Captain... Posted 16 July 2014 Share Posted 16 July 2014 Yes but I think it's perfectly entitled to be, it would be no different to someone being intolerant of me if I wanted to walk around Mecca with a beer in my hand, I would be the one out of order and it would be the done and polite thing for me to do. So you see the irony in saying she has no place in our tolerant society then. As for the beer in Mecca, I think it is against the law so it is more than just impolite, and Saudi Arabia is a notoriously intolerant country ruled by religion which is anti alcohol so it is not the same. I would compare it to western girls in India being hissed at and spat at for walking around unaccompanied by a man. Which is disgusting and in these circumstances they should be more tolerant to the ways of foreigners. Which is the difference between our tolerant society, and other intolerant societies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 16 July 2014 Share Posted 16 July 2014 I don't disagree that it is ridiculous, but it is their right to be ridiculous, and it doesn't harm anyone. Of course it does, were it true it would automatically create a divide between the two people in whatever situation it was, one doesn't want to engage in an act of politeness and greet someone in a traditional sense with another. I don't think you realise how many people would actually be slightly pissed off if someone to refuse to do this, we are not all as subservient to Islam as you. I thought this was about a tutor, I've never had a tutor/teacher that showed any intention to shaking hands, I've even taught a few people as well and it never occurred to me to shake the hands of any of the participants Have times changes or am I missing something? It's probably something Ken has made up in a desperate attempt to try and portray himself as tolerant and liberal in all reality, I didn't even think of this but of course, why on earth would a tutor shake hands? Makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 16 July 2014 Share Posted 16 July 2014 Of course it does, were it true it would automatically create a divide between the two people in whatever situation it was, one doesn't want to engage in an act of politeness and greet someone in a traditional sense with another. I don't think you realise how many people would actually be slightly pissed off if someone to refuse to do this, we are not all as subservient to Islam as you. Again with these snide comments, I expect better of you Matthew, or should I just accuse you of being a BNP bigot? I think you are greatly over estimating the amount of people who would be offended by it, if someone snubbed a handshake without explanation then that is rude, but if someone explained why they refused to shake my hand I wouldn't be offended there is so much more to worry about in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 16 July 2014 Share Posted 16 July 2014 Matt why do you think the girl in the bikini is wearing it through choice and not the other woman? Wdy is there a hottest thread on Foxestalk? Is it women that post the pictures/ No it is done for men to gloat over. It is accepted these days but can you not see how it looks to women who value their modesty. Did the women in the 17th-20th centuries wear next to nothing? No. It was thought undignified to even show an ankle. And if you went bed with a woman which mostly was your own wife it took half the night to take off all the under garments. I have no strong views either way regarding the shaking or non shaking but I appreciated as did other being informed. It may not be a strict religious rule and it was personal to her but I did not fret over it or sulk. She may have been wrong but I defend her right to be wrong. Because we have grown up in a western society where it is normal for women to flash their bits at men as a tease we expect others to from different cultures to behave the same. Don't get me wrong I don't mind seeing girls under dressed but I can understand the point that picture makes.Maybe the woman in the burka does not want to feature on page 1230003 of Hottest Babes thread on Foxes Talk to satisfy the sexual urges of some over testosteroned teenager. And before anyone says ' Well they shouldn't come here if they don't like it.' My mum would be disgusted by some of the pictures, videos and chat on here and she is a quite open-minded for a woman of 84. I dread to think what my grannies would think of FT if they were alive. It would kill them. The origins of the handshake There is also Wikpedia and a piece where shaking hands was banned at the London olympics but the link is the Mirror so ignore that if you like. not having a go I am interested in custom origins. In Russia it is considered impolite for a man to shake a woman's hand. They prefer to kiss it. The French prefer to kiss men and Derby fans prefer to kiss sheep. Aussies prefer to kiss cans of XXX before shaking them. Any others/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxesAreBlue Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 Matt why do you think the girl in the bikini is wearing it through choice and not the other woman? Wdy is there a hottest thread on Foxestalk? Is it women that post the pictures/ No it is done for men to gloat over. It is accepted these days but can you not see how it looks to women who value their modesty. Did the women in the 17th-20th centuries wear next to nothing? No. It was thought undignified to even show an ankle. And if you went bed with a woman which mostly was your own wife it took half the night to take off all the under garments. I have no strong views either way regarding the shaking or non shaking but I appreciated as did other being informed. It may not be a strict religious rule and it was personal to her but I did not fret over it or sulk. She may have been wrong but I defend her right to be wrong. Because we have grown up in a western society where it is normal for women to flash their bits at men as a tease we expect others to from different cultures to behave the same. Don't get me wrong I don't mind seeing girls under dressed but I can understand the point that picture makes.Maybe the woman in the burka does not want to feature on page 1230003 of Hottest Babes thread on Foxes Talk to satisfy the sexual urges of some over testosteroned teenager. And before anyone says ' Well they shouldn't come here if they don't like it.' My mum would be disgusted by some of the pictures, videos and chat on here and she is a quite open-minded for a woman of 84. I dread to think what my grannies would think of FT if they were alive. It would kill them. The origins of the handshake There is also Wikpedia and a piece where shaking hands was banned at the London olympics but the link is the Mirror so ignore that if you like. not having a go I am interested in custom origins. In Russia it is considered impolite for a man to shake a woman's hand. They prefer to kiss it. The French prefer to kiss men and Derby fans prefer to kiss sheep. Aussies prefer to kiss cans of XXX before shaking them. Any others/ The women in magazines etc are paid (a tidy sum too) and still CHOOSE to do it - nobody forces them. Without reading the bullshit article, I remember that story and again there was a practical reason for the Olympians who were told not to shake hands (you don't know that they followed the advice it not), not some reason made up by some bullshit religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Joachim Jr Shabadoo Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 You should have kissed her hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merging Cultures Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 When we bought our house in Baltimore, the white middle aged Jewish man wouldn't shake my wife's hand. It's not just women or Muslims who have these beliefs. Personally, I'd much rather prefer to respect another persons religious beliefs as I'd expect them to respect mine. I want to live in a society that values individual responsibility and rights. In the UK people should be free to choose what they wear, what religion they practice and who they shake hands with. And the people they interact with should respect the rights of the individual. With rights comes responsibility, and that's where the UK had been lacking for a while. People need to take responsibility for their actions, but that's a different thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinowe Soorie Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 I'd rather not touch anybody's hands to be honest. Too many dirty bastards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merging Cultures Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 The women in magazines etc are paid (a tidy sum too) and still CHOOSE to do it - nobody forces them. Without reading the bullshit article, I remember that story and again there was a practical reason for the Olympians who were told not to shake hands (you don't know that they followed the advice it not), not some reason made up by some bullshit religion. Religion might be something you do not derive value from, but for myself and billions of others we do find value in it. So, personally, I find that phrase a little offensive. You could say, "not some reason made up by a religion I do not agree with" or "made up by religions, which I think are used by the wealthy to control the poor" etc. Thereby you are assigning religion a value from your personal beliefs, rather than a broad statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxesAreBlue Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 Religion might be something you do not derive value from, but for myself and billions of others we do find value in it. So, personally, I find that phrase a little offensive. You could say, "not some reason made up by a religion I do not agree with" or "made up by religions, which I think are used by the wealthy to control the poor" etc. Thereby you are assigning religion a value from your personal beliefs, rather than a broad statement. Apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 Whilst I agree that women in magazines do it mainly from choice the industry is still male dominated run by males for liberal-minded (sorry Matt) males.In fact I would go as far as saying that women exploit men because of it. I would imagine a lot of you have parents that grew up in the sixties and seventies the start of the change in how women are perceived so you have grown up surrounded by all this. But their parents would not approve. Some cultures customs are still in this era. Look at the Tinder thread and how potential dates are looked at. Women ask does he have a GSOH and fun to be with men ask does she have big tits and a good shag. Can you not see how this looks from the POV of people who are not so liberated? I may not agree with it all but in a way they respect women as they think it is wrong for them to be virtual sex toys.It is hard for us males to see this as we enjoy looking at women with their bits out. The reason I did not put the link to the Mirror article was because reason give was on health grounds not religion or a custom so I thought it not relevant. Give it time and you may have young girls from Muslim backgrounds sleeping around and appearing in the Cheb thread like the normal white British girls do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merging Cultures Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 Apologies. No problems. Thanks for apologising. I really appreciate that. It isn't done enough by people these days! You are entitled to your views. Without wanting to sound all gooey and wimpy, I really respect them. Now, I'll pray for your soul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 You don't half talk some bollocks Ken. If you seriously can't differentiate between a woman posing in a magazine by choice to a woman in a burka then I give up. I got some close family friends who are Russians, II've never heard of it being impolite to shake a woman's hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merging Cultures Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 I think Ken's point is that often a choice might not be made as freely as we think. Society, Governments, Corporations, Friends, Family, Religion, manipulate us to make choices. We might not be aware of the manipulation and believe it to be free will, but often we are making choices based on some form of manipulation. Women may certainly 'choose' to pose for men's magazines, but there is a certain amount of manipulation there. They may want to be a part of the cult of celebrity, or be seeking wealth, they may not feel they have other options available to them, or they may have other reasons to do so. There is nothing wrong with pursuing those goals, but I am pretty sure there is a certain amount of manipulation going on that encourages them to do so. If you consider 'the games' in Roman times, the attempt to distract the population and keep them happy. Do we not think that this happens these days? I think a good analogy now would be the Labour Party and benefits. Give the masses what they want so that you can get power. I mentioned personal responsibility before, I believe it is very important. However, it really only does stand up when one knows they are being manipulated and we can take action against that manipulation. Certainly, if someone is 'stuck in the system', then it is difficult to attribute personal responsibility to that person. That's why, in extremist societies (and probably our own to some level), education is usually wanting and poverty is rife. Keep the person uneducated and they will follow the manipulation, but they won't want to take personal responsibility and grow beyond their station. This is perhaps why some women 'choose' to pursue a career in glamour modelling, they only see themselves as an object of men's desire? Behavioural economics is a very interesting area, if you haven't read it, you should read 'Nudge', http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/24/books/review/Friedman-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 Maybe they are surrounded by a circle of friends that do not follow an old custom. I quite understand why you cannot see the relevance of the woman in the bikini and burkah. You are a young (ish) sexually active male who likes to look at nice looking women. You have grown up in a society which accepts this. Step back for one second and focus on your empathy side of your persona (we all have one) and see it from the perspective of a woman that values her modesty. Would she want men staring at her and secretly fondling her breasts and running his hands down her thighs? I am not saying I agreed with the custom only with the right to follow it and I respect her more fore talking about it than if she had snubbed a hand if offered. Why I mentioned it was that if anyone came across a situation where they had a choice then consider the possibility that it may not just be rudeness. What are women looking for in men on the Tinder site> A GSOH and a caring nature.. What are men looking for on the Tinder site? Good pair of knockers and good in bed. I doubt that will ever change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 Maybe they are surrounded by a circle of friends that do not follow an old custom. I quite understand why you cannot see the relevance of the woman in the bikini and burkah. You are a young (ish) sexually active male who likes to look at nice looking women. You have grown up in a society which accepts this. Step back for one second and focus on your empathy side of your persona (we all have one) and see it from the perspective of a woman that values her modesty. Would she want men staring at her and secretly fondling her breasts and running his hands down her thighs? I am not saying I agreed with the custom only with the right to follow it and I respect her more fore talking about it than if she had snubbed a hand if offered. Why I mentioned it was that if anyone came across a situation where they had a choice then consider the possibility that it may not just be rudeness. What are women looking for in men on the Tinder site> A GSOH and a caring nature.. What are men looking for on the Tinder site? Good pair of knockers and good in bed. I doubt that will ever change. Most of the old hags who wear these things Ken struggle to walk let alone be in fear of a few perverts eyeing them up or 'secretly fondling' them. Ken, If you are on Tinder, you are looking for a shag, it's the plentyoffish of phoneapps but just a bit posher. If you want to go on old stereotypes from the 1960's newspaper dating adverts go for it. I look forward to the day I'm a sexually unactive old man who can appreciate the burka and a handshake refusal, until that day though I'm happy as I am. As for the Russians, maybe they are just a people that don't go around the World not enforcing their cultural beliefs on people. It's actually quite common if you travel a bit Ken. P.S Weren't you dismissed from a job a while back for making sexually suggestive remarks at a young female employee?, again, this is smacking of hypocrisy Ben. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merging Cultures Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 What's the relevance of the Russians? I've searched the thread but I can't find them mentioned anywhere other than Matt's posts. Edit, found it. The search function is not the best!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 What's the relevance of the Russians? I've searched the thread but I can't find them mentioned anywhere other than Matt's posts. Edit, found it. The search function is not the best!! In Russia it is considered impolite for a man to shake a woman's hand. They prefer to kiss it. The French prefer to kiss men and Derby fans prefer to kiss sheep. Aussies prefer to kiss cans of XXX before shaking them. Any others/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 I think Ken's point is that often a choice might not be made as freely as we think. Society, Governments, Corporations, Friends, Family, Religion, manipulate us to make choices. We might not be aware of the manipulation and believe it to be free will, but often we are making choices based on some form of manipulation. Women may certainly 'choose' to pose for men's magazines, but there is a certain amount of manipulation there. They may want to be a part of the cult of celebrity, or be seeking wealth, they may not feel they have other options available to them, or they may have other reasons to do so. There is nothing wrong with pursuing those goals, but I am pretty sure there is a certain amount of manipulation going on that encourages them to do so. If you consider 'the games' in Roman times, the attempt to distract the population and keep them happy. Do we not think that this happens these days? I think a good analogy now would be the Labour Party and benefits. Give the masses what they want so that you can get power. I mentioned personal responsibility before, I believe it is very important. However, it really only does stand up when one knows they are being manipulated and we can take action against that manipulation. Certainly, if someone is 'stuck in the system', then it is difficult to attribute personal responsibility to that person. That's why, in extremist societies (and probably our own to some level), education is usually wanting and poverty is rife. Keep the person uneducated and they will follow the manipulation, but they won't want to take personal responsibility and grow beyond their station. This is perhaps why some women 'choose' to pursue a career in glamour modelling, they only see themselves as an object of men's desire? Behavioural economics is a very interesting area, if you haven't read it, you should read 'Nudge', http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/24/books/review/Friedman-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 Pretty much what I am saying but I look at it from a Secularist POV rather than religious. Same thing but without a God. I never went university but as I have grown older I have come to think that a good subject for me would be sociology or as someone said Anthropological Sociology if there is a course on that. Over the years I have had an interest in how people interact in society and in groups relating to how and where they grow up and the influences. I have not studied it deeply but when reading one of Terry pratchetts Science of Discworld books second I think)the theme was this and I found it more interesting than the one that had a theme of astro physics. But in my day only the brightest kids went UNi and there was not such a wide number of subjects to waste three years of your life on.. After all what use is a sociology degree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merging Cultures Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 As I said: Society, Governments, Corporations, Friends, Family, Religion, manipulate us to make choices Pretty much what I am saying but I look at it from a Secularist POV rather than religious. Same thing but without a God. I never went university but as I have grown older I have come to think that a good subject for me would be sociology or as someone said Anthropological Sociology if there is a course on that. Over the years I have had an interest in how people interact in society and in groups relating to how and where they grow up and the influences. I have not studied it deeply but when reading one of Terry pratchetts Science of Discworld books second I think)the theme was this and I found it more interesting than the one that had a theme of astro physics. But in my day only the brightest kids went UNi and there was not such a wide number of subjects to waste three years of your life on.. After all what use is a sociology degree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merging Cultures Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 Yeah, I got there in the end!! Russian and Russians didn't yield results and I didn't think to type in Russia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 What's the relevance of the Russians? I've searched the thread but I can't find them mentioned anywhere other than Matt's posts. Edit, found it. The search function is not the best!! I just put handshake custom origins. I do have an interest in customs but can you imagine how much more boring a 5-10000 word essay would be for an exam than my posts which are bad enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicesterlad1989 Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 Is it just me that seems to think that religion actually seems to cause a lot more harm than good? Reading this thread alone sums religion up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 Is it just me that seems to think that religion actually seems to cause a lot more harm than good? Reading this thread alone sums religion up. (But personally I think organised religion is responsible for gross excesses of both good and bad stuff.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 17 July 2014 Share Posted 17 July 2014 What's the relevance of the Russians? I've searched the thread but I can't find them mentioned anywhere other than Matt's posts. Edit, found it. The search function is not the best!! Did you use the advanced search found by clicking on the little gear wheel at the side of the search box in the top right corner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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