Woolwich

[ADK]

The article points out that people in Afghanistan have suffered atrocities too. We're not the only victim here. Think of the innocent people who are killed by misplaced bombs and bullets. It's not deliberate but you can hardly blame them for being angry. Of course that doesn't justify the events we have seen recently but it does explain why these people have a motive to act in the way they do.

 

I think the article goes too far in labelling the actions of coalition forces as 'terrorism' because the casualties to civilians we cause are not on purpose. None the less we cannot ignore the impact we are having.

 

I don't like the suggestion that servicemen not on active duty are fair game for being attacked in the street. The article seems to suggest we should regard the attack differently because the man was targetted for being a soldier. To me a soldier at home is just another member of society.

 

I don't like the equating of civilians being killed accidentally with deliberate attacks on civilians as if the two are both equally wrong.

[anotherharboroughfox]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-terrorism-blowback

 

While I agree with some of the points in that article, death is not a competition. 

 

[Harry - LCFC]

I don't like the suggestion that servicemen not on active duty are fair game for being attacked in the street. The article seems to suggest we should regard the attack differently because the man was targetted for being a soldier. To me a soldier at home is just another member of society.

 

I don't like the equating of civilians being killed accidentally with deliberate attacks on civilians as if the two are both equally wrong.

 

I don't fully agree with the article I have to say. Calling accidental deaths 'terrorism' definitely oversteps the mark, that particularly aspect among others isn't correct. But these people have to have motive to carry out these attacks on civilians, our actions in the middle east have probably given them this motive.

 

If we pulled out of Afghanistan perhaps Islamism would be less prevalent.

[z-layrex]

I don't fully agree with the article I have to say. Calling accidental deaths 'terrorism' definitely oversteps the mark, that particularly aspect among others isn't correct. But these people have to have motive to carry out these attacks on civilians, our actions in the middle east have probably given them this motive.

If we pulled out of Afghanistan perhaps Islamism would be less prevalent.

lol

Are you ****ing serious? So giving the country back to the taliban will give Islamists less power?

[Captain...]

Like I said, in my opinion. There is clear footage of these two blokes, one almost giving a tv interview literally seconds after after butchering another human being. They then have the audacity to stand thete crowing about it whilst casually waiting for the police to arrive.

The 7/7 attacks were carried out by faceless people who died carrying out the blasts so were not able to crow about it in the chilling manner that these two did yesterday.

I really find this far more disturbing than 7/7, however bad 7/7 was.

 

 

Me too, it is shocking, deliberate and brutal, 7/7 was horrendous, but nothing we hadn't seen before with the IRA, and there was no real aftermath, London just got on with things. There were no youtube videos, and no sentences or trials. This is shocking, not that someone was killed, but the brutal and brazen way it was done is just chilling.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-terrorism-blowback

 

Interesting view point, not sure I agree with it, but I can see where it is coming from, it would mean they would need to be treated as POWs rather than murderers, the boundaries are blurring around modern warfare, and when the war is against abstract nouns the combatants don't wear uniforms.

 

I don't like the suggestion that servicemen not on active duty are fair game for being attacked in the street. The article seems to suggest we should regard the attack differently because the man was targetted for being a soldier. To me a soldier at home is just another member of society.

 

I don't like the equating of civilians being killed accidentally with deliberate attacks on civilians as if the two are both equally wrong.

 

But that is a large point of it, in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, they have legalised killing soldiers, sorry people of military age, who are not on active duty, not wearing uniforms and not posing a threat at that time (ie sleeping). If what they did is terrorism, then it is easy to see how you could equate that with what we are doing on their soil.

 

Look at this way, if we treat this as part of the "war on terror", and we see it is the people we are waging war on killing a military target on our soil, that is one military death of an off duty soldier in the UK.

 

In Iraq there are reported to have been between 112,737 - 123,366 civilian deaths on Iraq soil, it is not justification for what they did, but you can see the disparity, and how easy it could be to convince fundamentalists that actually we (the west) are in the wrong, we are the terrorists, we invaded and attacked Muslim countries and killed hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya. These people are being radicalised and we (the west) have provided the ammunition needed to radicalise these Muslims to convince them that they are right in committing atrocities like this and others. 1 death of an off duty soldier has caused a huge stir, imagine if it was 100,000 dead civilians.

 

I am not justifying it, or trying to legitimise what they did, and they deserve everything they get, but this is a direct result of our foreign policy including Blair's lies on Iraq and it is only thanks to our security forces that we have not suffered further atrocities on our soil, and Blair et al have to take responsibility for this.

[Captain...]

lol

Are you ****ing serious? So giving the country back to the taliban will give Islamists less power?

 

But it would be much harder to radicalise Muslims to make attacks such as this, 7/7, 9/11 Madrid bombings, if they weren't able to portray the west as the bad guys in all of this.

[Harry - LCFC]

lol

Are you ****ing serious? So giving the country back to the taliban will give Islamists less power?

 

I don't think it's a question of power, it takes very little effort to do what that man did today. You don't need to control a country to do that, same goes for other terrorist attacks - they're not major operations.

 

But think, why do they hate us? Because we interfere with what they view as theirs. In the long term if we distanced ourselves they'd have less reason to despise the 'heartless murderers' in the west.

[Mack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7cmijwvpD4

 

Any thoughts on this?

[The Year Of The Fox]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7cmijwvpD4

 

Any thoughts on this?

I've watched it up to 8mins and it's hard to disagree with anything he's saying. Especially about being unable to defeat the enemy if you're unable to even name them. And again, he's right in saying that the decent Muslims really need to stand up and be counted.

Anyway, I wonder how many people will dismiss what is said in the video because of who he is?!

The only thing I thought was daft with the EDL the other night was that they started attacking our police force.

[The Year Of The Fox]

http://m.facebook.com/video_redirect/?src=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhvideo-ak-ash3%2Fv%2F760808_10151925110239535_274556648_n.mp4%3Foh%3D7b360dc4d5ee312703288cc3b4fa8e78%26oe%3D519F217B%26__gda__%3D1369384247_136c955bb2c82c401ba50a047bb7f636&_mn_=10&refid=52

Cameron should take a leaf out of this blokes book

[Mack]

I've watched it up to 8mins and it's hard to disagree with anything he's saying. Especially about being unable to defeat the enemy if you're unable to even name them. And again, he's right in saying that the decent Muslims really need to stand up and be counted.

Anyway, I wonder how many people will dismiss what is said in the video because of who he is?!

The only thing I thought was daft with the EDL the other night was that they started attacking our police force.

 

I have to agree he makes some valid points.

It's a shame it takes such a bigoted organisation to make them.

[Tielemans63]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7cmijwvpD4

Any thoughts on this?

Their best bet would have been to have done what they said they were doing and gone down to London and protested. That way more people would have respected them for swift response and it might have portrayed them as a serious proposition.

Instead, and everyone knew they would, they went down to London because they fancied a bit of bovver and saw this as an excuse. Attacking the police is not going to do anything other than severely harm any credibility that you might have had as the vast majority of the public support the police.

It's a double own goal really as many will see what they did as unpatriotic and they put themselves on a par with left wing loonies they way they attacked the coppers.

[Mack]

Their best bet would have been to have done what they said they were doing and gone down to London and protested. That way people more people would have respected them for swift response and it might have portrayed them as a serious proposition.

Instead, and everyone knew they would, they went down to London because they fancied a bit of bovver and saw this as an excuse. Attacking the police is not going to do anything other than severely harm any credibility that you might have had as the vast majority of the public support the police.

It's a double own goal really as many will see what they did as unpatriotic and they put themselves on a par with left wing loonies they way they attacked the coppers.

 

I agree, their movement is populated by a bunch of egotistic wannabee Football Holigans of the 80's throwbacks that will mean any valid point they make is lost amongst the stupidity of their knuckle dragger supporters.

I would add that this guy speaks well and makes some valid points, however behind that I suspect his is a racist bigoted twat.

[_Fatboyslow_]

I have to agree he makes some valid points.

It's a shame it takes such a bigoted organisation to make them.

But if you try to make the same points you are labeled as a bigot

I have to agree he makes some valid points.

It's a shame it takes such a bigoted organisation to make them.

But if you try to make the same points you are labeled as a bigot

[Steven]

Another false flag

http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/londons-false-flag-even-more-pathetic-than-the-boston-bombing/45141

[Mack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEnMqmk6KmQ

 

I'd been looking for the uncut video for sometime.

You can see why it's been edited for media broadcast, as the murderer makes a lot of Islamic references that could stir up hatred.

[Mack]

Another false flag

http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/londons-false-flag-even-more-pathetic-than-the-boston-bombing/45141

 

Sorry mate but that is a heap of bollocks.

[Mack]

But if you try to make the same points you are labeled as a bigot

 

I think it depends how you put it.

The problem with most people who say such things is that that are young white football hooligan throwback types, and they are stereotyped and dismissed.

[Guest MattP]

Of course anything Robinson says will be dismissed.

Look at the way the whole nation ignored Nick Griffin when he was warning about muslim grooming gangs in the early 90's. Having young girls gang raped is far more acceptable than appearing a bigot.

Fact is we have become a nation that values equality and diversity over righteousness and morality.

Doesn't surprise me one bit the media edited that video either. If they could have put a white face on and get away with it the BBC probably would.

[Mack]

Of course anything Robinson says will be dismissed.

Look at the way the whole nation ignored Nick Griffin when he was warning about muslim grooming gangs in the early 90's. Having young girls gang raped is far more acceptable than appearing a bigot.

Fact is we have become a nation that values equality and diversity over righteousness and morality.

Doesn't surprise me one bit the media edited that video either. If they could have put a white face on and get away with it the BBC probably would.

 

Spot on mate.

[Rincewind]

Equality is not moral?

[Captain...]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7cmijwvpD4

Any thoughts on this?

Very interesting, but too much rhetoric for my liking, he makes some good points, and some I don't agree with, and is clearly knowledgeable on his subject and aware of the facts, but if the EDL want to ever be thought of as anything more than a bunch of thugs then they need to ditch the balaclavas and aggression and violence. The problem is the leader may be able to express his ideals clearly and with thought, but I don't give many of his followers the same credit.

Just as an aside, did anybody get enraged by this and start thinking he was right, we do need to do something, maybe I should get involved, maybe I should go down to Downing Street on monday, enough is enough, maybe the EDL are right?

Does anyone else see parallels between this and "hate preachers" radicalising Muslims to their cause? It is not some magic voodoo they perform, but they release videos, with facts, twisted to suit their views, but facts it is hard to argue with, 100,000 dead civilians in Iraq, Blair's lies, invading force etc. That is all it takes a couple of well worded well researched videos and seeds of doubt are planted. The Government needs to step up here and do something and be seen to do something otherwise more and more people will rally to the EDL, which will in turn radicalise more Muslims.

EDIT: But he is spot on in one regards, we name for what we are fighting, and the war on terror doesn't cut it, to win the war we must have an enemy, and that enemy cannot be Islam.

[Rincewind]

This is what propaganda is. Presenting the same information but worded to suit the aims of the presenters. A few words here and there replaced can convince the gullible. Is the glass half empty or half full?

[Guest MattP]

Equality is not moral?

 

No I don't think it is.

 

I believe people should be allowed to work as hard as they possibly can or pursue causes of what they precieve as good to make themselves unequal.

[Guest MattP]

Very interesting, but too much rhetoric for my liking, he makes some good points, and some I don't agree with, and is clearly knowledgeable on his subject and aware of the facts, but if the EDL want to ever be thought of as anything more than a bunch of thugs then they need to ditch the balaclavas and aggression and violence. The problem is the leader may be able to express his ideals clearly and with thought, but I don't give many of his followers the same credit.

Pointless. I'd stay the street route now.

 

If they start putting on the suits they will just be tarnished by the media as another BNP and recieve slander at every corner even for things they haven't said or done, stay as they are, it could end up being far more effective.