B Dog's Holy Thread - Bash Away

[Jaspa]

I got took into a Church when I was about 8 under the pretenses of a party and food, they sat all the kids they baited down school assembly style and started handing out bibles. I bolted out the door and ran off home.

 

Also had one side of my familly involved in organised religion, got took to their local place of worship and handed a kiddy bible at around 4 or 5 and remember saying I liked the drawings of the giraffe and got huffed at for not graveling at the preachings. They were abit mad tbh, they cut you off if you dont follow what they do, got a  cheque for a hundred quid of that side of my famillys grandparents when I was 10 and never saw them since. The other side of my family is the opposite though and are free thinkers and considerably more stable.

 

My own views on God are complex and hard to really put down to words on here, I think it is natural in a way to believe on a benevolent, omnipotent force overlooking everything because we dont have control of everything and look for the answers, we are delicate creatures in the tubble dryer of the universe and our own brains to not look for understanding leaves people hollow. I would not like to say I flatly dont believe in the ideal God as that would make things comfortable, the thought of death being it has spooked me since I was little, I told myself I'd find a way to avoid it before I went sleep some nights, since Ive only got closer unfortunately lads. You can believe in what ever you like, just dont try to change other peoples beliefs and dont harm people for it

[Merging Cultures]

I believe there is a God. This is not a choice, I just believe, I don't know why. I can't however CHOOSE to believe the Christian Deity because I find it absurd. I do not have a choice, there is no choice where belief is concerned.

Can I ask you a question, Give me something you do not believe in i.e ghosts etc

Ghosts... There is an after world and Angels... So...

Santa? Used to exist, now doesn't.

Tooth fairy? Never existed.

Easter bunny? See tooth fairy.

The facts about Jesus are too overwhelming. He lived and died. However, in my opinion, he also rose again and showed himself to 500 people, and since then the holy spirit has been with us.

[Benguin]

Ghosts... There is an after world and Angels... So...

Santa? Used to exist, now doesn't.

Tooth fairy? Never existed.

Easter bunny? See tooth fairy.

The facts about Jesus are too overwhelming. He lived and died. However, in my opinion, he also rose again and showed himself to 500 people, and since then the holy spirit has been with us.

 

The facts that Jesus existed are not overwhelming, but yes you'd be hard pressed to find a scholar that would deny that Jesus lived historically. There is also a lot of agreement that he was killed on the cross for Blasphemy. The problem is the evidence suggesting that he did not resurrect is just as prominent as the evidence that he did. You have seen this evidence and believe, I have seen this evidence and disbelieve. We both want Jesus's gift of eternal life but one of us believes and one of us doesn't. How can we both want the same thing but have apposing beliefs? Because there is no choice!

 

The examples you gave weren't really the kind I had in mind. I need something you do not believe in that is not already disproven i.e we know as a fact that the tooth fairy doesn't put money under our pillows. Something that can be either way like religion.

[Merging Cultures]

The facts that Jesus existed are not overwhelming, but yes you'd be hard pressed to find a scholar that would deny that Jesus lived historically. There is also a lot of agreement that he was killed on the cross for Blasphemy. The problem is the evidence suggesting that he did not resurrect is just as prominent as the evidence that he did. You have seen this evidence and believe, I have seen this evidence and disbelieve. We both want Jesus's gift of eternal life but one of us believes and one of us doesn't. How can we both want the same thing but have apposing beliefs? Because there is no choice!

The examples you gave weren't really the kind I had in mind. I need something you do not believe in that is not already disproven i.e we know as a fact that the tooth fairy doesn't put money under our pillows. Something that can be either way like religion.

As you attest, the historical facts are strong. And as I said, in my opinion, I believe he rose again. I never said there are facts for that, it is the testimony, of men and my personal experience, which I can't present as fact.

I'm not sure how you can want Jesus' gift of eternal life if you don't believe. Perhaps, you think it would be nice to have if it were true?

I think you are going to have to present something to me to see if I believe in it or not.

[Benguin]

As you attest, the historical facts are strong. And as I said, in my opinion, I believe he rose again. I never said there are facts for that, it is the testimony, of men and my personal experience, which I can't present as fact.

I think you are going to have to present something to me to see if I believe in it or not.

 

 

The bible teaches us that the only way to God is through Jesus. It also teaches us about this freewill over choice that we arguing about.

 

Tell me how a person born in an Islamic country, before the internet existed, whose whole family are subscribed to the Muslim faith, is blind, death and socially inept can find and choose Jesus?  

 

Tell me why it is illegal to try and convert Muslims to Christianity in certain countries? Surely God is giving the children of these places a very unfair shot at making the right choice?

 

There is NO choice.

 

I am not trying to argue whether as a Christian you are right, this can never be concluded but I am trying to argue that you can not choose to believe. It is not possible.

[Merging Cultures]

The bible teaches us that the only way to God is through Jesus. It also teaches us about this freewill over choice that we arguing about.

Tell me how a person born in an Islamic country, before the internet existed, whose whole family are subscribed to the Muslim faith, is blind, death and socially inept can find and choose Jesus?

Tell me why it is illegal to try and convert Muslims to Christianity in certain countries? Surely God is giving the children of these places a very unfair shot at making the right choice?

There is NO choice.

I am not trying to argue whether as a Christian you are right, this can never be concluded but I am trying to argue that you can not choose to believe. It is not possible.

I don't think anyone thinks people can just choose like that. It would be illogical for someone who hasn't heard the Good News to know about Jesus. God is fair and just. We can't comprehend how He judges people.

[Benguin]

I don't think anyone thinks people can just choose like that. It would be illogical for someone who hasn't heard the Good News to know about Jesus. God is fair and just. We can't comprehend how He judges people.

 

 

The Bible says the ONLY way to God is through Jesus

 

Therefore, they have to choose Jesus but God has created a world where it is possible to be suppressed from the knowledge of Jesus.

 

SO.....

 

Either there is no choice

 

Or.......

 

Jesus was lying when he said this

[Merging Cultures]

The Bible says the ONLY way to God is through Jesus

Therefore, they have to choose Jesus but God has created a world where it is possible to be suppressed from the knowledge of Jesus.

SO.....

Either there is no choice

Or.......

Jesus was lying when he said this

A quick cut and paste "It is God’s desire that none “should perish but that all should come to repentance” (II Peter 3:9, KJV). This indicates that God also cares for those persons who have not heard the gospel. He has demonstrated this by sending His Son to die in their place. “While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8, KJV)."

For those who have heard the Gospel, yes Jesus is the way... Etc.

[fleckneymike]

The Bible says the ONLY way to God is through Jesus

 

Therefore, they have to choose Jesus but God has created a world where it is possible to be suppressed from the knowledge of Jesus.

 

SO.....

 

Either there is no choice

 

Or.......

 

Jesus was lying when he said this

 

Depends on which bible you read.

 

Depends on which branch of Christianity you follow.

 

Predestination was/is a big thing

[Guest ttfn]

Most people think I am an Athiest because I go out of my way to argue with theists. I know several religious people and love debating with them.

If you love debating it so much why don't you give it a go rather than just shouting at Merging Cultures and hitting him with straw men?

[Charl91]

I have a question about Christianity.

 

Why does Jesus hate fig trees? 

[lavrentis]

I have a question about Christianity.

 

Why does Jesus hate fig trees? 

 

cause he wanted a fig and there were no figs to eat

[Charl91]

cause he wanted a fig and there were no figs to eat

 

But it wasn't even the bloody season for figs!

 

Talk about throwing your toys out of the pram.

[Benguin]

If you love debating it so much why don't you give it a go rather than just shouting at Merging Cultures and hitting him with straw men?

 

 

 

I was under the impression we were debating. Generally when two people disagree it can be perceived by others as a shouting match however.

 

 

Depends on which bible you read.

 

Depends on which branch of Christianity you follow.

 

Predestination was/is a big thing

 

This is a separate debate. Over time Christianity has changed with the development of knowledge, it realises parts cant be right so has to adapt. I therefore only see those who subscribe to sola scriptura as actual Christians which is ironic as they are the most laughable.

 

 

A quick cut and paste "It is God’s desire that none “should perish but that all should come to repentance” (II Peter 3:9, KJV). This indicates that God also cares for those persons who have not heard the gospel. He has demonstrated this by sending His Son to die in their place. “While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8, KJV)."

For those who have heard the Gospel, yes Jesus is the way... Etc.

Getting into heaven is not based on whether our good outweighs our bad; we will all lose out if that is the case. "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6). We can do nothing good to earn our way to heaven (Titus 3:5).

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it" (Matthew 7:13). Even if everyone else is living a life of sin in a culture where trusting in God is not popular, God will not excuse it. "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient" (Ephesians 2:1-2).

Right back at you. The Bible has many of these problems where one rule is tarnished by a later extract.

 

[fleckneymike]

This is a separate debate. Over time Christianity has changed with the development of knowledge, it realises parts cant be right so has to adapt. I therefore only see those who subscribe to sola scriptura as actual Christians which is ironic as they are the most laughable.

 

 

A rather niche position you're picking for yourself there which renders any debate you wish to have almost futile as you wish to discuss faith according to parameters which you (a man without faith) insist others follow.

 

You are also dependent upon which 'scripture' translation you follow, if all versions were identical there'd be no schisms within the faith.

 

In addition the bible makes no claim to be the sole source of faith/truth so the position of sola scriptura is somewhat problematic.

[Merging Cultures]

I was under the impression we were debating. Generally when two people disagree it can be perceived by others as a shouting match however.

This is a separate debate. Over time Christianity has changed with the development of knowledge, it realises parts cant be right so has to adapt. I therefore only see those who subscribe to sola scriptura as actual Christians which is ironic as they are the most laughable.

Getting into heaven is not based on whether our good outweighs our bad; we will all lose out if that is the case. "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6). We can do nothing good to earn our way to heaven (Titus 3:5).

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it" (Matthew 7:13). Even if everyone else is living a life of sin in a culture where trusting in God is not popular, God will not excuse it. "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient" (Ephesians 2:1-2).

Right back at you. The Bible has many of these problems where one rule is tarnished by a later extract.

I don't see your quotes as opposite.

It is by grace that we are saved, and what I posted was that we will have the opportunity to repent. So even if our actions are inexcusable, we can be forgiven. That doesn't mean he approves of whatever we might have done.

[Bettsj2]

I don't see your quotes as opposite.

It is by grace that we are saved, and what I posted was that we will have the opportunity to repent. So even if our actions are inexcusable, we can be forgiven. That doesn't mean he approves of whatever we might have done.

So he'll always forgive us if we repent but he'll hold it against us if it was something he really didnt like?

Sounds like the wife.

#Jesusbantz

[Merging Cultures]

So he'll always forgive us if we repent but he'll hold it against us if it was something he really didnt like?

Sounds like the wife.

#Jesusbantz

No, you'd be forgiven, which means not holding it against you.

But I get what you are saying... When the wife says, "sure, do whatever you want to do". You know that means, "if you do it, I'll not talk to you for the next week".

[Benguin]

A rather niche position you're picking for yourself there which renders any debate you wish to have almost futile as you wish to discuss faith according to parameters which you (a man without faith) insist others follow.

 

You are also dependent upon which 'scripture' translation you follow, if all versions were identical there'd be no schisms within the faith.

 

In addition the bible makes no claim to be the sole source of faith/truth so the position of sola scriptura is somewhat problematic.

 

You can't claim to have faith in God, in my opinion, and submit yourself to Jesus by listening to the Bible and not subscribe to Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura means that you take the Bible as Law. How can anyone use the teaching of the bible as a way of life but say hang on a minute, I don't believe that part of it. All or nothing imo. But hey these are our opinions.

 

I also think that a true Christian should learn the tongue of the Bible and not rely on all these different translations.

[Merging Cultures]

You can't claim to have faith in God, in my opinion, and submit yourself to Jesus by listening to the Bible and not subscribe to Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura means that you take the Bible as Law. How can anyone use the teaching of the bible as a way of life but say hang on a minute, I don't believe that part of it. All or nothing imo. But hey these are our opinions.

I also think that a true Christian should learn the tongue of the Bible and not rely on all these different translations.

Fortunately the laws are easier to follow since Jesus came on the scene!

Learning the original language of the bible isn't necessary, but it is a good idea to look at several versions and use bible study guides to explain things. I've been reading an academic intro to the New Testament. Very very interesting.

[Benguin]

Fortunately the laws are easier to follow since Jesus came on the scene!

Learning the original language of the bible isn't necessary, but it is a good idea to look at several versions and use bible study guides to explain things. I've been reading an academic intro to the New Testament. Very very interesting.

 

Jesus did not die on the cross so that we CAN sin. He did it because God understands that we are sinners and needed to save us. As a Christian you cant do what you want and say you're sorry. You have to try as hard as you can to not sin in the first place.

[Merging Cultures]

Jesus did not die on the cross so that we CAN sin. He did it because God understands that we are sinners and needed to save us. As a Christian you cant do what you want and say you're sorry. You have to try as hard as you can to not sin in the first place.

Exactly.

My point was making light of the laws of the old testament, not mixing fibres in clothing, circumcision etc. I suspect you knew that though.

[MPH]

The bible teaches us that the only way to God is through Jesus. It also teaches us about this freewill over choice that we arguing about.

 

Tell me how a person born in an Islamic country, before the internet existed, whose whole family are subscribed to the Muslim faith, is blind, death and socially inept can find and choose Jesus?  

 

Tell me why it is illegal to try and convert Muslims to Christianity in certain countries? Surely God is giving the children of these places a very unfair shot at making the right choice?

 

There is NO choice.

 

I am not trying to argue whether as a Christian you are right, this can never be concluded but I am trying to argue that you can not choose to believe. It is not possible.

 

 

Romans 1:20

 

For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

 

 

EDIT: i'd love to ad more to this discussion but im still at work and its been a crazy day at work and ill be going home shortly to a 2 year old a 6 week old and a sick wife!

 

[Buce]

Romans 1:20

For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

EDIT: i'd love to ad more to this discussion but im still at work and its been a crazy day at work and ill be going home shortly to a 2 year old a 6 week old and a sick wife!

Priorities, mate.

Take care of the family, FT will still be here.

[fleckneymike]

Jesus did not die on the cross so that we CAN sin. He did it because God understands that we are sinners and needed to save us. As a Christian you cant do what you want and say you're sorry. You have to try as hard as you can to not sin in the first place.

 

Sola fide