Migrants 'willing to die' to get to Britain from Calais.

[johnny the fox]

Are you going to have much fun in Britain if your dead?  weekend at Bernies 5?

[ScouseFox]

Are they really willing to die though? Cos that seems a bit pointless. Why not save yourself the effort and die at home?

 

might get dug out their bloody graves if they die in eastern europe 

[Dr The Singh]

And if they die this will somehow help their families?

They have no idea the chances of death are high, people tend to think of success stories then mortal ones!!  They believe the west will care for them!!

[Alf Bentley]

There are obviously some immigrants who come here to work and obviously there are a lot who come here to live off benefits. What the percentages of each group there is I wouldn't claim to know but I wouldn't glibly dismiss the genuine concerns and experiences of others as racism either or assume that everyone who disagrees with me isn't clever enough to realise that they've been brainwashed by the right wing press.

 

- I didn't "glibly dismiss genuine concerns"; I agreed with one justified concern (adverse effect on pay for low-skilled work), wondered about another (unemployment) and sought to challenge apparently unjustified concerns (benefits tourists)

- I didn't dismiss anything as racism; I didn't even mention the word

- I didn't even mention the right-wing press

- You "wouldn't claim to know percentages" but know that only "some" immigrants come here to work, while "a lot" come to live off benefits....a claim for which you present no evidence whatsoever

- I didn't claim to have a monopoly on the truth, but I did quote links to relevant research claiming that immigrants were 45% less likely to be on benefits than native Brits (2000-2011). Research isn't infallible, of course, but you had questioned Ronnie's assumptions (unsupported, you implied) so I wanted to support my claims.

 

I've been spending too much time on FoxesTalk recently - and don't want to get into a slanging match about an issue on which most people have fixed opinions (probably including me, though we all like to think we're special). So, I'll depart this thread - and probably most others. FoxesTalk is meant to be fun (one of the reasons that I've never put anyone on "ignore") and this is no fun at all. Good luck to you, but time for me to ban myself from bashing my head against the wall. 

[Webbo]

- I didn't "glibly dismiss genuine concerns"; I agreed with one justified concern (adverse effect on pay for low-skilled work), wondered about another (unemployment) and sought to challenge apparently unjustified concerns (benefits tourists)

- I didn't dismiss anything as racism; I didn't even mention the word

- I didn't even mention the right-wing press

- You "wouldn't claim to know percentages" but know that only "some" immigrants come here to work, while "a lot" come to live off benefits....a claim for which you present no evidence whatsoever

- I didn't claim to have a monopoly on the truth, but I did quote links to relevant research claiming that immigrants were 45% less likely to be on benefits than native Brits (2000-2011). Research isn't infallible, of course, but you had questioned Ronnie's assumptions (unsupported, you implied) so I wanted to support my claims.

 

I've been spending too much time on FoxesTalk recently - and don't want to get into a slanging match about an issue on which most people have fixed opinions (probably including me, though we all like to think we're special). So, I'll depart this thread - and probably most others. FoxesTalk is meant to be fun (one of the reasons that I've never put anyone on "ignore") and this is no fun at all. Good luck to you, but time for me to ban myself from bashing my head against the wall. 

It wasn't aimed directly at you and I'm sorry if you took it personally.

 

Don't be offended alf, nothing mentioned on here matters a jot in the scheme of things.

[Dr The Singh]

It wasn't aimed directly at you and I'm sorry if you took it personally.

 

Don't be offended alf, nothing mentioned on here matters a jot in the scheme of things.

I'm personally disgusted at your behaviour Webbo, no donkey for you tonight!!!!

[Webbo]

I'm personally disgusted at your behaviour Webbo, no donkey for you tonight!!!!

 I feel such an ass.

[Dr The Singh]

 I feel such an ass.

That ass was not supposed to be yours, you don't deserve it, it;s something you are gonna have to mule on!!

[Guest]

That ass was not supposed to be yours, you don't deserve it, it;s something you are gonna have to mule on!!

Eeee-awwwwter know better!

[DennisNedry]

Alf, you can't just group all immigration together. It's not fair to include an Indian doctor in the same bracket as an unskilled illegal African immigrant coming ashore on a makeshift boat.

[Rincewind]

Immigrants cannot claim benefits or housing if they arrive illegally.They still have to wait if legal.

[Guest Kopfkino]

As Friedman did say, illegal immigration is better than legal immigration when there is a welfare state

[Alf Bentley]

Alf, you can't just group all immigration together. It's not fair to include an Indian doctor in the same bracket as an unskilled illegal African immigrant coming ashore on a makeshift boat.

 

I was commenting on whether immigrants in general were coming here to go on benefits - and linked to research evidence showing that they were 45% less likely to be on benefits than Brits. If you want to challenge that evidence, go ahead. Alternatively, if the statistic is correct but you have evidence that thousands of African boatpeople are coming here to go on benefits, go ahead and post it. For the 45% statistic to be correct, those African benefit-scrounging boatpeople must be massively outnumbered by millions of Indian doctors coming here to work, are they? 

 

The stats suggest a different explanation.

- There has been a large increase in employment over recent years.

- A large proportion of the jobs have gone to immigrants.

- A large proportion of the increase in employment involves low-paid jobs.

- There has been a slight decline in pay for unskilled work

- Immigrants are contributing a lot more in tax than they are getting in benefits

- Immigrants are 45% less likely to be claiming benefits than Brits are

 

This all strongly suggests that any problem of immigrants coming here to claim benefits is very small indeed. In contrast, there probably is a problem of immigrants coming here from Africa, Eastern Europe and elsewhere to work and being prepared to work for low pay. The research suggests that pay for unskilled work has only gone down slightly, but with the rise in the cost of living that's more than enough to make it a genuine problem. Immigrants coming here to work and getting low pay from employers IS a problem. Immigrants coming here to claim benefits is NOT a problem.

 

Think about that 45% figure for a minute. Most British people are working....yet the proportion of immigrants working and not claiming benefits is much higher.

 

That's it! I've wasted enough time on here lately. Very few people have open minds or are interested in evidence. They just want to spout the same old opinions....and maybe I'm no better. Time to self-ban, for a while at least, and do something more productive with my time. Let's have a performance and a win on Saturday!

[leicsmac]

I was commenting on whether immigrants in general were coming here to go on benefits - and linked to research evidence showing that they were 45% less likely to be on benefits than Brits. If you want to challenge that evidence, go ahead. Alternatively, if the statistic is correct but you have evidence that thousands of African boatpeople are coming here to go on benefits, go ahead and post it. For the 45% statistic to be correct, those African benefit-scrounging boatpeople must be massively outnumbered by millions of Indian doctors coming here to work, are they? 

 

The stats suggest a different explanation.

- There has been a large increase in employment over recent years.

- A large proportion of the jobs have gone to immigrants.

- A large proportion of the increase in employment involves low-paid jobs.

- There has been a slight decline in pay for unskilled work

- Immigrants are contributing a lot more in tax than they are getting in benefits

- Immigrants are 45% less likely to be claiming benefits than Brits are

 

This all strongly suggests that any problem of immigrants coming here to claim benefits is very small indeed. In contrast, there probably is a problem of immigrants coming here from Africa, Eastern Europe and elsewhere to work and being prepared to work for low pay. The research suggests that pay for unskilled work has only gone down slightly, but with the rise in the cost of living that's more than enough to make it a genuine problem. Immigrants coming here to work and getting low pay from employers IS a problem. Immigrants coming here to claim benefits is NOT a problem.

 

Think about that 45% figure for a minute. Most British people are working....yet the proportion of immigrants working and not claiming benefits is much higher.

 

That's it! I've wasted enough time on here lately. Very few people have open minds or are interested in evidence. They just want to spout the same old opinions....and maybe I'm no better. Time to self-ban, for a while at least, and do something more productive with my time. Let's have a performance and a win on Saturday!

 

That would be a shame. The GC board is a better place with your contribution, and I think most would agree with me on that.

[MooseBreath]

Does the paid in tax vs received in welfare argument include things like schooling and health care? Or is is just income related benefits? Is housing benefit even included?

Other statistics show that you need to be earning over something like £24k as an individual before you make a net contribution to public finances, if you have kids then that figure is considerably higher. I doubt a lot of these immigrants are even on as much as £24k, never mind the fact that a lot of them have large families. You need to look at the whole pie.

[MrSpaM]

I don't think I've ever met an immigrant that actually likes living in the uk, most of them seem to hate it once they get here

[MC Prussian]

I don't think I've ever met an immigrant that actually likes living in the uk, most of them seem to hate it once they get here

Life in the UK might not be the most attractive, but it's certainly better than fearing for the worst in countries like Eritrea or Ethiopia, where conflict is at a boiling point at the moment.

 

Have you seen the conditions they live in down there and can you imagine how oppressive the regimes are in certain areas of the world?

Africans and Asians seeking refuge mostly (not always, but mostly) do it for political reasons.

[l444ry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcG7kvaceQo

[Alf Bentley]

Couldn't keep away (temporarily), could I?! 

 

That would be a shame. The GC board is a better place with your contribution, and I think most would agree with me on that.

 

Thanks for the compliment. I mostly enjoy it on here, but have drifted into spending too much time on here recently (my fault). I probably just need to take a bit of a break to get on with other stuff and be a bit more self-disciplined when I come back.

 

 

Does the paid in tax vs received in welfare argument include things like schooling and health care? Or is is just income related benefits? Is housing benefit even included?

Other statistics show that you need to be earning over something like £24k as an individual before you make a net contribution to public finances, if you have kids then that figure is considerably higher. I doubt a lot of these immigrants are even on as much as £24k, never mind the fact that a lot of them have large families. You need to look at the whole pie.

 

My understanding is that the original figures include all benefits and all tax credits, but not schooling or healthcare.

 

That wider fiscal issue is addressed on pp.219-224 of this report: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/333083/MAC-Migrants_in_low-skilled_work__Full_report_2014.pdf

 

The gist seems to be that, after considering issues like schools and healthcare, recent immigrants from across Europe still make a net contribution, while earlier immigrants from the Indian subcontinent and elsewhere produce a deficit overall.

 

It seems that quite a high proportion of European immigrants earn decent incomes and pay a lot of tax. Also, a lot of low-paid immigrants from Eastern Europe do not have dependent families here - and, as they are relatively young, they probably use health services less, too, particularly as many of them just stay for a few years, earn some cash and return to their native countries. It sounds as if the fiscal deficit produced by earlier generations from Asia has little to do with benefits either - it's the combination of relatively low pay and large families.....and, if the usual pattern occurs, some of the children from those families (2nd generation) will be higher earners and net tax contributors. We'll need more people of working age to support our ageing population, anyway. Try pp. 219-224 if you're really interested.

 

Right, I really am taking a break now! Will be back to bore the arse off you at some point, though!

[Guest MattP]

Blimey Alf this is a worse effort than my attempt at a self ban. Alwways good to see you back though.

 

The point on economics is a very broad one and I think it's impossible to give a definitive answer given we don't take schooling or healthcare into the equation on these, it's also probably a bit skewed UK wide as the majority of Eastern European immigrants seem to head to London in this day and age so wages that they rake in for the jobs they will appear higher than they probably actually are, it also doesn't take into account welfare being received by people from this country who otherwise would be employed in a low skilled low paid job.

 

I was in Glasgow a couple of years back and a colleague showed me a tower block of people 'living off the state' next to a factory he said was now about 90% polish workers. (If they aren't there you assume the tower block is working there instead and scenarios like that are impossible to account for in terms of cost)

 

Personally I think the economic argument over immigration is often overplayed, you can't put a price on social cohesion and the price of divided communities and we are unfortunately seeing that all over the place.

 

One thing I will agree on is how many people we need of working age to support the elderdy, what the long term plan is for that though when the increased young population starts to get old though I have no idea, pensions schemes seem the obvious answer but I think we all know deep down they'll be gone again eventually in some sort of financial disaster.

[Guest MattP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcG7kvaceQo

 

You know British politics has gone mad when Labour are trying to take a tough stance on immigration.

 

We'll have Cameron attacking Miliband on cutting benefits for single mothers next week.

[Rincewind]

I dount it

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Strange that the assumption is that they want a life on benefits whilst in reality the vast majority want to work and do work.  But it's easy to pedal myths when it comes to immigrants. 

Don't make me laugh! Myths my arse!

[Rincewind]

Don't make me laugh! Myths my arse!

[Harry - LCFC]

Don't make me laugh! Myths my arse!

 

Statistics do show that immigrants are less likely to claim unemployment benefits that the average citizen.

 

Now it might be the case that they're still 'net-receivers' as Moose pointed out but the reality is that, on the whole, they're here to work rather than scrounge.