cc_star Posted 12 February 2015 Posted 12 February 2015 Personally I don't get the Hamer love in some posters have. His distribution from balls passed back to him is truly woeful, I feel nervous everytime we pass to him. As was seen on Tuesday when we had centre backs comfortable on the ball our keeper will need to be more involved in this area of play. Hamer has good traits I admit but distribution and footwork are two very important traits and he is our worst at both imo. No love in from me, it's a results business and we've been better at the back with Hamer in goal, his weakness aren't as disastrous as Kasper 'Stuck to the line' Schmeichel's ability to put the defence under 100% unnecessary pressure leading to goals galore, or Mark 'Spill' Schwartzer. If we stay up, we need a new No1. but for me Hamer's proved himself to be capable backup unlike our other two
filbertway Posted 12 February 2015 Posted 12 February 2015 Comparing the stats - Passes per game - Schwarz 23 Schmeichel 17 Ben 19 Successful passes - Schwarz - 12 Schmeichel - 8 Hamer - 7 Pass completion - Schwarz - 54% Schmeichel - 46% Hamer 38% Average Pass length Schwarz - 45% Schmeichel - 53% Hamer - 55% Ignoring clean sheets based on games played Goals conceded (semi ignore this because of games played, but this is average over 90 minutes in each game) Schwarz - 2 Schmeichel 1.86 Hamer - 1 Saves Schwarz - 2.67 Schmeichel - 2.14 Hamer - 1.63 Distrubution accuracy - Schwarz - 58% Schmeichel 48% Hamer - 41% Catches Schwarzer - 4 Schmeichel - 2 Hamer - 1 Schwarzer - 6 Schmeichel - 0 Hamer - 2 Statistically, Schwarzer is the better keeper SO FAR How he fairs after 8 games and 14 games (played by ben and kasper) will tell us more, however is it worth dropping him??? or to counter that, Is it worth us risking that schwarzer will be better for the remaining 13 games? Bear in mind 2 of those saves he made he palmed straight to an attacker.
Gio Posted 12 February 2015 Posted 12 February 2015 Hamer for me. Yes his distribution is poor but that's not the most important quality as a keeper. Yes it's nice to have a keeper who can kick the ball properly but it's more important that they Command their area (unlike kasper) and make decent saves which don't go to opposition (like Mark) Schwarzer should just work with Hamer to help improve his distribution and encourage him to play more short passes or throw it out rather than always kicking it long so we keep possession more. If the defenders give him the short options this shouldn't be hard
ADK Posted 12 February 2015 Posted 12 February 2015 I don't understand the mentality that says a keeper should be rated on his distribution. Schwarzer favours the short option and doesn't try the long distance balls in behind the opposition defence that Hamer and Schmeichel often try. I happen to prefer that too, but feel that is something that could be coached over time for both Kasper and Ben. Right now though we need to stop conceding goals and that is the only stat that counts, in the same way the only stat that will allow us to play in the EPL next year is points, not goalkeeper pass success or how much Arsene Wenger likes us. Andy King has the highest pass success rate of all our central midfielders and Esteban Cambiasso has the lowest, who has been better?
Haydos Posted 12 February 2015 Posted 12 February 2015 59% of all Hamers passes end up with the opposition. In total he's made 271 passes and of those 172 didn't go to a city player. He's made a total of 9 accurate short passes (yes that's 9 out of 271 total). Teams with the best chance of winning are the ones that keep the ball not give it away. I like Hamer. I don't like the fact he gives the ball away constantly. So no. Not kidding. He's a goalkeeper for **** sake. His job is to stop goals, something Hamer does far better than Schwarzer so far. We're a bottom of the league side and we don't have strong footballing centre backs. We're not a possession team, that's clear from the stats and Pearson's tactics this season (this is another matter entirely). Not to mention the ridiculously small amount of data you're trying to draw conclusions from. Yes, ridiculous.
HoustonFox Posted 12 February 2015 Posted 12 February 2015 He's a goalkeeper for **** sake. His job is to stop goals, something Hamer does far better than Schwarzer so far. This is key for me. I'm still struggling to see what Hamer has done wrong. Most clean sheets, most wins, looked the most solid and so what if he can't kick or throw. On goalkeeping ability this season he has been extremely good. He's hit more long passes than the others, so I'm not surprised he has the worst kicking percentage. Is that down to him or down to tactics and being told to look long? I do love that Schwarzer looks for the quick throw and is solid but Ben has kept us in a fair few games with his saves and handling. I would love Mark to stay on as GK coach and drop Stowell who I'm not sure contributes as much in the attacking/footwork department as Mark could. Then again, I'll heavily caveat that view with not knowing what goes on behind the scenes. I'm just basing in the fact that none of our keepers have really progressed while he's been at the club.
DB11 Posted 12 February 2015 Posted 12 February 2015 The worse your defence is the more shots you're going to have at you. It would therefore make sense that you'd have a higher number of shots saved. Stats can be manipulated any way you want.
Hirsty The Blue 94 Posted 12 February 2015 Posted 12 February 2015 I don't really rate Hamer to be fair. I can recount at least 3 or 4 times where he unnecessarily parried the ball and was more luck that the striker didn't get on the rebound or missed it. Mark is a better keeper, and I think these errors are down to rustiness rather than him being a poor keeper.
filbertway Posted 12 February 2015 Posted 12 February 2015 I don't really rate Hamer to be fair. I can recount at least 3 or 4 times where he unnecessarily parried the ball and was more luck that the striker didn't get on the rebound or missed it. Mark is a better keeper, and I think these errors are down to rustiness rather than him being a poor keeper. What were they just out of interest? It would be interesting to take a look at them again.
Fox92 Posted 12 February 2015 Posted 12 February 2015 Personally I don't get the Hamer love in some posters have. His distribution from balls passed back to him is truly woeful, I feel nervous everytime we pass to him. As was seen on Tuesday when we had centre backs comfortable on the ball our keeper will need to be more involved in this area of play. Hamer has good traits I admit but distribution and footwork are two very important traits and he is our worst at both imo. Only time I've been nervous with Hamer in goal was prior to the Stoke game when he was making his debut. Other than that, he's been solid for me. Distribution is poor, I agree, but a goalkeepers number one requirement is to essentially keep clean sheets and he has the most this season at our club. Maybe if we played it out from the back we wouldn't have the problem of distribution and giving the ball straight back to the opposition.
King_LCFC Posted 12 February 2015 Posted 12 February 2015 Afriad not, Hamer was unlucky to lose his place in my opinion.
whoareyaaa Posted 12 February 2015 Posted 12 February 2015 Never been a fan of any keeper who just hoofs it up the pitch, keepers should always look for the short pass or throw and build from the back instead of giving away possession straight away. I wouldn't even allow my keeper to kick it long.
TOMBlcfc Posted 12 February 2015 Posted 12 February 2015 Might be an unpopular opinion but i prefer kasper's kicks to schwarzer's. Both obv over hamer's
Charl91 Posted 12 February 2015 Posted 12 February 2015 Goals conceded (semi ignore this because of games played, but this is average over 90 minutes in each game) Schwarz - 2 Schmeichel 1.86 Hamer - 1 Saves Schwarz - 2.67 Schmeichel - 2.14 Hamer - 1.63 So really, Hamer makes 1.63 saves per goal conceded, while Schwarz only makes 1.33 saves per goal conceded.
Guest MarshallForEngland Posted 13 February 2015 Posted 13 February 2015 You don't have to be massively well-versed in statistics or mathematics to know that we simply don't have enough data on which to base a meaningful conclusion if we're just going to use stats. There are lots of other things that affect those statistics that, with only a handful of games for each of our keepers this season, could make something look statistically significant when it isn't. I've been through some of these in massive detail already and, while as always there's no shortage of dolts on here quick to go "LOL THAT DONT MAKE SENSE DERRR", I haven't actually seen anything that looks like an argument against it. Our "improvement" while Hamer was playing is best explained by the Regression Toward the Mean phenomenon; an anomalously bad run of results is likely to be followed results closer to the average. There's a lot of post-hoc reasoning going on with people claiming that just because something happened after the keeper change, it must have been caused by the keeper change.
filbertway Posted 13 February 2015 Posted 13 February 2015 I bet the keepers hate it when Stowell takes them off the pitch and into the classroom to discuss the regression toward the mean. Out of interest Marshall are you a statistician? I always assumed you were an ex keeper at a decent level as you usually are quite opinionated in the 'keeper threads. (I suppose it's possible to be both actually). Still Hamer for me, I don't think there is much between him and Schwarzer, but he can't be allowed to retain his jersey after making a couple of costly errors, especially after coming in and replacing Hamer, who has been relatively fault free.
dogadug Posted 13 February 2015 Posted 13 February 2015 Annoying because you know that whatever choice NP makes, the 'Pearson outters' will use it as another way to criticize.
ADK Posted 13 February 2015 Posted 13 February 2015 I'm not a "Pearson outter", he does get selections wrong though.
ozvaldo Posted 13 February 2015 Posted 13 February 2015 to whoever started this thread .... fvck off, cvnt. regards.
shailen Posted 13 February 2015 Posted 13 February 2015 Ulloa was the second best striker in this league after Costa based on the first six games. Stats in a sample mean nothing.
cc_star Posted 13 February 2015 Posted 13 February 2015 Ulloa was the second best striker in this league after Costa based on the first six games. Stats in a sample mean nothing. Yeah, but he actually was then
Guest MarshallForEngland Posted 13 February 2015 Posted 13 February 2015 I bet the keepers hate it when Stowell takes them off the pitch and into the classroom to discuss the regression toward the mean. Out of interest Marshall are you a statistician? I always assumed you were an ex keeper at a decent level as you usually are quite opinionated in the 'keeper threads. (I suppose it's possible to be both actually). Still Hamer for me, I don't think there is much between him and Schwarzer, but he can't be allowed to retain his jersey after making a couple of costly errors, especially after coming in and replacing Hamer, who has been relatively fault free. Ex 11-a-side keeper yes, decent level definitely not. I mostly only know what it's like to be shot at by hung-over fatties. I might be exaggerating my lack of experience for comic effect slightly, but not a lot. My defence of goalkeepers is almost entirely down to personal bias. I am not a qualified statistician, and if I was I would probably never tell anyone. I have been quite involved in debating though for quite some time, both when I was at University and on the internet where people are wrong all the time, and there are certain things you just have to know, like thispost-hoc arguments and makes pro-Homeopathy and pro-Speed-Camera nutjobs question their own existence. I have found that it's no match for Leicester City fans though, who just tell the exponent of the rebuttal to **** off and/or to stop talking sh*t. Difficult to argue with that and I have since used similar tactics in my own arguments and to great effect too.
Haydos Posted 15 February 2015 Posted 15 February 2015 Still backing Schwarzer? Made yourself look like a right tit here mate.
cc_star Posted 15 February 2015 Posted 15 February 2015 Swarzer is a clown Get the fvcj out of my team you gift giving tw@ FVCK OFF!!!!
deep blue Posted 15 February 2015 Posted 15 February 2015 Comparing the stats - Passes per game - Schwarz 23 Schmeichel 17 Ben 19 Successful passes - Schwarz - 12 Schmeichel - 8 Hamer - 7 Pass completion - Schwarz - 54% Schmeichel - 46% Hamer 38% Average Pass length Schwarz - 45% Schmeichel - 53% Hamer - 55% Ignoring clean sheets based on games played Goals conceded (semi ignore this because of games played, but this is average over 90 minutes in each game) Schwarz - 2 Schmeichel 1.86 Hamer - 1 Saves Schwarz - 2.67 Schmeichel - 2.14 Hamer - 1.63 Distrubution accuracy - Schwarz - 58% Schmeichel 48% Hamer - 41% Catches Schwarzer - 4 Schmeichel - 2 Hamer - 1 Schwarzer - 6 Schmeichel - 0 Hamer - 2 Statistically, Schwarzer is the better keeper SO FAR How he fairs after 8 games and 14 games (played by ben and kasper) will tell us more, however is it worth dropping him??? or to counter that, Is it worth us risking that schwarzer will be better for the remaining 13 games? Nonsense. The only stat here of importance is the number of goals conceded per game. Hamer wins hands down (even though they are weighted against him by the high proportion being pens) and he should therefore be first choice.
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