackle, he passes sideways, he has no instinct on the pitch. I would be interested to see if anyone on here honestly thinks Andy King is a top player? Also everytime i've seen him play for Wales he has looked out of his depth. Sorry andy!

In my opinion we should be looking to sell Kingy in Janurary. I'm sure everyone will disagree though.

It might have something to do with the amount of goals and assists he's provided us with in the last 3 seasons? Penis

King is not an attacking midfielder, he scores lots of goals but these are mostly due to the timing of his runs. Playing him too far forward will nullify his impact.

He is more of a defensive player, not negative and holding as he doesn't tackle well enough but makes many clearances, especially from corners.

[lcfc22]

How on earth is King and Wellens getting in the team ahead of this fella? Danns should start saturday.

I have seen enough of King over the last few years now and as much as I want him to be a legend for us, he just doesn't quite have what it takes.

He's not young anymore, that isn't an excuse. He's nearly 23 apparently. Let's be honest, if he wasn't from the academy no one would want him in the team. He has no pace, he can't really tackle, he passes sideways, he has no instinct on the pitch. I would be interested to see if anyone on here honestly thinks Andy King is a top player? Also everytime i've seen him play for Wales he has looked out of his depth. Sorry andy!

In my opinion we should be looking to sell Kingy in Janurary. I'm sure everyone will disagree though.

You put in kings bad points but you seem to forget he's easily the best finisher from midfield in the league, that's like saying Lampards a bad player when he was scoring 20 goals a season because hes not the best player but a hell of a goalscorer!

[Guest Col city fan]

really?

Because from what I remember of AC Milan over the past decade or so, Pirlo tended to play as a holding midfielder - hardly a "beast" that chappie.

Gattuso was the ball winner large al.. Won it and gave it to pirlo... Worked beautifully didn't it

[Freeman's Wharfer]

But why is he class? I would love to know why you think he is class. Because he scores a goal every now and then?

It's a fact that no one can answer why they believe Andy King is class. Other than the reason's he can score goals and he's from the academy. Is that really enough to warrant a place in our midfield?

It's not a fact that no one can answer why King is class. It's a fact that no one has done so because it's clear to anyone who knows the game that he is and no one can be arsed to explain something that is so blindingly clear. For your peace of mind I will.

I'll start with the basics: technical ability. Some players strike a ball far better than others. I'll keep it LCFC related so let's take Kisnorbo, couldn't pass for shit but could tackle and head as well as any other defender in the division at the time. King's passing and shooting is class as evidenced in the fact that he rarely gives the ball away and through the numerous class goals he has scored over the seasons (I'll refer you to Leeds at home and Coventry away last year - we won't go too far back as you've obviously got a short memory to be slating King now).

People might moan that he passes sideways or backwards too much but for me this isn't a problem. Without the ball you can't score and with a team of Andy Kings you wouldn't give the ball away much. King's job is to make an option, receive the ball and give it back to a team mate to keep the ball moving, and then make his move to get in the box to finish the move.

Next we'll go for workrate. King covers a lot of ground and this often goes unnoticed (the 'Invisible Man'). But you don't notice someone who doesn't make mistakes. Defensively King is very clever. He's not the best tackler but he shepherds his man out of an area which may be dangerous to the team and he does a lot of running. This is why he might tire towards the end of games, if you want to use that as a stick to beat him with then what would you prefer? An immobile Andy Johnson perhaps?

Goal-scoring knack: for a midfielder King scores a fantastic number of goals. Why? His movement and timing are class. One of the few positives of Sousa's time was that he pushed King a little further forward than Pearson (a little more defensively minded) so that he would be free from the restraints of a marker when making his runs. The result? King scored several goals and had even more disallowed. His awareness and knack of being in the right place at the right time aren't resultant of luck, it's, you guessed it, his class.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed but whenever we score a goal through someone other than King he's always the first/one of the first to join them in celebration. That's because he's either helped make the goal or his movement has left him close to the area in which the goal-scoring opportunity became available.

This season, wilst not having hit top form yet, he seems to have improved his running with the ball. He looks stronger, faster and against Southampton in the first half in particular he was linking with Vassell to cause them all sorts of problems (anyone remember that run into the area against Coventry?).

I hope I've done enough to show you why I'm in the King is class club. It's by no means an exclusive club, Pearson, Sousa and Sven are in it, the Wales national team's management are here, Premiership scouts often come by to see how he's doing and we've even got the majority of the last two season's players in it. They're here after voting for him as player of the season for the last two seasons. They did this because they know he's class. Oh, and those that voted him in the PFA Championship team of the year sometimes pop by too.

Maybe that's what it is though, maybe you have to have a sound knowledge and understanding of the game to see why Andy King is class. And maybe you just don't have this.

[vandamman]

What people are forgetting is he's a traditional central midfielder imo, he can defend a bit but can also attack. What is everyones obsession with midfielders either being attack or defensive minded?

He's our best player, end of.

[Jakemoore]

I would like us to start Danzy!! I think he's an attacking threat and he's quick unlike the rest of our midfield, as for selling King, are you stupid?? You want to sell our top goal scorer, thank God you're not Sven I guess!!

[The Doctor]

Gattuso was the ball winner large al.. Won it and gave it to pirlo... Worked beautifully didn't it

Pirlo absolutely carried Gattuso though - Gattuso was an over-rated pit-bull who was reliant on top players alongside him, look what happened to him while at rangers.

[Thracian]

You don't understand though King is already developed. He's 23. That is not young in football terms, in general life it is. 16 is young for football. If we get promoted to the premiership then there is no way King could compete at that level. I would love to be proved wrong, but he hasn't got that spark or energy I like to see from a midfielder.

Martin Peters and Alan Ball didn't have much "spark" athletically either and won a world cup with England. King is nowhere like the finished article and I actually wish he had left cos he'd almost certainly be learning more from playing in a more balanced attacking side than he seems to be learning here in our hourglass brand of football.

Someone mentioned Bryan Robson in this thread. Well King's goals average is better than Robsons and over a pretty significant number of games considering his youth. Furthermore it would be lots easier for King to score in United's side with all the movement and chances they create than ever he'll find it in Leicester's contracted form of attacking where there's so little effective width to prise open defences and so few potential scorers for the opposition to watch out for.

King has 35 goals in 150 League games so far or one every 4.25 games.

Robson scored 115 goals in 568 league games - mostly for the nation's most attacking side and scored at the rate of just about 1 in 5. That's a significant difference so anyone questioning King's pedigree needs to have a close look at the facts.

Just how difficult it is to score from midfield for Leicester can be emphasised by the stats for our other midfielders. Check for yourself but it adds up to sweet damn all BETWEEN THEM and that includes Wellens, Abe, Oakley, Vassell (more of a supposed striker), Dyer (poor bloke rarely plays) and even going back to the likes of Hughes, Tiatto, Williams etc ad infinitum. Even Joey Gudjonsson with 10 goals one season only scored at the rate of 1 in 7.7 games.

[RowlattsFox]

Is this another case of a player going up in peoples opinion because they are not playing?

Danns started the season in the team but did nothing outstanding, he is a good player and will do ok when he gets the chance.

I too think Sven will revert back to 433 when he as nugent and gallagher fit, especially at home.

[SpartakAnj]

What I find bizarre is how at the start of the season people on here were completely slating 4-3-3 and screaming for the diamond formation,...now all of a sudden it restricts our midfield and 4-3-3 is the answer

Just saying!

People were slating 4-3-3 earlier in the season because we were simply not playing well. I think 4-3-3 with a front line of Nugent and Vassell as wide forwards and Beckford down the middle would give teams problems. Vassell could offer width and pace and Nugent could push right up and support Beckford. That would also allow us, as others have already said, to get the best out of the 3 central midfielders. I honestly think that when everyone is fit Sven will revert to this system.

However, I think the 4-3-3 is almost completely dependent on Nugent and Vassell as I do not think there are any other players in the squad that can play in those roles. Gallagher can but he lacks pace and I think Dyer is more of an orthodox winger. Its an area that Sven needs to strengthen in January.

[Kitchandro]

I don't think Wellens or King are doing enough at the moment to warrant a place in the team. That's not to say they aren't good players, but they aren't in form at the moment for whatever reason.

The problem is actually, despite this idea we have strength in depth, that we don't have anyone who is screaming 'you've got to pick me instead'. I probably would like to Danns to come in to shake things up a bit, but whilst he is a good player, he's also not really done much so far, the Forest game aside. Despite being one of our only midfielders with pace, he hasn't had the guts to beat anyone enough, much like Dyer and Vassell.

Moussa has looked decent from what I've seen but there is a question mark whether he's upto challenging for a spot and Oakley would be a step backwards. The best midfielder so far has been Fernandes and even he's had as many poor games as very good ones.

As for King, he may well be class in terms of technical ability, vision and goalscoring - however he's showing none of these qualities at the moment and even last season he wasn't showing his potential on a regular basis (apart from goals). But whilst he was priceless for us then, he's expendable now because he is lacking his main strength at the moment. It is generally true that when he's not scoring he's not doing anything. And no it's not because I'm not watching close enough, he doesn't chase or close down much, can't tackle and despite having real quality on the ball he too often shifts responsibility to another teammate instead of turning when recieving the ball and trying to make something happen. Even on the rare occassions when he does try to do something with it, he is still too lightweight and tackled easily. And no it's not because he's being played out of position either, he's being played very much in position.

I don't wish we'd sold King at all but I wouldn't complain if he was dropped to give him a kick up the arse, then again he was dropped at Barnsley, came on and scored but has faded into anonymity again. He needs to be performing far better as do the other midfielders.

[leicesterseddon]

People were slating 4-3-3 earlier in the season because we were simply not playing well. I think 4-3-3 with a front line of Nugent and Vassell as wide forwards and Beckford down the middle would give teams problems. Vassell could offer width and pace and Nugent could push right up and support Beckford. That would also allow us, as others have already said, to get the best out of the 3 central midfielders. I honestly think that when everyone is fit Sven will revert to this system.

However, I think the 4-3-3 is almost completely dependent on Nugent and Vassell as I do not think there are any other players in the squad that can play in those roles. Gallagher can but he lacks pace and I think Dyer is more of an orthodox winger. Its an area that Sven needs to strengthen in January.

Do you really think Vassell stilll offers pace and width? To be honest I don't think he offers either. I do agree, however, that Sven will try to play 4-4-3 again when he has a fulll squad. I think he's still trying to get the players to fit his desired system, instead of looking at the squad he's assembled and trying to decide which formation is best for us.

Back to topic, I don't see what Danns is offering at the minute and I'm not really sure why we bought him. Mind you, playing him out of position in every game has hardly helped the lad.

[Kitchandro]

People were slating 4-3-3 earlier in the season because we were simply not playing well. I think 4-3-3 with a front line of Nugent and Vassell as wide forwards and Beckford down the middle would give teams problems. Vassell could offer width and pace and Nugent could push right up and support Beckford. That would also allow us, as others have already said, to get the best out of the 3 central midfielders. I honestly think that when everyone is fit Sven will revert to this system.

However, I think the 4-3-3 is almost completely dependent on Nugent and Vassell as I do not think there are any other players in the squad that can play in those roles. Gallagher can but he lacks pace and I think Dyer is more of an orthodox winger. Its an area that Sven needs to strengthen in January.

People slate 4-3-3 because we don't have the players for it. Schlupp and Vassell can't play wide, Nugent may be able to but I think his strengths are more suited to a central role where he's done well so far.

If Sven was so desperate to play 4-3-3 he should have bought at least one quick attacking winger in the summer. He didn't do so, so playing 4-3-3 should be out of the question. As you say, he needs to get this in January, but until then 4-3-3 won't work.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Certainly King and Wellens, appear to be having a lacklustre season, and probably deserve to be dropped, but not sold. Danns has been unlucky to be dropped, as he appears to be a fine player.

[SpartakAnj]

Do you really think Vassell stilll offers pace and width? To be honest I don't think he offers either. I do agree, however, that Sven will try to play 4-4-3 again when he has a fulll squad. I think he's still trying to get the players to fit his desired system, instead of looking at the squad he's assembled and trying to decide which formation is best for us.

Back to topic, I don't see what Danns is offering at the minute and I'm not really sure why we bought him. Mind you, playing him out of position in every game has hardly helped the lad.

Vassell offers more pace and width than anyone else in the squad! I agree though that he is not my ideal choice to be part of a 3 pronged forward line.

The reason Sven has reverted to the 4-4-2 diamond is precisely because, with the players available to him so far this season, this is the most effective system. But I do not think 4-4-2 is not sustainable for the entire season with the midfielders we currently have in the squad. A 4-3-3 system will get the best out of Danns, King, Johnson etc...

When Beckford Nugent and Vassell are all available he will go back to his preferred 4-3-3.

[Guest]

Danns should start.

Sure he makes a couple of errors each match but his motor is great and the good outweighs the bad.

[SpartakAnj]

People slate 4-3-3 because we don't have the players for it. Schlupp and Vassell can't play wide, Nugent may be able to but I think his strengths are more suited to a central role where he's done well so far.

If Sven was so desperate to play 4-3-3 he should have bought at least one quick attacking winger in the summer. He didn't do so, so playing 4-3-3 should be out of the question. As you say, he needs to get this in January, but until then 4-3-3 won't work.

I agree Sven should have brought in at least one player that offers more width and pace but you dont actually need an orthodox winger to play 4-3-3. For example, if he does use Nugent in one of the wider positions I think he will be deployed on the left, told to cut inside and get up in support of Beckford. Vassell would play on the right and stay wider to try and create more space for the midfield players to operate in. Players like Danns and King can then play their more natural games in midfield by making late runs from deep and therefore be more of a goal threat.

The man playing the holding role (Wellens/Abe/Fernandes) would then have to protect the back four and particularly the left back when Nugent roams inside. As others have said I think Fernandes is best suited for this role. I would like to see Johnson pull the strings in central midfield with one of King or Danns breaking from deep to support Beckford and Nugent.

[Kitchandro]

I agree Sven should have brought in at least one player that offers more width and pace but you dont actually need an orthodox winger to play 4-3-3. For example, if he does use Nugent in one of the wider positions I think he will be deployed on the left, told to cut inside and get up in support of Beckford. Vassell would play on the right and stay wider to try and create more space for the midfield players to operate in. Players like Danns and King can then play their more natural games in midfield by making late runs from deep and therefore be more of a goal threat.

The man playing the holding role (Wellens/Abe/Fernandes) would then have to protect the back four and particularly the left back when Nugent roams inside. As others have said I think Fernandes is best suited for this role. I would like to see Johnson pull the strings in central midfield with one of King or Danns breaking from deep to support Beckford and Nugent.

Sorry but we've tried Vassell on the wing for over a year now and he's been shit there. In fact I'm struggling to remember one good performance out there, his best games have all been playing him down the centre. I don't think he's good enough for the starting line-up anyway, yes he's got pace but very little else, his end product is appalling.

You don't NEED an orthodox winger to play 4-3-3, you could play square pegs in round holes, like crap clubs do with no money. But that's shit, we are not a crap club with no money and we have the means to get players who are most suited to certain positions. I'm tired of these makeshift wide men, Vassell, Danns, Schlupp - it's rubbish. Nugent may well be able to manage out there but why should get players to manage when we could have bought a player who relishes picking the ball up, skinning someone and whipping a cross in for people like Nugent to convert?

I'd rather stick with 4-4-2 and at least have players in their proper positions, then tell them to get their arses in gear and do something with the ball. It's not ideal because as we both agree we could do with a winger so we can play 4-3-3, which I think would suit our midfield more as you say, but for now, I'd rather have no wingers than players pretending to be wingers.

[Jollie]

I don't think Wellens or King are doing enough at the moment to warrant a place in the team. That's not to say they aren't good players, but they aren't in form at the moment for whatever reason.

The problem is actually, despite this idea we have strength in depth, that we don't have anyone who is screaming 'you've got to pick me instead'. I probably would like to Danns to come in to shake things up a bit, but whilst he is a good player, he's also not really done much so far, the Forest game aside. Despite being one of our only midfielders with pace, he hasn't had the guts to beat anyone enough, much like Dyer and Vassell.

Moussa has looked decent from what I've seen but there is a question mark whether he's upto challenging for a spot and Oakley would be a step backwards. The best midfielder so far has been Fernandes and even he's had as many poor games as very good ones.

As for King, he may well be class in terms of technical ability, vision and goalscoring - however he's showing none of these qualities at the moment and even last season he wasn't showing his potential on a regular basis (apart from goals). But whilst he was priceless for us then, he's expendable now because he is lacking his main strength at the moment. It is generally true that when he's not scoring he's not doing anything. And no it's not because I'm not watching close enough, he doesn't chase or close down much, can't tackle and despite having real quality on the ball he too often shifts responsibility to another teammate instead of turning when recieving the ball and trying to make something happen. Even on the rare occassions when he does try to do something with it, he is still too lightweight and tackled easily. And no it's not because he's being played out of position either, he's being played very much in position.

I don't wish we'd sold King at all but I wouldn't complain if he was dropped to give him a kick up the arse, then again he was dropped at Barnsley, came on and scored but has faded into anonymity again. He needs to be performing far better as do the other midfielders.

If I could have been arsed to write all this I would have. I totally agree. When Wellens and King played shit for 10 games last season we went from pushing for the play offs to 12th. Tell Fernandes to stand still for 5 seconds, use Abe to chase the ball like he did against Man City and use Johnson and Danns to get the ball out of midfield!