The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Izzy]

wanted to make it anonymous like a real vote so that no one can see who voted for who.

 

thought it was best that way to stop argument really. we have this thread for debate and that one is the vote. 

 

that made sense to me honestly. 

 

Fair enough mate, I understand   I'm just a nosey cvnt 

[Strokes]

I've never known a vote in any country where people are so open about which way they're going to vote.

I keep my cards close to my chest.

[Alf Bentley]

I'd call tonight's debate a score draw.

 

As Farage was always the one more likely to make a serious gaffe - but didn't - then Leave will probably count that as a success.

 

Farage did seem slightly tetchy at moments and Cameron was the smoother performer - but one person's "smooth" is another person's "oily". As someone who doesn't like either of their politics, I actually find Cameron comes across as less trustworthy and more irritating, like a smooth, but not entirely honest car salesman trying to make a sale (apologies to any car salesmen on here - I'm sure some of you are very straight and honest).

 

The debate did concentrate on immigration a lot, didn't it? Almost half the questions, it seemed. I know it's an important issue, but the debate is - or should be - much wider than that, so that was surprising. Not sure which side that helps or hinders, though. Possibly helps Leave by pushing it up the agenda - but not if they or Farage are perceived as obsessed with the issue, putting off undecided voters who are looking at EU v. Brexit more widely.

 

As an undecided Left-oriented voter, Cameron didn't produce any arguments to appeal to lefties who might vote Remain - nothing about social/employment rights, the environment etc. He does realise that this isn't just a debate within the Tory party or within the centre-right, doesn't he? A whole slab of the population votes Labour, Lib Dem, Green or whatever.....he does realise that we have a vote in this referendum, too, doesn't he? Though he did mention Scotland potentially leaving the UK, to be fair.

 

Farage did slightly better on that front, referring to the Eurozone being in a mess, especially southern Europe, and to the EU's hard line on Greece. His tactic to deal with "90% of experts" supporting Remain was decent, too - pointing out that many of the same people had failed to foresee (or been implicated in) the 2008 crash and had supported the UK joining the Euro.

 

Can't see that debate having a lot of impact either way, though.

[theessexfox]

I'd call tonight's debate a score draw.

 

As Farage was always the one more likely to make a serious gaffe - but didn't - then Leave will probably count that as a success.

 

Farage did seem slightly tetchy at moments and Cameron was the smoother performer - but one person's "smooth" is another person's "oily". As someone who doesn't like either of their politics, I actually find Cameron comes across as less trustworthy and more irritating, like a smooth, but not entirely honest car salesman trying to make a sale (apologies to any car salesmen on here - I'm sure some of you are very straight and honest).

 

The debate did concentrate on immigration a lot, didn't it? Almost half the questions, it seemed. I know it's an important issue, but the debate is - or should be - much wider than that, so that was surprising. Not sure which side that helps or hinders, though. Possibly helps Leave by pushing it up the agenda - but not if they or Farage are perceived as obsessed with the issue, putting off undecided voters who are looking at EU v. Brexit more widely.

 

As an undecided Left-oriented voter, Cameron didn't produce any arguments to appeal to lefties who might vote Remain - nothing about social/employment rights, the environment etc. He does realise that this isn't just a debate within the Tory party or within the centre-right, doesn't he? A whole slab of the population votes Labour, Lib Dem, Green or whatever.....he does realise that we have a vote in this referendum, too, doesn't he? Though he did mention Scotland potentially leaving the UK, to be fair.

 

Farage did slightly better on that front, referring to the Eurozone being in a mess, especially southern Europe, and to the EU's hard line on Greece. His tactic to deal with "90% of experts" supporting Remain was decent, too - pointing out that many of the same people had failed to foresee (or been implicated in) the 2008 crash and had supported the UK joining the Euro.

 

Can't see that debate having a lot of impact either way, though.

Worth watching on catch up (once these exams are finally out of the way)?

[Alf Bentley]

Worth watching on catch up (once these exams are finally out of the way)?

 

 

Probably only if you're a politics student/obsessive. I wouldn't expect a lot of enlightenment, and unlikely to be a crucial moment in the campaign, I'd say.

 

Another tactic of Cameron's that I forgot to mention: kept expressing frustration at the EU, but saying that it was in our interest to keep engaged - i.e. quite a negative stance.

Presumably that's tailored for undecided voters who are critical of the EU, but might be worried about a step in the dark. Quite cunning, but as "Remain" voters tend to be less committed, I'm not sure it'll help turnout - which they need to be high.

[theessexfox]

Probably only if you're a politics student/obsessive. I wouldn't expect a lot of enlightenment, and unlikely to be a crucial moment in the campaign, I'd say.

 

Another tactic of Cameron's that I forgot to mention: kept expressing frustration at the EU, but saying that it was in our interest to keep engaged - i.e. quite a negative stance.

Presumably that's tailored for undecided voters who are critical of the EU, but might be worried about a step in the dark. Quite cunning, but as "Remain" voters tend to be less committed, I'm not sure it'll help turnout - which they need to be high.

Might watch it before the government side of my government and politics exam tomorrow   though like you said, I don't expect much substance, so perhaps not. Cheers.

[Guest MattP]

Been away for a week in London and just about caught up on most of the EU shows, debates, referendum news and I think we are about done now, I think the case for economics has been won by remain (Cameron's whole pitch last night seemed to be based on it) - I think the case for most others things has been won by Leave. People now have to go on what they believe is more important.

 

Agree with the viewpoint on Hilary Benn a couple of people made, what a contrast from the man who made that brilliant speech on Syria, they should put a picture next to the word "rambling" of him in the dictionary, I don't think think he answered a question directly in the whole 30 minutes and he had absolutely answers to any of the points given, great of Neil to give us some actual facts about holiday pay etc which are protected more strongly by the British government than the EU.

 

Thrac said it was an easy 1-0 to Neil and it was, but this is Andrew Neil and I'm pretty certain he'll win the four debates 4-0 as that's what he does, I can't wait to see him take on Osborne tonight, he's been gunning for Gideon for years and he's never let himself be interviewed.

 

Onto last night how how peculiar to see someone who advocates more skilled immigration from African commonwealth countries and less from exclusively white Eastern European countries be accused of racism towards black people by that audience member?

 

Hard to put into words how much Cameron angered me with his ending, why does wanting Britain to become an independent nation state again make me a “little Englander”? He's doing his best to lose all those votes he won back last year, hopefully he's gone whatever after this and not a day too soon.

 

On the result I'm just starting to think we can nick this again (although if offered I'd still take 51-49% remain to keep the issue so alive), the last week is going to be horrific though if "leave" is ahead in the polls, the rules of purdah will be in tatters and the government machine will go into absolute overdrive, we'll literally have a week of everyone being told they will lose their job and a vote to leave means you are worse than the Hitler.

 

P.S People are really starting to annoy me now saying they don't know how to vote and they "haven't had enough information" - it's been front page and headline news for weeks, you've seen all the arguments from all sides, if you still don't think you have information don't bother voting. What these people really mean is a televised debate is a long watch that takes some concentration and they can't look up from their phones for a bit to engage in it.

[Guest MattP]

Oh and Alf is spot on by the way, Farage's big moment and he didn't say or do anything absolutely ridiculous that could smear the leave side as racist, despite the attempts of that audience member. (Who has actually been found to be a Huff post blogger, diversity expert and broadcaster)

 

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13346601_1087898264615299_2413418724930845748_n.jpg?oh=e6e04006c2461e82364a117bc899271e&oe=57D77D6E

[ramboacdc]

the poll so far is showing that we are just as divided! its nealy 50/50! i honestly couldn't believe it. 

[Guest MattP]

the poll so far is showing that we are just as divided! its nealy 50/50! i honestly couldn't believe it. 

 

44-43

 

This is going to be tight as fcuk isn't it?

[ramboacdc]

44-43

 

This is going to be tight as fcuk isn't it?

its now 50/50 at 44 each. unbelievable really. 

[Guest MattP]

Well what a surprise, it wasn't a audience picked at random.

 

For all the slagging off Sky get at least they use independent polling companies to set audiences for these things unlike the two main broadcasters.

 

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/08/race-baiting-farage-questioner-itv-invited-black-podcast/

[leicsmac]

Well what a surprise, it wasn't a audience picked at random.

 

For all the slagging off Sky get at least they use independent polling companies to set audiences for these things unlike the two main broadcasters.

 

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/08/race-baiting-farage-questioner-itv-invited-black-podcast/

 

This might be poisoning-the-well fallacy Matt, but I wouldn't trust Breitbart as a source any more than I would trust Salon. 

[Guest MattP]

This might be poisoning-the-well fallacy Matt, but I wouldn't trust Breitbart as a source any more than I would trust Salon. 

 

She said it on the Radio with Gaunt this morning, can listen to it there.

 

https://audioboom.com/boos/4668946-imriel-morgan-from-last-night-s-itv-debate-explains-herself-8th-june-pod-two

[leicsmac]

She said it on the Radio with Gaunt this morning, can listen to it there.

 

https://audioboom.com/boos/4668946-imriel-morgan-from-last-night-s-itv-debate-explains-herself-8th-june-pod-two

 

Pretty clear that her slant was designed to be antagonistic towards Farage then, the radio show host being the UK equivalent of Rush Limbaugh notwithstanding.

[Guest MattP]

Pretty clear that her slant was designed to be antagonistic towards Farage then

 

Of course it was, so for them claim you have put together an independent audience and to be found to have hand picked someone who runs a "black podcast" (whatever that is) and claims to be an expert in diversity is quite obscene.

 

As I've said before, playing the "you hate blacks" card quite a ridiculous thing to do as well given Farage is campaigning against almost exclusively white immigration for this debate.

[leicsmac]

Of course it was, so for them claim you have put together an independent audience and to be found to have hand picked someone who runs a "black podcast" (whatever that is) and claims to be an expert in diversity is quite obscene.

 

As I've said before, playing the "you hate blacks" card quite a ridiculous thing to do as well given Farage is campaigning against almost exclusively white immigration for this debate.

 

No disagreement there. And I actually don't think Farage is a xenophobe.

 

I think it's a bit rich of Stormfront-lite-Breitbart to use the example of one member of the audience as an attempt to discredit the entire debate, though.

[Guest MattP]

Stormfront like? Wtf

Isn't Raheem Kassan in charge of the UK website now?

[Strokes]

No disagreement there. And I actually don't think Farage is a xenophobe.

 

I think it's a bit rich of Stormfront-lite-Breitbart to use the example of one member of the audience as an attempt to discredit the entire debate, though.

It's worrying that we know they were trying to dictate the direction of the debate though, this might be the only stooge but we need to know what we seen (I've not seen it yet) was real and fair. Otherwise it should be discredited.

[Guest MattP]

Mac that's the worst piece of hyperbole I've seen for some time, representatives or writers for Brietbart have been invited onto the Daily Politics, Andrew Marr show, BBC and Sky Paper Reviews etc

 

I can promise you that courtesy wouldn't be extended to a writer from Stormfront. Being right leaning doesn't make you a Nazi or White Supremacist.

[leicsmac]

It's worrying that we know they were trying to dictate the direction of the debate though, this might be the only stooge but we need to know what we seen (I've not seen it yet) was real and fair. Otherwise it should be discredited.

 

We know nothing of the sort. We know simply that the agitator has left wing sympathies and writes for the HuffPost - everything else regarding whether or not ITV intended her to be a plant and to do what she did etc is entirely speculative.

 

Breitbart picked up the ball and ran with it, fair enough, but there's a lot more information needed before active tampering as you describe becomes the truth of the matter.

 

Mac that's the worst piece of hyperbole I've seen for some time, representatives or writers for Brietbart have been invited onto the Daily Politics, Andrew Marr show, BBC and Sky Paper Reviews etc

 

I can promise you that courtesy wouldn't be extended to a writer from Stormfront. Being right leaning doesn't make you a Nazi or White Supremacist.

 

Yeah, I did perhaps allow too much hyperbole there. Casting too much aspersion on the comment sections of the news stories there rather than the stories themselves. The writers themselves seem to be firmly right-wing, but not as far right as I suggested.

 

I stand by the more moderated thought that Breitbart is what you read when you think the Daily Mail is a little bit too pinko, though. Just like Salon is what you read when you think the Grauniad is in the pocket of the Man.

[Footballwipe]

ITV did themselves no favours last night with having questions that then gave way for a platform for unlimited follow-ups and interruptions from the questioner.

 

They obviously had people deeply from both camps doing the questioning for NF and DC, this was totally unnecessary. No-one is going to change their mind now. In fact, the audience and debate last night once again affirmed the paranoia of some from both sides.

 

What last night needed was questions that were most pressing for the floating voters. Timed answers, follow ups from the moderator only (mainly to pick on anyone's BS). What good is it when every questioner had an agenda?

 

EDIT: I thought Etchingham was utterly useless last night, as she was for the General Election debate last year. No control.

[The Railway Man]

Waas I the only one gutted when I realised it wasnt a debate?

[Guest MattP]

EDIT: I thought Etchingham was utterly useless last night, as she was for the General Election debate last year. No control.

 

Utterly hopeless, ITV just can't do politics. Peston is the only one who should have anywhere near that stage last night.

[Thracian]

In terms of confident delivery and subject awareness Cameron and Farage were well matched.

 

It was disappointing that the debate host allowed so much interrupting of Farage's answers when there was virtually none with Cameron, although I wouldn't say the host was intentionally unfair.

 

The female irritant in the audience  was never intent on listening nor being stopped from stiffling Farage's answers  with her own input.         

 

But in terms of what was said by the two opponents Farage finished the stronger.

 

On immigration Farage promoted kind of points system I've long advocated. Cameron had no ammunition to combat his failure to deliver on his promise of reducing immigration but, worse still, gave no indication that the situation would improve except in our ability to deport serious criminals more easily if he's to be believed which I've become more inclined to doubt on recent performance and on several subjects.

 

And quite how the immigratant flow will be contained when Cameron warmly welcomes Turkey into the EU fold is beyond comprehension so even the evidence casts doubt on Cameron's declared aims.

 

 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2867835/I-d-welcome-Turkey-EU-says-PM-Cameron-says-remains-long-standing-goal-country-join-despite-drive-reduce-net-migration.html

 

Cameron did score with his comment about Scottish reaction if we vote "leave" and about the serious (though highly dubious) point that we're better off fighting from inside the EU than  trying to be good for England and Europe on the outside. 

 

But, while a summary of the above might have pointed to a draw, Cameron suffered badly in the NHS debate when the questioner pilloried him without mercilessly. His wound got worse with the newpaper report that followed about the leak from Europe about the NHS:

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/666454/NHS-EU-killed-off-Brexit-Remain-Leave-referendum-Brussels-European-Union

          

Altogether I heard very little to convince me we'll be better served in Europe and rather more to be said for being good but independent Europeans like Norway and Switzerland.

 

And the feeling strengthens when I read of EU bullies like Juncker holding a gun to our citizens heads in an expression of total contempt for ours and any other democracy. 

 

http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/deserters-wont-be-welcomed-back-with-open-arms-juncker-warns-britain/

 

Because I'd far rather have British independence than another minute of Juncker's threats. He reminds me of Blair and so many others who invent a truth when it suits them, and Juncker's own words confirm it:

 

. When it becomes serious, you have to lie.

— Juncker when asked about Greece's economic crisis.[31][34]

 

As a Master of Law (for all that he's never practiced) I wonder what that says for his degree and the respect we're supposed to have for the European Court or the application of European laws? 

 

Seems to me that he'd justify anything if it suited him. When you think of other political leaders who did that to serve their own ends that's quite a chilly thought.

 

More than that I sure hope he doesn't threaten Putin anytime soon. Cos that would make a mockery of claims we'll "be safer in Europe".

 

Irrelevent?  Don't anyone believe it?