Nick Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Leaving the EU will likely do nothing to curb immigration - surely any replacement trade agreement will require freedom of movement between us and other borders anyway.... It's just a smokescreen playing on the values and fears of middle England and its up there with 'increases in rapes and sexual assaults unless we Brexit crap"
Guest MattP Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Leaving the EU will likely do nothing to curb immigration - surely any replacement trade agreement will require freedom of movement between us and other borders anyway.... It's just a smokescreen playing on the values and fears of middle England and its up there with 'increases in rapes and sexual assaults unless we Brexit crap" Why would it? The EU has trade agreements with countries all over the World, none of whom have freedom of movement with it. It's also not about "curbing" immigration, it's about controlling it and giving us the chance to decide who we want in the country, accessing who and what we need and then making preparations to accomodate that number.
Nick Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Why would it? The EU has trade agreements with countries all over the World, none of whom have freedom of movement with it. It's also not about "curbing" immigration, it's about controlling it and giving us the chance to decide who we want in the country, accessing who and what we need and then making preparations to accomodate that number. Most immigrants entering the country have worked lined up (eighty odd percent anyway) The problem is illegal immigrants and leaving the EU will not necessarily solve that.
Guest MattP Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Most immigrants entering the country have worked lined up (eighty odd percent anyway) The problem is illegal immigrants and leaving the EU will not necessarily solve that. Not disputing the top line, the problem with that is they are mainly low skilled jobs that could easily be filled by home grown workers, we have places in this country where unemployment still very high and these people can't be left to rot, it's not right that the lower end of the jobs market is saturated to keep wages low and it's absolutely terrible rich countries take educated young people from poorer ones to pour £3 coffee in tax dodging shops. One of my favourite politicians, the honourable member for Bolsover, Denis Skinner, said in a speech that freedom of movement was never about letting people look for jobs across the continent, it was about supplying workers for capitalist big businesses and he was right. Illegal immigration is a huge problem but yeah, totally difference issue.
Nick Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Not disputing the top line, the problem with that is they are mainly low skilled jobs that could easily be filled by home grown workers, we have places in this country where unemployment still very high and these people can't be left to rot, it's not right that the lower end of the jobs market is saturated to keep wages low and it's absolutely terrible rich countries take educated young people from poorer ones to pour £3 coffee in tax dodging shops. One of my favourite politicians, the honourable member for Bolsover, Denis Skinner, said in a speech that freedom of movement was never about letting people look for jobs across the continent, it was about supplying workers for capitalist big businesses and he was right. Illegal immigration is a huge problem but yeah, totally difference issue. Home grown workers? We have a long history of immigration from firstly Jewish and then Black communities to undertake jobs that 'home grown' subjects don't wish to do. You want a thriving economy.... You need people to do the low paid work - and England simply doesn't have a willing workforce to cover that.
Guest MattP Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Home grown workers? We have a long history of immigration from firstly Jewish and then Black communities to undertake jobs that 'home grown' subjects don't wish to do. You want a thriving economy.... You need people to do the low paid work - and England simply doesn't have a willing workforce to cover that. Then if we need them we can do exactly what we did when those Jewish and Black communitues arrived and invite what we need in to cover those jobs, then we can also plan for housing, public services etc You've pretty much just made my point for me, it seems to have worked well at that time you talk about, whereas it isn't working well now. Having a long history of immigration isn't really an argument for open borders to unskilled migration. I doubt those times you were talking about also involved 330,000 people arriving in a year.
Nick Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Then if we need them we can do exactly what we did when those Jewish and Black communitues arrived and invite what we need in to cover those jobs, then we can also plan for housing, public services etc You've pretty much just made my point for me, it seems to have worked well at that time you talk about, whereas it isn't working well now. No I haven't. And it didn't work well - it caused confusion separation division and inequality. And if people coming to this country are readily finding work how will a points system help - the need is present and identified?
Thracian Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Leaving the EU will likely do nothing to curb immigration - surely any replacement trade agreement will require freedom of movement between us and other borders anyway.... It's just a smokescreen playing on the values and fears of middle England and its up there with 'increases in rapes and sexual assaults unless we Brexit crap" Is that to suggest working class English don't care for the wellbeing of their youngsters and whether they're raped or assaulted? Get real. Perhaps as real as the rapes and assaults you make sound so trite yet which some people live with every day of their lives, including right now in respect of two friends...one in Leicester and one in Birmingham.
Thracian Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Home grown workers? We have a long history of immigration from firstly Jewish and then Black communities to undertake jobs that 'home grown' subjects don't wish to do. You want a thriving economy.... You need people to do the low paid work - and England simply doesn't have a willing workforce to cover that. There's an abundance of people to do such work.
Nick Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Is that to suggest working class English don't care for the wellbeing of their youngsters and whether they're raped or assaulted? Get real. Perhaps as real as the rapes and assaults you make sound so trite yet which some people live with every day of their lives, including right now in respect of two friends...one in Leicester and one in Birmingham. Tony I sometimes wonder what you are smoking.
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Let's be honest - something the government will never say due to its stated policy or this argument is the fact as a country we probably need the levels of immigration that is happening at this moment - both to fill skilled and unskilled work. For a start, there's the population imbalance with a growing pensioner age needing more workers of all kinds to fund our promises to them. Secondly, there are clear gaps in the labour market for all kinds of skilled and unskilled jobs. Let's face it - if there were no jobs people could compete for and obtain they couldn't stay (which I thought made Andrew Neil's question on the Daily Politics about whether anyone had been forcibly removed after 6 months largely irrelevant - if someone can afford to stay 6 months without a job, they're probably quite well off in the first place.) So there are possibly two arguments here, one about 'control' and the other about 'numbers'. Now it's important to point out that you could have more defined 'control' but with the same level of numbers and equally, you could feasibly reduce the numbers without the defined 'control' - for example, there is a lot of talk about a housing crisis at the moment. Well if that is truly the case, what we will find is the levels of immigration will be forced down, because there won't be enough places for people to live even if there is the work available. The planning for services argument is a little misleading as well - because any decent local planner would have an understanding of what a facilities catchment area is and look to ensure those facilities are fit to cater for need accordingly for at least a 10-25 year period (taking into account any potential housing developments / growth in population in the area over the period). I would suggest our ability to 'plan' for our services has been undermined by changes to planning laws, meaning less consideration is given to the merits of developments (some red tape / slowing of process can be of benefit) and the merging / closure of local services, forcing a wider catchment area, especially when those decisions concern existing facilities that were never designed for the new increased catchment area. It's also strange that this was never a real problem for the majority of people for 30-35 years before now - which to me cements the idea these issues have more to do with decisions at national level.
Guest MattP Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Let's be honest - something the government will never say due to its stated policy or this argument is the fact as a country we probably need the levels of immigration that is happening at this moment - both to fill skilled and unskilled work. For a start, there's the population imbalance with a growing pensioner age needing more workers of all kinds to fund our promises to them. The top line is a great point, slightly different argument but a lot of people now on the Brexit side in the Tory party believe Osborne needs to sustain a low wage economy to deliver the growth and reduce the deficit his whole career now depends on. It's for a new thread but population imbalance is a very interesting subject, we need more young people to pay for the old, problem is then they get old, so it becomes a neverending situation.
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 The top line is a great point, slightly different argument but a lot of people now on the Brexit side in the Tory party believe Osborne needs to sustain a low wage economy to deliver the growth and reduce the deficit his whole career now depends on. It's for a new thread but population imbalance is a very interesting subject, we need more young people to pay for the old, problem is then they get old, so it becomes a neverending situation. Well if you consider the two ways you achieve growth - one is by doing things more efficiently, the other is by doing more - and with our record low productivity levels, you can tell how we're achiving growth (hence more people are needed). The fact this vote is even close is largely down to the Tory party trapping itself by some of the avenues it's gone down to get itself into power (short term policy doesn't bode well for long term gain) and crowing about immigration is the biggest of them. The other thing that is worth considering - I can't imagine anyone would argue against someone's right to go from one town to another to find a job or from Scotland to England? Well that is freedom of movement in action - so the EU freedom of movement is essentially a larger version of that - but many don't see it like that, possibly because language barriers prevent people from making full use of this valuable right. One thing we could do to get immigration turning the other way? Focus on upping our schools focus on foreign languages (funnily enough that would also aid the learning / understanding of our own native tounge), so that our youngsters have more opportunity not just within our little island but all across Europe. Ensure we are exporting greatness in the thousands!
The Railway Man Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Send our kids across the continent to work? They already have youth unemployment at over 20% in France, 35% in Spain, 35% in Italy and over 50% in Greece.How much more misery do the richer nations of the EU want to inflict on the poorer ones? We should be ashamed of ourselves, the people behind this are killing the young people of Europe and they need to stop before we start to get some very unpleasant governments being elected.
Guest MattP Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Just to counter you Barry and give a alternative viewpoint to it only being close because of the Tories immigration policies, if Corbyn was actually campaigning for what he really wanted, the socialist case for Brexit - the remain camp would probably be struggling to hit 40%.
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Just to counter you Barry and give a alternative viewpoint to it only being close because of the Tories immigration policies, if Corbyn was actually campaigning for what he really wanted, the socialist case for Brexit - the remain camp would probably be struggling to hit 40%. Think he's doing his best to do that now don't you?
fuchsntf Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Leaving the EU will likely do nothing to curb immigration - surely any replacement trade agreement will require freedom of movement between us and other borders anyway.... It's just a smokescreen playing on the values and fears of middle England and its up there with 'increases in rapes and sexual assaults unless we Brexit crap" Short, but on the nail.. Trust a match..to notice a smokescreen.!!.
Guest MattP Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 If I hadn't seen PMQ'S today I'd honestly have no idea where Corbyn is, is he doing any of the debates? It's very strange to have the leader of the opposition playing no role at all in the biggest decision the country will make for decades.
Izzy Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 its now 50/50 at 44 each. unbelievable really. It's still 50/50 at 61 votes each now! I wonder how reflective this is of the U.K. vote? P.S. Does the poll need pinning at the top because its dropping down the list in Gen chat and might get missed on page 2 soon?
yorkie1999 Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Once upon a time, a man called dodgy dave was disgusted by the idea of giving away our powers to the nasty european union, but then he became a prince and changed his mind, and we all lived unhappily ever after. http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/678098/Video-young-David-Cameron-EU-Lisbon-Treaty-referendum-promise
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 George giving a glowing example of why he will never be Prime Minister. In fact - this could essentially be his resignation.
The Guvnor Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Ha ha Osborne getting mullered by Andrew Neil, showed his sidekick saying in Nov we would. be ok if we left the EU, six months later it would be the end of the world. If ever there was an endorsement to leave this is it well done George good man
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Ha ha Osbourne getting mullered by Andrew Neil, showed his sidekick saying in Nov we would be ok if we left the EU, six months later it would be the end of the world. If ever there was an endorsement to leave this is it well done George good man I'd be amazed if there is any coming back from this.
Strokes Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 I'd be amazed if there is any coming back from this. Hopefully not, the blokes a snake and cut from the same cloth as Cameron.
Sharpe's Fox Posted 8 June 2016 Posted 8 June 2016 Gideon getting smashed, battered and chucked in the fryer. Hilarious and cringy in equal measure.
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