The Royal Baby

[rico]

[Guest MattP]

Come on, Matt, you're a "huge fan" of tradition, but history? Tudor/Stuart religious strife, land enclosure, Cromwell's deposition of the monarchy, German-speaking monarchs, the slave trade, Peterloo, the Chartists, the Great Reform Acts, the rise of trade unions, WW1, the dismantling of the British Empire, mass immigration, EU membership, the miners' strike, the poll tax riots, the 2008 financial meltdown....that's all part of our national history - and history doesn't stand still, which is a lot of its fascination. Some of that change and struggle ends up becoming part of "tradition" and "the constitution", I suppose....

 

 

Absolutely love the history, who wouldn't? So we have done some brutal things, who hasn't?

Live reading about the Tutor and Stuarts and the way we used to fight it out, the middle ages was almost sadistic but it's part of history, why would we be ashamed of that? 90% of people in this country aren't limp wristed weirdos like Ken Livingstone who believe being British means you should be up on a stage crying crocodile tears apologising for the past.

[Alf Bentley]

Come on, Matt, you're a "huge fan" of tradition, but history? Tudor/Stuart religious strife, land enclosure, Cromwell's deposition of the monarchy, German-speaking monarchs, the slave trade, Peterloo, the Chartists, the Great Reform Acts, the rise of trade unions, WW1, the dismantling of the British Empire, mass immigration, EU membership, the miners' strike, the poll tax riots, the 2008 financial meltdown....that's all part of our national history - and history doesn't stand still, which is a lot of its fascination. Some of that change and struggle ends up becoming part of "tradition" and "the constitution", I suppose....

 

 

Absolutely love the history, who wouldn't? So we have done some brutal things, who hasn't?

Live reading about the Tutor and Stuarts and the way we used to fight it out, the middle ages was almost sadistic but it's part of history, why would we be ashamed of that? 90% of people in this country aren't limp wristed weirdos like Ken Livingstone who believe being British means you should be up on a stage crying crocodile tears apologising for the past.

 

I obviously didn't make my point clearly enough. Nothing to do with any aversion to brutality. Indeed, I was saying that a lot of history is about struggle between different groups, and how this establishes, changes and eliminates traditions, while maintaining others. Tradition is static; history is a flow. If tradition is an enormous static boulder, then history is a foaming river surging over that boulder. It may leave some of the boulder in place, may tear bits off, may carve out new gullies or may carry the boulder away completely.....Sorry, I'm in a pretentious mood! My point is your claim to be a "huge fan of history and tradition", when "history" and "tradition" are almost a contradiction in terms.

 

As for Red Ken, I'd prefer "interesting character" to "weirdo", and think we need more interesting characters in politics, not fewer, given the tedious nobodies at the top of all the main parties (part of the reason that Farage is popular is that he is an interesting character, compared to the rest). I don't know in what way you see Ken as "limp wristed". Presumably not in a homophobic sense as he's fathered several children by several women (don't imagine you meant that anyway). He's certainly not shied away from conflict in politics either - quite the contrary. Is it his apology for London's involvement in slavery that makes him "limp-wristed"?

 

If so, I have some sympathy with your view. Politicians apologising for things before their time seems a bit weird to me, too. Tony Blair should apologise for Iraq, not the Irish Potato Famine! Didn't see Ken's actual apology, but I imagine that holding a position like London Mayor must make you think quite deeply about the history of the place...and have people drawing it to your attention. I'd favour recognising the terrible things that have been done in history and feeding that into current policy, rather than apologising for the past deeds of others.

[BoneDog]

Did anyone notice that minutes after the announcement of the birth, the sky went black and we had a hell storm?

 

BEHOLD THE ARMAGEDDON, PEASANTS.

[Rincewind]

Has to be a Damian then.

[Guest MattP]

I obviously didn't make my point clearly enough. Nothing to do with any aversion to brutality. Indeed, I was saying that a lot of history is about struggle between different groups, and how this establishes, changes and eliminates traditions, while maintaining others. Tradition is static; history is a flow. If tradition is an enormous static boulder, then history is a foaming river surging over that boulder. It may leave some of the boulder in place, may tear bits off, may carve out new gullies or may carry the boulder away completely.....Sorry, I'm in a pretentious mood! My point is your claim to be a "huge fan of history and tradition", when "history" and "tradition" are almost a contradiction in terms.

 

As for Red Ken, I'd prefer "interesting character" to "weirdo", and think we need more interesting characters in politics, not fewer, given the tedious nobodies at the top of all the main parties (part of the reason that Farage is popular is that he is an interesting character, compared to the rest). I don't know in what way you see Ken as "limp wristed". Presumably not in a homophobic sense as he's fathered several children by several women (don't imagine you meant that anyway). He's certainly not shied away from conflict in politics either - quite the contrary. Is it his apology for London's involvement in slavery that makes him "limp-wristed"?

 

If so, I have some sympathy with your view. Politicians apologising for things before their time seems a bit weird to me, too. Tony Blair should apologise for Iraq, not the Irish Potato Famine! Didn't see Ken's actual apology, but I imagine that holding a position like London Mayor must make you think quite deeply about the history of the place...and have people drawing it to your attention. I'd favour recognising the terrible things that have been done in history and feeding that into current policy, rather than apologising for the past deeds of others.

 

Weirdo was harsh wasn't it? He does behave like one though after he has had one too many (which from what I gather is quite often), I've got a good friend who works for William Pears in London who donates to the Labour party (you might even know him, Irish, M. Kennedy, Camden) and I went to a fundraiser he had put on with Frank Dobson for the Mayoral bash about 8-9 years, thought he was lord of the manor after a few and quite a few of the women got upset with his constant jokes and "groping".

 

Agree with you about him as a character though, much prefer a politician like him to the Wallace and Gromit style of politics of Red Ed or the seemingley now endless lists of substandard window dressings that have risen through the all women shorlists who you wouldn't put in charge of a church fate.

 

I don't see why anyone now should apologise for London's history, I wouldn't expect an apology going from Rome or the Spanish. I think it brings more negative attention than positive.

[Alf Bentley]

Weirdo was harsh wasn't it? He does behave like one though after he has had one too many (which from what I gather is quite often), I've got a good friend who works for William Pears in London who donates to the Labour party (you might even know him, Irish, M. Kennedy, Camden) and I went to a fundraiser he had put on with Frank Dobson for the Mayoral bash about 8-9 years, thought he was lord of the manor after a few and quite a few of the women got upset with his constant jokes and "groping".

 

Agree with you about him as a character though, much prefer a politician like him to the Wallace and Gromit style of politics of Red Ed or the seemingley now endless lists of substandard window dressings that have risen through the all women shorlists who you wouldn't put in charge of a church fate.

 

I don't see why anyone now should apologise for London's history, I wouldn't expect an apology going from Rome or the Spanish. I think it brings more negative attention than positive.

 

I don't know your mate as my involvement with Labour dates back 15+ years; 25 years (!) since I lived in London.

 

Am in no position to criticise Red Ken for his drunken misconduct as I have a long track record of that myself, though mostly many years ago.

 

I largely agree with your last comment, even regarding more recent events. I wouldn't expect a modern-day German to apologise for the Nazis, just to recognise what happened, learn from it and apply the lessons learned....which I'd say they do. We should do likewise. Though, I suppose there are exceptions where living individuals have been treated illegally (e.g. the old Mau Mau blokes who were tortured by British forces in Kenyan camps in the 1950s, who deserve compensation).

 

It would be good to see politicians occasionally apologise for the misdeeds for which they really are responsible...but we could be waiting a long time for that....

[Jon the Hat]

Ken is more of a massive incompetent twat than a wierdo.

[Rincewind]

Ken is more of a massive incompetent twat than a wierdo.

The labour version of Boris.

[Guest MattP]

I don't know your mate as my involvement with Labour dates back 15+ years; 25 years (!) since I lived in London.

 

Am in no position to criticise Red Ken for his drunken misconduct as I have a long track record of that myself, though mostly many years ago.

 

I largely agree with your last comment, even regarding more recent events. I wouldn't expect a modern-day German to apologise for the Nazis, just to recognise what happened, learn from it and apply the lessons learned....which I'd say they do. We should do likewise. Though, I suppose there are exceptions where living individuals have been treated illegally (e.g. the old Mau Mau blokes who were tortured by British forces in Kenyan camps in the 1950s, who deserve compensation).

 

It would be good to see politicians occasionally apologise for the misdeeds for which they really are responsible...but we could be waiting a long time for that....

 

I they do it to mean it I have no problem, most 'apologies' these days are just trying to curry favour with voters or a section of the public, it's cringeworthy for me.

 

I've had Germans apologise to me for the war, it's very embarrassing. If I'm pissed I usually make instant quip back saying I wish you had won. Always worth it just to see the look on their face.

 

Ken is more of a massive incompetent twat than a wierdo.

 

Probably, was just basing that on what I saw of him personally, harsh though. We can all be weird when drunk.

 

The labour version of Boris.

 

That's absolute bollocks really isn't it.

 

Boris is a proper Tory, loved by his party and can ever take seats even in traditional Labour wards as the London Mayoral elections have shown.

 

Ken is a rabble rouser who most in his own party can't stand, let alone vote for.

[Jon the Hat]

The labour version of Boris.

 

Boris is, behind the bluster, a very competent and intelligent man.  And also a proper Tory, whereas Ken is just a twat.

[Alf Bentley]

Boris is, behind the bluster, a very competent and intelligent man.  And also a proper Tory, whereas Ken is just a twat.

 

Some, including those who lived under the democratically-elected GLC before Thatcher abolished it for becoming the only popular alternative to her regime, might say that Ken is a proper Labour man, whereas....

 

No, that's not a fruitful debate between the likes of us, is it? Let's get back to the baby... I like babies.

May the baby enjoy a happy and stimulating life. Likewise all other babies born yesterday, whether in Braunstone, Henley, Stockholm, Detroit, Moscow or Timbuktu. It's adults that are the problem.

 

Did you see the baby on TV. Nice, chunky little fella, wisp of straw-coloured hair and plenty to say for himself according to William. You don't think Boris is the father, do you?

[21st Century Fox]

Thank Christ it wasn't a girl after all, otherwise she would have only 17 years and 362 days until she could no longer step foot on a beach or step out of a car without a camera up her skirt. Saying that though Murdoch should be dead by then unless "Head in a Jar" technology is perfected in the mean time.

[Harry - LCFC]

Problem here with democracy is about 60% turn out to vote at GC's and 70% probably know nothing about politics, having a elected head of state might sound good but you'll be crying for the Queen back when President Beckham is in the chair in 30 years.

 

I see it as the best form of government as it has an elected house laying the laws and then a sensible body watching over them who they also know they are resposible to, I can't even begin to imagine the pisstake on expenses, wars, etc if people like Blair and Brown or Cameron were a head of state with a licence to do anything and everyhing.

 

I don't believe any royal tradition has become outdated, people love tradition and the monarchy in the last few years is more popular than it has ever been, I hope you really don't believe people would spend 'a few years crying' were it abololished, me and millions of others would see them as our leaders and would be fighting to return them to there righful place and those people will still be fighting for that a long time after me or you are here.

 

No idea how you can't fathom why people from a country that elected George Bush twice and are universally despised wouldn't be jealous of our Monarchy that our universially loved.

One last thing btw, if people think removing the Royals will stop them "being rich" as people have put then actually think about it ffs Kate and Wills could do a 12 month tour of the USA on it's own whilst selling their merchandise as a private company and they would earn more money than they will take out the state in their lifetimes. So it's probably smart we actually take that money into our own coffers rather than not.

 

Admittedly a sensible monarch (and if I’m being balanced I’d have to concede that the current Queen is a fairly good one) can be a good guard against bad government but it requires the right monarch to be in place and there's no guarantee of that - The prospect of someone like Charles on the throne for example.   

 

I was being serious when I said most people would let it go eventually, I get the impression that my generation like the monarchy but don’t truly love it. I doubt that many would fight for it in a hundred years’ time when everyone would’ve grown up without it, no country would opt into such a system in the modern day after all. Difference of opinion here, I'm naturally going to want to see apathy towards the monarchy whereas you'll want to take the opposite view.

 

Also, rightful place? They have a ‘right’ to rule over me do they? I really do scoff at that, no they don’t.

 

I have no issue with people being rich, if Will and Kate use their celebrity to get a bit of cash then fine – I don’t mind a bit of capitalism every now and then. But I do have a big problem accepting the enormous entitlements they enjoy. They aren't superior to the rest of us (although they do have a ‘right’ to rule over me so maybe they are) so why should they be given such riches from the state?

[sphericalfox]

Ken is more of a massive incompetent twat than a wierdo.

 

this is a better alternative? intelligent...competent? Hardly.

[Guest MattP]

You don't want them ruling over you and you don't mind 'a bit of capitalism now and then?"

 

Forgive me if I sound crass but why don't you move? Life is too short to live under rulers that you don't want too, no one forces you to stay.

 

If someone removed the Monarchy, keet infringing on the countryside way of life, put restrictions on things I enjoy like gambling, drinking etc I wouldn't be hanging around for it at all.

[Parafox]

What do you reckon they'll name their sprog?

 

Will it be like the Beckhams and name it after the location of conception?

[Guest MattP]

 

this is a better alternative? intelligent...competent? Hardly.

 

What because he got stuck by a faulty wire?

WTF.

[Alf Bentley]

Thank Christ it wasn't a girl after all, otherwise she would have only 17 years and 362 days until she could no longer step foot on a beach or step out of a car without a camera up her skirt. Saying that though Murdoch should be dead by then unless "Head in a Jar" technology is perfected in the mean time.

 

Murdoch's mother has only just died, aged nearly 104...be scared!

[sphericalfox]

What because he got stuck by a faulty wire?

WTF.

 

That was a selected image, the text I stand by, which wasn't in direct relation to the image. It was the first one that popped up when I googled 'Boris twat'. 

[Guest MattP]

That was a selected image, the text I stand by, which wasn't in direct relation to the image. It was the first one that popped up when I googled 'Boris twat'. 

 

 

I'll try that with Ken when I'm the PC.

[sphericalfox]

 

I'll try that with Ken when I'm the PC.

when you're the PC? Hmmmmm.... 

[bovril]

As MooseBreath says, pick your battles.... I live in a country that abolished their monarchy and executed the heir and it didn't do them any favours. Probably better to have a head of state that's born into it than some power-hungry dictator fighting his way to the top and hoarding the public cash for that inevitable day when they are overthrown.

And the baby's well cute.

[theessexfox]

Prince George.

[Harry - LCFC]

You don't want them ruling over you and you don't mind 'a bit of capitalism now and then?"

 

Forgive me if I sound crass but why don't you move? Life is too short to live under rulers that you don't want too, no one forces you to stay.

 

If someone removed the Monarchy, keet infringing on the countryside way of life, put restrictions on things I enjoy like gambling, drinking etc I wouldn't be hanging around for it at all.

 

Of course, they don't affect me much, I believe that it's only through their realisation that they can't use this power and affect my life that they remain in the position they're in. I just hate the idea that anyone has a legal right to power which was the point I was trying to make when I said they don't have a rightful place on the throne, even if it's just a technicality.