Woolwich

[Guest BlueBrett]

Hypocrisy or what? 

 

I agree with your point, no body wants to see this happen to any person (shouldn't matter whether they are British or not!) but the fact is theres alot of angry morons out there who don't know why they are angry and love a bandwagon if it means an excuse to get in a fight or cause criminal damage (as has happened last night). In my opion, groups like the EDL bring it on themselves by being uninformed and violent!

no not really hypocrisy.  I wasn't suggesting your level of insight could be improved by trawling through pages and pages of FT.  I suppose it depends on the base you are starting from though so if it works for you keep it up 

[breadandcheese]

I think both points are valid - I understand that the press  on this case will be huge because of the way the perps acted after the event.

 

However i think samilktray makes a valid point, especially when the general public are in uproar, mosques are getting attacked, the EDL are out etc. What happened was awful and there are no ways that really explain why it happened, but bad things happen every day to all manner of people and we pay no attention and our lives go on!

 

I think its just about that little bit of perspective and the big picture, especially for those morons wanted to get on the anti Islam, anti foreign people train! If they could think for themselves they may realise this but instead they are mere sheep and don't educate themselves on matters or even think for themselves. In many ways this is how terrorism is born and i don't think it will be long before the likes of the EDL really start to "bite back" but in the end will be just as bad as the terrorists themselves.

 

 

I don't think this has been blown out of perspective at all, and I actually think the government, community leaders and security forces have taken the right approach so far.  This incident was not like the stabbing of the 75 year old muslim due to the sheer brutality and brazenness of it.  Chasing and beheading a man in the street in broad daylight, and then proclaiming it is for Islam, with implications that it is revenge on Britain, whilst then milling around, asking people to take photos and videos, is like nothing seen before.

 

I think the government, fearful of another potential riot situation (like after the shooting of Mark Duggan) have been correct to call together Cobra and show control to deal with any aftermath, be that heightened threat of terror (which looks unlikely) or civil disobedience.  

 

I think the Muslim Council of Britain have done a good job putting out an unequivocal and strong statement.  It's a shame they have to, but these murderers have committed their act claiming it is in their name, so they have to send out a message and disassociate themselves from it.  It must be a pain in the *rse if you're a Muslim, having to justify that you don't support barbaric animals, but that's the unfortunate situation when somebody acts claiming it is in your name.

 

All in all, it may seem like being blown out of proportion, but this is the first time we've seen such a shocking act, played out in front of modern media, with the ability it has to stoke up feelings at what has been a massive shock to the country.

[Captain...]

I agree that the brazen nature of their behaviour is shocking. It'll be interesting to know what the hell led them to behave like that. I might be wrong, but it suggests to me that they were a couple of hate-filled nutters working on their own. Surely, anyone carrying out such acts for an extreme organisation (a) would seek to kill more than 1 person; (b) would seek to die or escape.

 

Samilktray does make an important point, though, asking why people didn't respond in the same way when an apparently innocent 75-year-old Muslim man was murdered in cold blood, stabbed in the back by a young white man. Was there the same media coverage and public outrage? Did militant Muslim organisations blame whites in general and march on their institutions?

 

Whites in general shouldn't be blamed for 1 White nutter/extremist murdering an old Muslim man - and Muslims in general shouldn't be blamed for 2 Muslim nutters/extremists murdering a young white man.

 

The murderous individuals concerned should be dealt with under the law and we should seek to understand what led them to behave as they did, so that it can be addressed. Fueling hostility between different groups will lead to more such atrocities, not fewer.

 

 

Speculation in the metro was that they were radicalised on the internet to commit such acts, and what they did was done in such a way to make a clear point and get as much exposure as possible. This was not a racially motivated attack in the dark with no witnesses, it was an attack in broad daylight that was done to serve as a warning to everyone else. We are playing into their hands by making such a big deal out of it in the media.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Speculation in the metro was that they were radicalised on the internet to commit such acts, and what they did was done in such a way to make a clear point and get as much exposure as possible. This was not a racially motivated attack in the dark with no witnesses, it was an attack in broad daylight that was done to serve as a warning to everyone else. We are playing into their hands by making such a big deal out of it in the media.

 

Nail. Head. It is exactly what they wanted. Sadly, they have been successful and British society (in general) has played straight into their hands, dividing communities and driving wedges into wounds that might have healed. Essentially, it was a dare, a provocation, a "bring it on!" chant. It was a WUM of the most terrible kind and all over the country there's people biting. Today I've heard and seen all the closet racists come out of the cupboard, when the fact that they were black means nothing and the fact that they were Muslims meant little... EXCEPT that they WANTED everyone to know this. To cause enmity and fragment society, much as it is in the countries they claim to represent. I don't think it's any coincidence that they did this after Afghani interpreters were given the right to live here after helping British troops against the Taliban. People being able to accept one another and work together despite cultural differences is the last thing that they want. And when I say "they" I mean radicalised extremist Muslims... not black people or Muslims in general.

 

I also found myself wondering today if there would have been such an outcry from groups such as the EDL if they had killed a black British soldier? Obviously they wouldn't have - they knew what they were doing as my previous paragraph suggests - but I can't help but think that it would be a different case entirely as far as they were concerned, despite essentially the same attrocity being carried out.

[Guest MattP]

Awful, really is

 

Whilst it's good to see condemnation from various Islamic Groups over yesterday's incident, we need to see more the whole community to tackle this.

No doubt these people will have been 'radicalised' in some sort of Islamic centre be it a Mosque or otherwise by the sort of preacher we have seen all too often on Dispatches/Panorama etc over the last few years. There are still 'Sharia Law in place here' stickers up in Tower Hamlets that have been stuck there for months with no one taking them down.

The only people who can stop that and weed it out is the regulars who go to these places, without that it's an absolutely impossible task.

Speculation in the metro was that they were radicalised on the internet to commit such acts, and what they did was done in such a way to make a clear point and get as much exposure as possible. This was not a racially motivated attack in the dark with no witnesses, it was an attack in broad daylight that was done to serve as a warning to everyone else. We are playing into their hands by making such a big deal out of it in the media.

 

Agree with that totally.

[Guest]

I'm beginning to think I've got El Empty on my facebook timeline with the conspiracy theories about this now appearing

[Trav Le Bleu]

I'm beginning to think I've got El Empty on my facebook timeline with the conspiracy theories about this now appearing

 

How do you know you haven't?

[MikeyT]

http://news.sky.com/story/1094804/woolwich-terror-attack-soldier-named

 

 

The soldier murdered in a terrorist attack near a military barracks in Woolwich has been named as Drummer Lee Rigby.

The 25-year-old, of 2nd Batallion the Royal Regiment of Fusilliers, was killed in front of shocked onlookers.

Witnesses said he was attacked by two men with a number of weapons, including knives and a meat cleaver, while they shouted the name of "Allah".

Defence Secretary Philip Hammond said everyone had been "shocked and saddened" by Drummer Rigby's death.

"This was a senseless murder of a soldier who has served the army faithfully in a variety of roles including operational tours in Afghanistan," he said.

"Our thoughts today are with his family and loved ones who are trying to come to terms with this terrible loss."

Sky News understands Drummer Rigby, from Manchester, had served two tours in Afghanistan, the latest of which was in 2009.

His batallion is currently training in Cyprus but he was on attachment to the London headquarters as a recruiter.

General Sir David Richards, chief of defence staff, said: "Our first thoughts are with the soldier's family and close friends.

"It's always a tragedy but it's particularly poignant that it happened on the streets of our capital city."

One of the suspects in the murder of Drummer Rigby has been identified as Michael Adeboloja, a 28-year-old Londoner of Nigerian descent.

He and another man are being held under armed guard at separate hospitals in London.

They were both known to the security services but were assessed by MI5 as not posing a threat requiring "immediate intervention", Government sources said.

Police investigating the attack have been searching a flat in Greenwich and a house in Lincolnshire, believed to be connected to Adeboloja.

Witness accounts have continued to emerge about the moment terror returned to the streets of London.

One passer-by filmed Adeboloja holding a bloodied meat cleaver and saying: "We must fight them as they fight us. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."

"I apologise that women have had to witness this today but in our land our women have to see the same," he added. "You people will never be safe. Remove your government, they don't care about you."

Ingrid Loyau-Kenned, a cub scout leader and mother-of-two, recalled the moment she confronted the alleged attackers and warned them: "You are going to lose."

Another witness, identified as James Heneghan, said the soldier had been attacked with kitchen knives like he was "a piece of meat".

"They were hacking at this poor guy, literally," he told LBC radio.

Meanwile, Prime Minister David Cameron chaired a second emergency meeting of the Government's Cobra committee.

Speaking afterwards, he said: "The people who did this were trying to divide us. They should know something like this will only bring us together and make us stronger.

"One of the best ways of defeating terrorism is to go about our normal lives."

Elsewhere, the Muslim Council of Britain said it had received "reports of hate attacks and abuse faced by mosques and individual Muslims following the inexcusable and criminal murder".

The group called for solidarity between "all our communities, Muslim and non-Muslim".

Riot police had to contain an English Defence League demonstration in Woolwich, while two mosques were attacked.

More follows...

[breadandcheese]

I'm beginning to think I've got El Empty on my facebook timeline with the conspiracy theories about this now appearing

 

I think this shows how deluded and easy it is for conspiracy theorists to flourish. Not only that, the conspiracy theories are an insult to the poor murder victim and his family.

[Guest MattP]

So many like that on my timeline as well.

 

We'll be a nation of tin foil hat wearers soon. Imagine if we legalise Cannabis.

[The Year Of The Fox]

The videos I've seen are utterly terrifying. The bloke calmly standing there trying to justify what hes done with blood on his hands. It's frightening. A worse atrocity than 7/7 IMO

[The Year Of The Fox]

now the ****ing mps are telling the army not to wear their uniform incase they offend muslims..

JOKE JOKE EJOKE FUCING JKPEKEKJASEFKS:gjksd\FHL:jksDGsADF|HKP

It's not really. Even in the early 2000s it was frowned upon due to the IRA threat

now the ****ing mps are telling the army not to wear their uniform incase they offend muslims..

JOKE JOKE EJOKE FUCING JKPEKEKJASEFKS:gjksd\FHL:jksDGsADF|HKP

It's not really. Even in the early 2000s it was frowned upon due to the IRA threat

[Rincewind]

We were going to mention this on our radio show but were not all aware of the full facts so could not air it. I still do not know. Saw the thread title yesterday and thought it was about the building society. Never saw the news later on and no papers today.

[Fez of Mahrez]

We were going to mention this on our radio show but were not all aware of the full facts so could not air it. I still do not know. Saw the thread title yesterday and thought it was about the building society. Never saw the news later on and no papers today.

Sounds like a wise decision.

[MooseBreath]

 Saw the thread title yesterday and thought it was about the building society.

 

 

what a legend

[theessexfox]

The videos I've seen are utterly terrifying. The bloke calmly standing there trying to justify what hes done with blood on his hands. It's frightening. A worse atrocity than 7/7 IMO

[Wymsey]

A worse atrocity than 7/7 IMO

 

You've made quite a few sensible posts on this forum imo since I returned two weeks back, but this is a comment that you can't beat in terms of controversy and ridiculousness.

[Rincewind]

Sounds like a wise decision.

Yes especially given the radio station is called Panj Pani and goes out to various Indian/Asian communities.

It is not our job to fuel rumours..

TV was off which is why I missed the story and from the first couple of posts here it is obvious some have already tried and convicted an entire community. based on rumours.

[Webbo]

Yes especially given the radio station is called Panj Pani and goes out to various Indian/Asian communities.

It is not our job to fuel rumours..

TV was off which is why I missed the story and from the first couple of posts here it is obvious some have already tried and convicted an entire community. based on rumours.

It's not a rumour, it definitely happened.

[Rincewind]

It's not a rumour, it definitely happened.

 

 

Not saying the event never happened but those responsible. Earlier posts mentioned the ones responsible were from three different countries. There is a lot of assumptions.

[Guest MattP]

You've made quite a few sensible posts on this forum imo since I returned two weeks back, but this is a comment that you can't beat in terms of controversy and ridiculousness.

 

It's wrong but I know what he means in a way, it's made me feel more sick than I did when 7/7 happened. The sheer brutality of it was incredible. This should not happen in Great Britain.

 

 

And Ken if you are going to run a radio show it might be advisable to keep in contact with current events, you can't come on air 5 hours after something like 9/11/ the moon landings or Diana dying and start talking about what's happening at the local tea and coffee afternoon at the village hall.

[Rincewind]

It's wrong but I know what he means in a way, it's made me feel more sick than I did when 7/7 happened. The sheer brutality of it was incredible. This should not happen in Great Britain.

 

 

And Ken if you are going to run a radio show it might be advisable to keep in contact with current events, you can't come on air 5 hours after something like 9/11/ the moon landings or Diana dying and start talking about what's happening at the local tea and coffee afternoon at the village hall.

 

 

Yes true. But TBF I don't think things were much clearer when we were on our way there. Last night I was setting my Kindle up and lost track of the time. Considering having a trial subscription to a newspaper. Not decided which one. Was told today I am up for appraisal after my first 3 months in the job. Been ill for most of the time but I think I'll be OK.

Asked about expenses towards the paper but I will have to wait and see with that. Not got great expectations though so will have to select the right newspaper. Won't be a Tabloid though.

[Matt]

Another thing, they were treated for their wounds from the gunshots...How must the nurses, surgeons, doctors, e.t.c, 'care' for these people? I couldn't I know that.

 

I'd refuse to treat them, I'd say sack me or i'd leave the job if they wouldn't allow me to refuse to treat them.

 

How can anyone 'care' for the people who did this?

[Guest Bilo]

Another thing, they were treated for their wounds from the gunshots...How must the nurses, surgeons, doctors, e.t.c, 'care' for these people? I couldn't I know that.

 

I'd refuse to treat them, I'd say sack me or i'd leave the job if they wouldn't allow me to refuse to treat them.

 

How can anyone 'care' for the people who did this?

 

It does illustrate how our humanity makes us stronger, better human beings.

 

I personally want the pair of them to live to their hundredth birthday, still on lockdown for 23 hours a day with boiling water being thrust in their face for the hour they're allowed out.

 

Death is a prize, a release. Offer them neither. 

[Guest MattP]

Another thing, they were treated for their wounds from the gunshots...How must the nurses, surgeons, doctors, e.t.c, 'care' for these people? I couldn't I know that.

 

I'd refuse to treat them, I'd say sack me or i'd leave the job if they wouldn't allow me to refuse to treat them.

 

How can anyone 'care' for the people who did this?

Personally I'd be injecting them with some AIDS infected blood but each to their own.

It does illustrate how our humanity makes us stronger, better human beings.

 

I personally want the pair of them to live to their hundredth birthday, still on lockdown for 23 hours a day with boiling water being thrust in their face for the hour they're allowed out.

 

Death is a prize, a release. Offer them neither. 

 

I'd agree but in my mind I cant help but feel one day they will be out, that's what we do now and we are only getting more Liberal. Very tough choice for me as if I want them to live and go to prison or have been killed then.

 

Prison isn't Shawshank Redemption anymore anyway, we have seen what they get access to on that Lifers program.