FoxyPV Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 There is a sizeable swing from Labour working class male voters to UKIP so I don't think the right will split that much. However UKIP's vote has grown in EU elections but stayed the same for the past 2 GE. Milliband couldn't lead a piss up in a brewery so if Labour do get in, it will be in spite of him.
Spiritwalker Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 I'd say unhappy, rather than moronic. That said I do question whether some people have really thought their decision through. Why is it that Labour voters are now going UKIP, a fairly free market party? I suspect they're doing so based on one or two issues alone rather than what they stand for in full. The UkIP voters that I know (including my dad) are working class, fairly uninterested in general politics, and have adislike for foreigners. When I try to explain to my dad that some UKIP policies may not be in his best interests, he says he doesn't care as long the French and Germans are no longer running the country.
johnny the fox Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 I struggle to see this argument against the Tories, if you want to succeed and get somewhere then they will help you do that. I also hate the argument that they're all private school elite and they just want to look after their pals. That is not the case and for some reason people expect to have such fortunes just placed at their feet too. You can all say that I'm naive and just a kid so I don't have a clue but at the age of 18, I see the Tories as a party that will help me get somewhere if I really want to and make the effort to. I mean the obvious one is the help to get on the property ladder at a younger age so that I can start building wealth. And it's not just the clever kids that they'll help, their drive to get people into apprenticeships is helpful for numerous people who want to do something useful. Someone I know that wasn't the brightest at school but was always willing, got an apprenticeship at 16 as an electrician. He's earning a nice sum now considering he is 18, he's learnt a good profession and he's traveling all over the UK and parts of Europe with it too. Another person has done the same but in IT. On the otherhand I know plenty of people that went to sixth form, did BTECs and silly subjects, saw it as a free doss for two years and are struggling to find anything to do now and they seem to be expecting something to just fall at their feet. If you have a clear vision and you want something, the Tories will help. But the problem is that too many people expect it to just be made easy for the, to be given everything but that is not how it should work. I won't pretend that the Tories are perfect because they are not. Gove has made a hash of education but at least he tried to reform it because it needs it after Blair. I don't even have a problem with the increase in tuition fees, in fact I'd blame it on Labour's drive to send every tom, dick and harry to uni I just see it as the Tories will give me a helping hand up whereas labour will only strive to bring everyone down to the same level rather move everyone up because that's easier. Maybe it's easy for me to say when I had a stable upbringing and had the gift of some intelligence but I really do worry for my post uni prospects if Milliband gets in. And modest as well.. you have got the lot.
johnny the fox Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 How have the tories failed this term, in your opinion? Not going to post a list, cameron said he would get immigration below 100,000 net, it was 240,000 last quarter, he knows this pledge is impossible to keep while our borders are controlled by europe. This is the longest period of falling living standards since 1870's fact. inflation is still far outstripping earnings ,cameron almost lost part of the union on his watch, he had to be bailed out by gordon brown for fooks sake.. those are just a little taster ..
MooseBreath Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 Not going to post a list, cameron said he would get immigration below 100,000 net, it was 240,000 last quarter, he knows this pledge is impossible to keep while our borders are controlled by europe. This is the longest period of falling living standards since 1870's fact. inflation is still far outstripping earnings ,cameron almost lost part of the union on his watch, he had to be bailed out by gordon brown for fooks sake.. those are just a little taster .. How is that level of immigration affecting you personally, and how do you expect to benefit from lower EU immigration should we leave the EU? How do you think UKIP are going to improve living standards? From what I've seen they plan to raise the tax free allowance (as would the tories) and reduce tax on higher earners (as would the tories) leaving, presumably, the rest of us in the middle to pay for it. They have made no commitment to any of the kind of large infrastructure projects which governments can use to provoke economic growth and they obviously don't plan on relying on immigration. They actually plan to scrap HS2 and end incentives for renewable energy and replace them with nothing, from which you can only assume at this stage that they're effectively against improved transport infrastructure and against renewable energy which will do an enormous amount of damage to our economy in the medium term. From what I've read they're almost as illiterate as Labour economically so to vote for them thinking your living standards are going to improve is a hell of a gamble.
Guest MattP Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 I agree to a certain extent, the best PR UKIP have received is from other parties ignorance and poor spin. A bit like the YES campaign in scotland, the No campaign was so poorly run that the YES party barely had to do anything but count their new voters. The Lib dem's somehow agreed to debate Farage, every single person apart from Clegg could see it was going to be a disastrous decision. It never fails to amaze me how stupid political parties can be. We are an odd breed when it comes to voting. People would vote for one party in protest against their own beliefs even though it risks their own party losing. The band wagon jumpingjon a political party just because it's the 'new thing' to do. People with little knowledge about the EU or immigration automatically believing that only bad things come from abroad. I find UKIP's surge in popularity incredibly sad, but I understand why it's happend. Bit of rewriting history here Ron, half way through the Euro debates you thought Clegg was 'smashing him' As for the last bit, you are actually often part of the problem, I think I must have counted 10-12 times now where either me, Webbo, Strokes have asked you to come back with a defence of the expansion of the EU and you never seem to, if you have I've missed it on numerous occasions. Clegg did his best but the fact seems to remain the EU in it's current form is indefensible, a project that started as a great idea, strong trading with major nations has become a vanity project that has tried to combine economies that simply cannot co-exist together. The pro-EU movement also has a massive issue with the fact the only people that seem to support it are rich themselvs or directly profit from it, pontificating to a plumber earning little about how good the freedom of movement laws are is rightly scoffed at, why should a builder on less than 15k vote to stay in this so you can hire a cheap nanny from Latvia? The same people also wanted to invite Turkey into this, can you seriously imagine the consequences of that were it allowed to happen? The funny thing is you get the feeling some so called lefties will be happy to support a project that is keeping millions in poverty alive just because they don't want to align with Farage at some point. It's rather baffling. It's going to be so key to get the eurosceptic left wingers like Tom Watson and George Galloway on board to try and secure our exit from this, such a shame Tony Benn died as well. I really fear it will be turned into a left-right argument. Kilroy was never in charge of the party, he threw a hissy fit and founded Veritas when no-one supported him. Worked out well Apologies, I stand corrected. I had an Email off Shnapp or whatever his name is saying the same thing. Not replied of course. lol Wanderley Hageu, Grant Shnapp, Lucky Kendall, Hawaiian Dictators, George Oborne - fantastic. Paul Morgan @plmrgn 5h5 hours ago Fella from Clacton on the radio then, "I voted UKIP because I haven't seen my MP since the last election!" Hate to break it to ya, pal... On the contary a lot seem to actually now realise what thet are voting for. A UKIP voter in Heywood and Middleton said he was poor 40 years ago so started voting Labour, he said after 40 years of Labour he's still poor, so why not take a chance? The Labour party sees their own electorate as fools, people who would vote for a cow with a red rosette on, that's certainly something you can't accuse Conservatives of anymore. I think they get that a decent chunk of the electorate are morons, UKIP's surge in popularity has made that pretty clear. Blimey, you still don't get it do you? In a couple of years time everyone who has gone out and voted UKIP, will probably get what they want out of politics. We'll be sitting here with a huge shift to the right in terms of policy from all sides, a number of UKIP MP's in parliament and very possibly an EU referendum whoever is in power, all because of those voters who had the balls to break away. You'll probably still be voting for a main party and probably will have got nothing you want out of politics. And despite that situation you will call them the morons. If only you could see the bigger picture and realise how silly you look.
Guest MattP Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 I'm not anti UKIP just pro Tory and I'm worried that if we split the anti Labour vote they'll get in at the next election. It's a concern of course but the way the Tories are approaching this is wrong. If the Tories drop out of Heywood and Middleton then UKIP win that seat (and thats safe Labour in the north, imagine what would happen in marginals), they can't go around saying 'a vote for UKIP is a vote for Labour' unless they also admit that anywhere north of Nottingham 'a vote for the Conservatives is also a vote for Labour'. I'd love to see a pact and the brilliant Jacob Rees Mogg has yet again spoken today how it should happen but Farage can't really go in with Cameron given what he said about his party, I'm sure it's a huge regret of DC's now. The more I think about the Tories the more I think George Osbourne is entirely responsible for them even having a chance next May, it's his economic policy that has driven the recovery and created the mass employment we have and that is what has coincided with the polls coming back together with Labour. Cameron has been on the verge of cock up after cock up, he's pissed off his core vote so much he could pretty much lose any seat in the country if the MP defected to UKIP, he's pushed through a range of laws to satify social liberals ie gay marriage that has alienated supporters, everyone I speak to at the countryside festival is wondering why he still hasn't repealed the hunting ban considering he made an open promise to do so at loads of events across the country. He should think himself lucky Miliband didnt agree with him on Syria last year or he'd now be in a situation where he has marched ISIS into Damascus.
johnny the fox Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 How is that level of immigration affecting you personally, and how do you expect to benefit from lower EU immigration should we leave the EU? How do you think UKIP are going to improve living standards? From what I've seen they plan to raise the tax free allowance (as would the tories) and reduce tax on higher earners (as would the tories) leaving, presumably, the rest of us in the middle to pay for it. They have made no commitment to any of the kind of large infrastructure projects which governments can use to provoke economic growth and they obviously don't plan on relying on immigration. They actually plan to scrap HS2 and end incentives for renewable energy and replace them with nothing, from which you can only assume at this stage that they're effectively against improved transport infrastructure and against renewable energy which will do an enormous amount of damage to our economy in the medium term. From what I've read they're almost as illiterate as Labour economically so to vote for them thinking your living standards are going to improve is a hell of a gamble. It sounds like your for open borders and a free for all? tell me do you believe in ANY controls on immigration? if so what are they? The strain on our public services and infrastructure is obvious to anybody not living in a hole. 4million unskilled/ semi skilled workers have come to this country, thus suppressing wages for ordinary working people especially the young. There are now 5 million people on the council house waiting lists in this country. As HS2 its not just UKIP who have serious reservations over this project. multi billions to be spent to save 15/20 mins on journeys between north and south.. You make sweeping and slightly arrogant statements about economic literacy of other parties as if we should have a Tory one party state. The fact is, the politics and the economics of this country do not work for most of the people, that is why people are in a desperate search for an alternative.
Guest MattP Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 First poll out for Rochester and Strood. http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Confidential-Rochester-and-Strood-Constituency-Poll-Weighted_Oct03.pdf 40% UKIP with a 9pt lead. Looks like it's two in a few weeks. The whole of Kent could be turning Purple, which with weight of the devolution powers coming for England could be very important.
Mark_w Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 Blimey, you still don't get it do you? In a couple of years time everyone who has gone out and voted UKIP, will probably get what they want out of politics. We'll be sitting here with a huge shift to the right in terms of policy from all sides, a number of UKIP MP's in parliament and very possibly an EU referendum whoever is in power, all because of those voters who had the balls to break away. You'll probably still be voting for a main party and probably will have got nothing you want out of politics. And despite that situation you will call them the morons. If only you could see the bigger picture and realise how silly you look. Still be voting for a main party? I've voted only in the European Parliament elections (I'm 19), for the Greens. I'm not saying that people who vote against a main party are wasting their vote, I totally get that they've made a significant difference to British politics. But I don't think the change is at all positive, I'm not saying they won't get what they want I'm simply saying that what they want is stupid. I appreciate the discontent with Labour, the Conservatives and generally with British politics at the moment, I just think it's a shame that the alternative that people want, will in my opinion have a significant negative impact on the majority of the country.
Guest MattP Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 Still be voting for a main party? I've voted only in the European Parliament elections (I'm 19), for the Greens. I'm not saying that people who vote against a main party are wasting their vote, I totally get that they've made a significant difference to British politics. But I don't think the change is at all positive, I'm not saying they won't get what they want I'm simply saying that what they want is stupid. I appreciate the discontent with Labour, the Conservatives and generally with British politics at the moment, I just think it's a shame that the alternative that people want, will in my opinion have a significant negative impact on the majority of the country. It's quite incredible you can actually write that in a serious post. Go to Brighton Pavillion and have a chat with the impact on lives the Greens have had, £25 to park your car to go work, bins not being collected, a real life Truman Show in terms of the way you want to live just because a selfish few see fit to want to take people back a couple of centuries.
Guest MattP Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 Although I shouldn't be too harsh. Even I was a liberal at 19!
Strokes Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 Still be voting for a main party? I've voted only in the European Parliament elections (I'm 19), for the Greens. I'm not saying that people who vote against a main party are wasting their vote, I totally get that they've made a significant difference to British politics. But I don't think the change is at all positive, I'm not saying they won't get what they want I'm simply saying that what they want is stupid. I appreciate the discontent with Labour, the Conservatives and generally with British politics at the moment, I just think it's a shame that the alternative that people want, will in my opinion have a significant negative impact on the majority of the country.So instead of calling people morons, why don't you champion the other side and educate us all. Please tell me how the European Union is so positive, it more than cancels out all the obvious negatives?
Webbo Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 It sounds like your for open borders and a free for all? tell me do you believe in ANY controls on immigration? if so what are they? The strain on our public services and infrastructure is obvious to anybody not living in a hole. 4million unskilled/ semi skilled workers have come to this country, thus suppressing wages for ordinary working people especially the young. There are now 5 million people on the council house waiting lists in this country. As HS2 its not just UKIP who have serious reservations over this project. multi billions to be spent to save 15/20 mins on journeys between north and south.. You make sweeping and slightly arrogant statements about economic literacy of other parties as if we should have a Tory one party state. The fact is, the politics and the economics of this country do not work for most of the people, that is why people are in a desperate search for an alternative.You have to laugh when moosey is the moderate.
Mark_w Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 It's quite incredible you can actually write that in a serious post. Go to Brighton Pavillion and have a chat with the impact on lives the Greens have had, £25 to park your car to go work, bins not being collected, a real life Truman Show in terms of the way you want to live just because a selfish few see fit to want to take people back a couple of centuries. Well I'm not the only person who voted Green in the European Parliament election, I believe they got more votes than the Conservatives and UKIP in Brighton and Hove. They're still very much in the running for re-election there, while there is some discontent, I don't think you can use that to suggest that Greens would have be bad for the country. Having said that I voted in the European Elections for the Greens largely because their manifesto appealed to me far more than any others (other than the Lib Dems who I have no desire to vote for), I haven't voted for them on a local level and I don't know if I will, their performance on a local level wasn't really relevant to my decision in the EU elections. So instead of calling people morons, why don't you champion the other side and educate us all. Please tell me how the European Union is so positive, it more than cancels out all the obvious negatives? My dislike of UKIP is a lot stronger than my support for any other party, which is why I'm not championing the other side, I have no idea who I'm going to vote for in the General Election and certainly don't particularly strongly support any party. I'm generally pretty open to voting for any party whose policies appeal to me. Whilst I lean towards being pro EU, I don't feel that strongly about it and it's not why I dislike UKIP, so there would be very little point. UKIP are getting significant enough support now, I believe, to suggest they're a legitimate political threat. So I think it would be very naive to vote for them purely because you want Britain out of the European Union, they're not exactly the only party offering that or offering a referendum on the subject. My problem with UKIP voters is that a lot seem to be letting their discontent with the European Union lead them toward voting for a party built on xenophobia and unfounded patriotism and I fear a good proportion will do so in the general election. The majority of UKIP's 'issues'/policies are awful, that's why I think people voting for them are stupid.
Strokes Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 Well I'm not the only person who voted Green in the European Parliament election, I believe they got more votes than the Conservatives and UKIP in Brighton and Hove. They're still very much in the running for re-election there, while there is some discontent, I don't think you can use that to suggest that Greens would have be bad for the country. Having said that I voted in the European Elections for the Greens largely because their manifesto appealed to me far more than any others (other than the Lib Dems who I have no desire to vote for), I haven't voted for them on a local level and I don't know if I will, their performance on a local level wasn't really relevant to my decision in the EU elections. My dislike of UKIP is a lot stronger than my support for any other party, which is why I'm not championing the other side, I have no idea who I'm going to vote for in the General Election and certainly don't particularly strongly support any party. I'm generally pretty open to voting for any party whose policies appeal to me. Whilst I lean towards being pro EU, I don't feel that strongly about it and it's not why I dislike UKIP, so there would be very little point. UKIP are getting significant enough support now, I believe, to suggest they're a legitimate political threat. So I think it would be very naive to vote for them purely because you want Britain out of the European Union, they're not exactly the only party offering that or offering a referendum on the subject. My problem with UKIP voters is that a lot seem to be letting their discontent with the European Union lead them toward voting for a party built on xenophobia and unfounded patriotism and I fear a good proportion will do so in the general election. The majority of UKIP's 'issues'/policies are awful, that's why I think people voting for them are stupid. I think the majority of labour or Lib dem policies are awful (greens ) but I wouldn't call the voters stupid. Not collectively anyway.
SMX11 Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 The sooner the Labour and Conservative parties die and stop propping each other up the better. The conservative party can no longer win a majority in the country and as shown in the by-election in Haywood and Middleton have no chance of getting many seats in places above the River Trent. The fake fear they claim to have of a Labour majority (even though they agree on quite a lot of major policy) is quite laughable as their existence rallies the 'anti-Tory' sentiment in Labour heart lands and making their brand totally toxic to half the seats in the country. If they were genuinely afraid of Labour majority they wouldn't put candidates against UKIP in such areas. What the LibLabCon do fear is a break up of the status quo and having to discuss issues that in the past they appear to have colluded into not discussing because they have no power over it. All three agree in continued membership of the EU, all three are still pursuing with this quite self harming drive for 'green' energy, all three agreed on nationalising the losses of the banking system, all three agree in the immigration policy since 1997 and all three agree in the ever increasing budget for 'international development'. While I don't think UKIP in its current shape is necessarily the saviour, it is certainly nice to see a party offering an alternative on particular issues I have reservations over and have disgracefully been pursued without any real opposition or critique.
MooseBreath Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 It sounds like your for open borders and a free for all? tell me do you believe in ANY controls on immigration? if so what are they? The strain on our public services and infrastructure is obvious to anybody not living in a hole. 4million unskilled/ semi skilled workers have come to this country, thus suppressing wages for ordinary working people especially the young. There are now 5 million people on the council house waiting lists in this country. As HS2 its not just UKIP who have serious reservations over this project. multi billions to be spent to save 15/20 mins on journeys between north and south.. You make sweeping and slightly arrogant statements about economic literacy of other parties as if we should have a Tory one party state. The fact is, the politics and the economics of this country do not work for most of the people, that is why people are in a desperate search for an alternative.An alternative that UKIP won't provide. They're proposing no serious changes to our economy other than a reduction in those things that we know help the economy grow, namely immigration and investment in large infrastructure. On immigration I'm certainly not in favour of a free for all, but I do recognise the benefits of well controlled importation of certain skills. Flooding the lower skill market has been proven to drive down wages, and that should stop. Importation of incompatible cultures causes social conflict and that should stop, as should the grouping together of large numbers of immigrants in certain areas which places excessive pressure on local services. Immediately withdrawing from the EU won't solve existing problems and it won't stem the tide of non-EU migrants, and it's they who are responsible for most of the issues. A better idea would be to seek better terms to our status in the EU and then take it to a referendum, while making it harder for unskilled non-EU migrants to come here for work.
MooseBreath Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 You have to laugh when moosey is the moderate. I do feel like I'm becoming more moderate as I get older. This nationalistic stuff makes me feel a bit uneasy. Heaven forbid I'm turning into purpleronnie
Buce Posted 11 October 2014 Author Posted 11 October 2014 A new kind of politician? Yeah, right... http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/MEP-Roger-Helmer-insists-private-life-s-business/story-23103674-detail/story.html
bovril Posted 11 October 2014 Posted 11 October 2014 A new kind of politician? Yeah, right... http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/MEP-Roger-Helmer-insists-private-life-s-business/story-23103674-detail/story.html He's right though. What he does in his private life is nobody's business.
Buce Posted 11 October 2014 Author Posted 11 October 2014 He's right though. What he does in his private life is nobody's business. Nonetheless, people are entitled to judge him for what he does in his private life - he is a public figure.
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