Legalise cannabis?

[samlcfc]

16 hours ago, Vacamion said:

 

When I used to smoke marijuana regularly, the stuff I bought got stronger and stronger between the late 90s and the early 2010s.

 

It got to the stage where all I wanted a mild hazy relaxing giggle, but ended up with super-cheese, with nicknames like the strains mentioned in the Ted movies.

 

People I was smoking weed with were smoking similar stuff and occasionally one of them would end up with a massive "whitey", or crippling paranoia - both conditions were thankfully temporary.

 

This happened far, far more towards the end of my smoking "career" than it ever did back in the olden days.

 

As with alcohol, cannabis prohibition leads to illegal production at maximum potency, for maximum profit. 

 

Quality of product and the effect on the user doesn't come into it.  Sellers bulk up baggies with Spice and other awful stuff.

 

An end to prohibition would allow "craft weed" to be sold, quality controlled and monitored.

 

Back to mellow experiences, not headbanging super-strains.

 

Brown ale, instead of absinthe.

 

That has to be a good thing, doesn't it?

 

Not if you are HM Government, apparently...

Quality control would be a fantastic benefit of legalisation. I didn't experience the change that you did when I used to smoke, although can definitely concur that the modern product was often horrendously strong. There were times when I wouldn't smoke what I'd bought due to the feeling it gave. Can't tell what has been done with it before it reaches the consumer.

 

I've recently read a little about the industry in the states and the dispensaries sound great. All sorts of different products and a bunch of people that can talk you through what might best suit the occasion. Control over what you're ingesting is certainly something worth paying more than street price for, and I'd have no problem handing over the extra cash in this respect if I still smoked. Saying that, they also offer edibles etc, which I'd imagine is much healthier than smoking the stuff!

 

Withholding the above, I'd even be happy spending the extra money just knowing that the tax part could be usefully applied somewhere. I'm not too well versed on what people argue for the use of any prospective tax money, but the point stands whether it be spent generally or on resolving related issues such as substance abuse and education in this respect.

Edited 20 June 2018 by samlcfc
to - too

[Vacamion]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

How will it be harder for kids to get marijuana after its legalised?

 

I am shocked that you even have to ask this.

 

If the primary sales channel (as it is now in the UK) is a free for all of organised criminal elements, the age of their customers is not high on the list of priorities and kids can buy it as easily as adults.

 

If, however, only age verified adults can buy it from regulated outlets, this takes business away from the criminals, making the criminal supply channels less worthwhile and less prevalent, thus reducing availability to children.

 

Legalisation, hand in-hand with a crackdown on the illegal channels, is the obvious solution.

 

 

[Webbo]

13 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

 

I am shocked that you even have to ask this.

 

If the primary sales channel (as it is now in the UK) is a free for all of organised criminal elements, the age of their customers is not high on the list of priorities and kids can buy it as easily as adults.

 

If, however, only age verified adults can buy it from regulated outlets, this takes business away from the criminals, making the criminal supply channels less worthwhile and less prevalent, thus reducing availability to children.

 

Legalisation, hand in-hand with a crackdown on the illegal channels, is the obvious solution.

 

 

Cigarettes are legal and sold through regulated outlets. I seem to remember it was quite easy to get hold of them when I was a kid.

 

it's good to know that criminals will act ethically after its legalised and stop earning easy money selling to kids though.

[Carl the Llama]

19 minutes ago, Webbo said:

How will it be harder for kids to get marijuana after its legalised?

When you drastically lower the black market dealers' potential audience by legalising access for most of their customers then you have to imagine that the dealer population will take a significant hit... It's true that there'll be those who buy legal cannabis to sell on to kids but if your argument is that there will be no change whatsoever in the take-up rate amongst underage kids then surely you'd at least prefer society to benefit from some of that money being spent?  I don't understand your angle here.

[Webbo]

Just now, Carl the Llama said:

When you drastically lower the black market dealers' potential audience by legalising access for most of their customers then you have to imagine that the dealer population will take a significant hit... It's true that there'll be those who buy legal cannabis to sell on to kids but if your argument is that there will be no change whatsoever in the take-up rate amongst underage kids then surely you'd at least prefer society to benefit from some of that money being spent?  I don't understand your angle here.

I would say that it criminals lose their market selling to adults (I don't believe that will happen btw) then they're going to have to target children more. Normalising  something and making it more morally acceptable won't make people less likely to indulge.

[Izzy]

I used to smoke canabis a long time ago. The issue I had was the ‘strength’ always seemed to vary and I occasionally suffered big time from paranoia so ended up stopping.

 

I take a lot of painkillers for my health issues and I’m addicted to codeine if I’m honest. A lot of people I know who suffer with my condition smoke cannabis instead and it’s widely used to calm our symptoms.

 

If I could buy it legally knowing the strength wouldn’t freak me out then I’d buy it in a heartbeat and use it instead of prescription painkillers.

[Vacamion]

Just now, Webbo said:

Cigarettes are legal and sold through regulated outlets. I seem to remember it was quite easy to get hold of them when I was a kid.

 

it's good to know that criminals will act ethically after its legalised and stop earning easy money selling to kids.

 

You are now deliberately misrepresenting my point.

 

Please point out to me where I said that criminals would become more ethical.

 

It's because they are so unethical that kids can so freely obtain it now.

 

My point was that a regulated cannabis market selling to age-verified adults would out-compete the current criminal sector, shrinking it massively.

 

How do customers want to buy their weed?  A lottery of strength and quality from Mr Big? Or a Colorado style regulated market, with supply you can rely on?

 

I'll give you a clue.  It's the second one.

 

And your point based on "when I was a lad" can be safely dismissed. 

 

Have you seen the high penalties, local authority stings with secret child shoppers, verify over 25,  etc. stuff that goes on nowadays?

 

It is massively harder for kids to buy "for adult" products these days.

 

Legalisation, age verification in shops, similar youth protection measures to those currently used for alcohol and tobacco. 

 

All of this would reduce access to cannabis for kids and keep them safer.

 

It would prevent youngsters being harmed by super skunks currently sold to them.

 

But you don't want to hear that.

 

You just want to keep prohibition because, "Drugs are BAD, mmmkay?"

 

Sheesh.

 

 

 

 

 

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Vacamion said:

 

You are now deliberately misrepresenting my point.

 

Please point out to me where I said that criminals would become more ethical.

 

It's because they are so unethical that kids can so freely obtain it now.

 

My point was that a regulated cannabis market selling to age-verified adults would out-compete the current criminal sector, shrinking it massively.

 

How do customers want to buy their weed?  A lottery of strength and quality from Mr Big? Or a Colorado style regulated market, with supply you can rely on?

 

I'll give you a clue.  It's the second one.

 

And your point based on "when I was a lad" can be safely dismissed. 

 

Have you seen the high penalties, local authority stings with secret child shoppers, verify over 25,  etc. stuff that goes on nowadays?

 

It is massively harder for kids to buy "for adult" products these days.

 

Legalisation, age verification in shops, similar youth protection measures to those currently used for alcohol and tobacco. 

 

All of this would reduce access to cannabis for kids and keep them safer.

 

It would prevent youngsters being harmed by super skunks currently sold to them.

 

But you don't want to hear that.

 

You just want to keep prohibition because, "Drugs are BAD, mmmkay?"

 

Sheesh.

 

 

 

 

 

there were penalties for selling cigarette back then too. 

 

criminals act criminally. If regulated outlets are selling low strength stuff, they'll sell high strength stuff. If the regulated outlets are selling stuff with tax on it, the crooks will undercut them. Legalizing will make it easier for crooks to operate because it will give them a legitimate reason to be in possesion. How easy is it to differentiate between legal and illegal drugs?

[Innovindil]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

there were penalties for selling cigarette back then too. 

 

criminals act criminally. If regulated outlets are selling low strength stuff, they'll sell high strength stuff. If the regulated outlets are selling stuff with tax on it, the crooks will undercut them. Legalizing will make it easier for crooks to operate because it will give them a legitimate reason to be in possesion. How easy is it to differentiate between legal and illegal drugs?

You are working under the assumption that a majority of people would choose illegal high strength skunk over legalised recreational weed. This is and has been shown where it has been legalised, false. 

 

Crooks would be hard sodding pressed to undercut mass produced recreational weed. 

 

If a copper can't tell the difference between a high strength skunk and a government approved weed at a casual glance then they don't deserve to be a copper. 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

9 minutes ago, Webbo said:

there were penalties for selling cigarette back then too. 

 

criminals act criminally. If regulated outlets are selling low strength stuff, they'll sell high strength stuff. If the regulated outlets are selling stuff with tax on it, the crooks will undercut them. Legalizing will make it easier for crooks to operate because it will give them a legitimate reason to be in possesion. How easy is it to differentiate between legal and illegal drugs?

I think you're underestimating the convenience of popping down to a shop for some weed.  Meeting dealers is a ballache

 

And by that logic, wouldnt people be selling dodgy illegal 99.9% alcohol which all the serious drinkers would buy?

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Innovindil said:

 

 

If a copper can't tell the difference between a high strength skunk and a government approved weed at a casual glance then they don't deserve to be a copper. 

What, just by looking at it?

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

I think you're underestimating the convenience of popping down to a shop for some weed.  Meeting dealers is a ballache

 

And by that logic, wouldnt people be selling dodgy illegal 99.9% alcohol which all the serious drinkers would buy?

People do sell illegal alcohol.

 

If nobody wants skunk why do they buy it?

 

[Vacamion]

8 minutes ago, Webbo said:

there were penalties for selling cigarette back then too. 

"Back then" is long gone.  I stand by my point that it is now massively harder for kids to buy cigs and booze than it used to be, because much more is done to prevent it.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Webbo said:

criminals act criminally. If regulated outlets are selling low strength stuff, they'll sell high strength stuff. If the regulated outlets are selling stuff with tax on it, the crooks will undercut them. Legalizing will make it easier for crooks to operate because it will give them a legitimate reason to be in possesion. How easy is it to differentiate between legal and illegal drugs?

 

Most users don't want the high strength stuff.  When I go to the pub, I buy a pint of ale, not a pint of Voddy.

 

The evidence from Colorado, Washington and Uruguay is that the criminals generally move away from weed and on to other more profitable stuff when you steal their market.

 

[thebartonfox]

24 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I used to smoke canabis a long time ago. The issue I had was the ‘strength’ always seemed to vary and I occasionally suffered big time from paranoia so ended up stopping.

 

I take a lot of painkillers for my health issues and I’m addicted to codeine if I’m honest. A lot of people I know who suffer with my condition smoke cannabis instead and it’s widely used to calm our symptoms.

 

If I could buy it legally knowing the strength wouldn’t freak me out then I’d buy it in a heartbeat and use it instead of prescription painkillers.

Might improve the quality of the joke thread if you're back in the giggle bush too?

[Webbo]

Just now, Vacamion said:

"Back then" is long gone.  I stand by my point that it is now massively harder for kids to buy cigs and booze than it used to be, because much more is done to prevent it.

 

 

 

Most users don't want the high strength stuff.  When I go to the pub, I buy a pint of ale, not a pint of Voddy.

 

The evidence from Colorado, Washington and Uruguay is that the criminals generally move away from weed and on to other more profitable stuff when you steal their market.

 

I'd like to see that evidence and not from a pro legalisation source.

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, Webbo said:

I would say that it criminals lose their market selling to adults (I don't believe that will happen btw) then they're going to have to target children more. Normalising  something and making it more morally acceptable won't make people less likely to indulge.

You're going to have to clarify that for me because to me that reads as though you don't believe black market dealers would lose out to a legal, regulated system.  What makes you think that?

 

As for targeting kids, that's my point, they'd have to do that.  But the thing about being a shark in a smaller tank is it's much easier for the authorities to spot and apprehend you.  That's not even mentioning the Netherlands where if we applied your logic we would expect their kids to have the highest rates of cannabis use in Europe.  They don't.

 

12 minutes ago, Webbo said:

there were penalties for selling cigarette back then too. 

 

criminals act criminally. If regulated outlets are selling low strength stuff, they'll sell high strength stuff. If the regulated outlets are selling stuff with tax on it, the crooks will undercut them. Legalizing will make it easier for crooks to operate because it will give them a legitimate reason to be in possesion. How easy is it to differentiate between legal and illegal drugs?

Ok this kind of answers my above question.  Go to the Netherlands and test that theory about dealers slinging low tax, high potency alternatives. I know I've never met one while over there. 

 

As for the highly potent strains: I don't agree that they'll disappear off the market because there will obviously still be an audience for them but speaking as someone who dabbles I would absolute jump at the chance to choose a more mellow strain instead of having to accept whatever lucky dip hydroponics my dealer has that week.

[Buce]

[Vacamion]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

I'd like to see that evidence and not from a pro legalisation source.

 

There is ample evidence if you came bothered looking.  It's not a leap into the unknown. Other places have been there done it and it has paid off.

 

Of course you have only ever used arguments which are supported by peer reviewed evidence in your suggestions about how criminals operate via a vis children, how the market will adjust, what strength of products people want.

[Nick]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

How will it be harder for kids to get marijuana after its legalised?

Because dealers will go out of business as the market will become open, widespread and regulated - younger people will need to obtain from licensed premises and will need proof of age, possibly citizenship with official ID. 

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Swan Lesta said:

Because dealers will go out of business as the market will become open, widespread and regulated - younger people will need to obtain from licensed premises and will need proof of age, possibly citizenship with official ID. 

Read on, I've already answered that.

[Nick]

10 minutes ago, Webbo said:

People do sell illegal alcohol.

 

If nobody wants skunk why do they buy it?

 

Lack of options - I know lots of daily smokers who can't stand the stuff and struggle to get old skool normal strength cannabis and take risks such as growing, which they wouldn't normally do if they could readily purchase either hash or homegrown style Thai weed like in other countries where possession of small amounts has been decriminalised.

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, Webbo said:

Read on, I've already answered that.

With flawed logic though.  I mean if all legitimising an industry achieves is to create an even better black market of tax-free, high quality goods then why aren't we all buying designer clothes and avocadoes from a guy named Baz in an alley somewhere? 

[Webbo]

6 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

 

There is ample evidence if you came bothered looking.  It's not a leap into the unknown. Other places have been there done it and it has paid off.

 

Of course you have only ever used arguments which are supported by peer reviewed evidence in your suggestions about how criminals operate via a vis children, how the market will adjust, what strength of products people want.

Where's there's profit, someone will exploit it, that's human nature. I don't need any evidence for that.

[leicsmac]

Tell me...when was the last time someone - anyone on here, in fact - saw someone selling black market alcohol or smokes to kids on any large scale?

 

The undercutting argument doesn't hold water - not in the UK, anyhow.

[Nick]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Read on, I've already answered that.

You've given an answer based on supposition buddy. The evidence from around the globe suggests otherwise.