The Politics Thread

[leicsmac]

Expecting Ken to judge any Tory on what they do is like expecting Thrac to judge any member of Labour on what they do.

 

Or expecting me to judge a member of the Murdoch family in a similar way, come to that.

[Guest MattP]

Or me judging a policy put forward by Corbyn and Abbott.

[Webbo]

I am not biased or one sided. 

 

 

Who are you trying to convince, us or yourself?

[Dr The Singh]

Who are you trying to convince, us or yourself?

He is talking/posting to himself again.

[Guest]

Why does a National daily newspaper have 10 outfits of Theresa May explained over a double spread today?

 

Isn't politics as interesting as it has been for at least 20 years?

 

Would they have done the same if a man had become PM.

 

Sad.

[Guest]

Murnaghan has that heavy of politics Rory Bremner on. OMG!

 

Angela Eagle later.

[Guest MattP]

Probably the most impressive start I've ever seen at PMQ's today, no nerves, blunt, aggressive and even a Thatcher impression at one point while she shredded Corbyn.

 

No need for the attack on Tim Farron though, he was only being nice.

[Darkon84]

Was just coming on to post about PMQ's, unfortunately this is all I've seen today, so here's the back and forth between Maggie May and Comrade Corbyn.

 

 

[Guest]

Talk is easy.

 

Let's see her in action.

 

The EU deal for one.

 

The one nation for another.

[Sharpe's Fox]

Jesus Christ the execution of that "Remind you of anyone" gag was awful. Was she going for Cruella DeVille or was it just a bad Thatcher impression? Doesn't help when Corbyn told the same joke last week, I like the bloke but frankly if you're taking comedic tips from him you need to give up.

[Guest MattP]

It was like watching another Thatcher, very weird.

 

Back on issues, unemployment now at the lowest since 2005,

 

Quote

The UK unemployment rate has fallen to 4.9%, the lowest since July 2005, according to official figures.

The unemployment total fell to 1.65 million in the March-to-May period, down 54,000 from the previous quarter, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36844302

 

 

[Alf Bentley]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

It was like watching another Thatcher, very weird.

 

Back on issues, unemployment now at the lowest since 2005,

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36844302

 

 

 

Perhaps we'll soon have 0% unemployment and nobody working - everybody on zero-hours contracts! 

 

Don't bother responding to that, Matt. I'm just trying to distract myself from the depressing fiasco in the Labour Party.

 

It does sound as if May's wish, as expressed at PMQs, for Corbyn to have many more years as Opposition Leader will be fulfilled.

Firstly, it sounds as if countless thousands have been coughing up £25 to be registered supporters, probably mainly Corbynistas, so I assume he'll win - after a destructive, divisive leadership campaign.

Secondly, what I hear about Owen Smith doesn't sound great - surely a better candidate was available? I might end up spoiling my ballot paper, unless he's a bit better than he seems at first sight.

Thirdly, it sounds as if the Parliamentary Labour Party are resigned to this being a war of attrition: they expect to lose, to NOT form a rival group in parliament or an alternative centre-left party, and to keep fighting Corbyn until he gives in (which it sounds like he won't - even if he can't form a proper shadow cabinet), possibly staging leadership contests on annual basis, if necessary. 

 

I honestly don't know how this is all going to end. Maybe May will call an early election at some point, Labour will get massacred and Corbyn will have to go? But while Labour is in such a mess, it might make more sense for her to carry on while they discredit themselves further, unless she's concerned about greater Tory divisions or unpopularity further down the line due to the economy, Brexit or whatever. Maybe the Corbynistas will take over most local parties and deselect most non-Corbyn MPs, forcing them to set up a new party and/or join the Lib Dems or Greens?

 

It's truly unbelievable. Arguably, we have the most critical political situation for 70 years - and Labour chooses this moment to disintegrate as a meaningful opposition, enter into apparently permanent crisis and conduct a bizarre experiment whereby the party abandons all aspirations to power or influence, satisfying itself with the egotistical purism of compiling the perfect list of "morally superior left-wing ideals"....which they then don't feel a need to promote to a wider public!

 

It'll be an interesting phenomenon for sociologists to analyse. I'm sure that it ties in with the narcissism implicit in social media like Twitter & Facebook and a lazy refusal to engage with the "corrupt, discredited" institutions of democratic politics. Madness!

[Smudge]

On July 16, 2016 at 02:52, Rincewind said:

I am not biased or one sided.

  Is that keyboard on the blink again?

[Guest MattP]

4 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Perhaps we'll soon have 0% unemployment and nobody working - everybody on zero-hours contracts! 

 

Don't bother responding to that, Matt. I'm just trying to distract myself from the depressing fiasco in the Labour Party.

 

It does sound as if May's wish, as expressed at PMQs, for Corbyn to have many more years as Opposition Leader will be fulfilled.

Firstly, it sounds as if countless thousands have been coughing up £25 to be registered supporters, probably mainly Corbynistas, so I assume he'll win - after a destructive, divisive leadership campaign.

Secondly, what I hear about Owen Smith doesn't sound great - surely a better candidate was available? I might end up spoiling my ballot paper, unless he's a bit better than he seems at first sight.

Thirdly, it sounds as if the Parliamentary Labour Party are resigned to this being a war of attrition: they expect to lose, to NOT form a rival group in parliament or an alternative centre-left party, and to keep fighting Corbyn until he gives in (which it sounds like he won't - even if he can't form a proper shadow cabinet), possibly staging leadership contests on annual basis, if necessary. 

 

I honestly don't know how this is all going to end. Maybe May will call an early election at some point, Labour will get massacred and Corbyn will have to go? But while Labour is in such a mess, it might make more sense for her to carry on while they discredit themselves further, unless she's concerned about greater Tory divisions or unpopularity further down the line due to the economy, Brexit or whatever. Maybe the Corbynistas will take over most local parties and deselect most non-Corbyn MPs, forcing them to set up a new party and/or join the Lib Dems or Greens?

 

It's truly unbelievable. Arguably, we have the most critical political situation for 70 years - and Labour chooses this moment to disintegrate as a meaningful opposition, enter into apparently permanent crisis and conduct a bizarre experiment whereby the party abandons all aspirations to power or influence, satisfying itself with the egotistical purism of compiling the perfect list of "morally superior left-wing ideals"....which they then don't feel a need to promote to a wider public!

 

It'll be an interesting phenomenon for sociologists to analyse. I'm sure that it ties in with the narcissism implicit in social media like Twitter & Facebook and a lazy refusal to engage with the "corrupt, discredited" institutions of democratic politics. Madness!

No problem, I do feel for you at the minute, it really astounding what is happening.

 

Sky is now reporting over 150,000 have paid £25 in the last few days to sign up, if that's the case then surely Corbyn has absolutely walked this and could win by some margin,I know Owen Smith isn't great but you could have Clement Atlee running against him in the current membership and Corbyn would win. It means a dead opposition for year after year against a Conservative government that no one to the left of left if that makes sense can vote against.

 

Whether a split will l happen I don't know but certain MP'S will have to do something as they will simply be deselected before they even get a chance to fight for seat the next time around, I still don't see any point in May calling an early election, why on earth would you help Labour to end this chaos? You wouldn't, for all the talk of "meaningful opposition" they want they still won't give them a shove in that direction to help.

 

I've given up with arguing with Corbynista's online now, it;s almost become a religious cult, nothing is ever his fault, anything that goes wrong is the mainstream media or "Blairites", even if a brick goes through the window of Angela Eagle's windows it's propaganda, a video of Corbyn on Iranian TV, it's still not him, despite the video of it actually being him it's still not him and the Mail's fault for reporting it, it's a level of delusion and in a weird way adulation I'll never get, a political party turned into a cult.

[Rincewind]

there was a comment on my thread assuming what i was thinking about an article which i dis not say which one or what it was about or whether i agreed with the conclusion. all i posted was that i read an interesting article about corbyn.

i distrust all politicians which is where my lack of bias lies. it seems it is ok to believe all bad reports about one person but when anything about a tory is made all the excuses come out. 'it was a long time ago' ' they may disagree with what their husband/wife does' etc.

 

my sister has said she would even switching to Tory if owen smith became leader because he has said he would consider another referendum.

they are all as bad as one another so lets sling the mud evenly. that is all i am asking.

[Captain...]

I thought May could be good for this country, I thought she might be an old school politician and her and Jeremy could bring politics and PMQs back to two ideologies squaring off over issues and policies.

 

After being welcomed and asked to bring the level of debate out of the gutter, she goes on to avoid the questions asked and attacks Corbyn and the Labour Party. I really don't want the people running the country spending their time coming up with pithy jokes about an "opposition" that is intent on destroying itself, there are much more important things to focus on at the moment. I hoped for something different with May but it is just the same politicking with little substance from what I have seen so far.

 

it must be about time for a new party, look at Spain and how they have shaken up the political elite.

[Alf Bentley]

9 hours ago, MattP said:

No problem, I do feel for you at the minute, it really astounding what is happening.

 

Sky is now reporting over 150,000 have paid £25 in the last few days to sign up, if that's the case then surely Corbyn has absolutely walked this and could win by some margin,I know Owen Smith isn't great but you could have Clement Atlee running against him in the current membership and Corbyn would win. It means a dead opposition for year after year against a Conservative government that no one to the left of left if that makes sense can vote against.

 

Whether a split will l happen I don't know but certain MP'S will have to do something as they will simply be deselected before they even get a chance to fight for seat the next time around, I still don't see any point in May calling an early election, why on earth would you help Labour to end this chaos? You wouldn't, for all the talk of "meaningful opposition" they want they still won't give them a shove in that direction to help.

 

I've given up with arguing with Corbynista's online now, it;s almost become a religious cult, nothing is ever his fault, anything that goes wrong is the mainstream media or "Blairites", even if a brick goes through the window of Angela Eagle's windows it's propaganda, a video of Corbyn on Iranian TV, it's still not him, despite the video of it actually being him it's still not him and the Mail's fault for reporting it, it's a level of delusion and in a weird way adulation I'll never get, a political party turned into a cult.

 

183,000+ registered supporters according to Newsnight. There might be more "Corbyn out" people than we expect (to my surprise and not at my instigation, my wife paid £25 to vote against him - she's always voted Lab, but never joined a political organisation). Most are Jeremy fanatics, though, I imagine. Smith will probably never be in power, but it might be cunning politics him announcing that he'd have a second referendum - could peel off a fair few Remain voters who are lukewarm about Corbyn.

 

You're probably right about May not calling an early election, but I just wonder.... Imagine a (likely) scenario where Corbyn is re-elected, Labour remains mired in strife and chaos, UKIP has yet to get its act together and the polls look good for the Tories. She'll be looking ahead at the potential prospect, a year or two down the line, of economic problems and hardline Eurosceptics rebelling at any EU compromise, thereby eliminating her wafer-thin majority. If it was low-risk, there'd surely be a temptation to go for an autumn election so as to have the security of a much larger majority for 5 years? She could easily justify it on the grounds of "getting a mandate as PM" - and could devastate Labour for a generation, potentially forever, whereas if she stays put then Labour probably will eventually get its act together, even if it takes a couple of years. Of course, the attitude of other EU countries might come into it. It sounds as if Merkel is happy for the UK to wait until at least January to trigger Article 50. The French and others might not be so accommodating, but if the EU is prepared to wait that long, a low-risk autumn election with the prospect of a big majority will look enticing.

 

I wonder how many deselections will actually happen if Corbyn stays and there's a long war of attrition? Maybe I'm wrong, but my guess is that the vast majority of the Corbynistas will never attend local ward/constituency Labour Party meetings, through which candidates can be deselected. The Momentum hardcore will do so - and will drag in a few new supporters with them - but my guess is that most new Lab members are protesters or keyboard warriors, not people prepared to sit through a boring committee meeting filled with boring, middle-aged people in a dreary meeting room. A few MPs might get deselected where the individual MP is useless and/or the local party is weak and/or Momentum are strong. But most MPs will have strong local support and most local parties will have a lot of long-term non-Momentum activists, mostly not open to unjustified Corbynist deselections.

 

This is all truly weird - and a massive shame. In theory, it should be a good thing that hundreds of thousands of new people, many of them young, want to get involved in politics. If even a small proportion of them got actively involved in local parties in an open, democratic manner, whatever their views, that would be very good news. If, however, it's 80% people who want to be seen shrieking self-righteously on Facebook/Twitter, 15% people who want to be seen chanting self-righteously at left-wing rallies and 5% people who want to aggressively take over local parties on behalf of a hard-left Momentum entryist caucus and who will never consider views other than their own.....that's not so good, to say the least.

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Rincewind said:

 

my sister has said she would even switching to Tory if owen smith became leader because he has said he would consider another referendum.

 

 

I reckon the only significance of Smith's promise to stage a second referendum will be to improve his vote against Corbyn in the leadership contest. Corbyn won't match this call as he's probably a secret Brexit supporter (note his call for Article 50 to be triggered immediately, even before the UK knows what it wants from negotiations!)....and most Labour Party members are strong Remain supporters.

 

Smith will still probably lose to Corbyn (but maybe by a smaller margin if he wins over Lab Remain voters). If he miraculously wins, there's no need for May to call an election for nearly 4 years, and she would surely only call one if she was very confident that she would get a larger majority. The only way there'd be a second referendum is if the Tories split - or choose to call one. Labour can only protest impotently from the sidelines....just how Jeremy likes it!

[Captain...]

This is what I don't understand, Corbyn was elected leader of the Labour party by it's members because of what he stands for, if he represents the majority of the Labour members why are the other MPs trying to undermine him at every opportunity? All they are doing is pissing off the majority of the Labour party members. They are so blinded by the fact that Corbyn is wrong and they are right they are failing to see that Labour voters don't want the same New Labour politicians we have had for decades now. Unelectable Ed was a clear example of that. So what can they do?

 

Do they try and "out-Corbyn" Jeremy, have the same principles that JC but with more substance. A lot of people respect how he carries himself, the fact he doesn't wear fancy suits and doesn't spend all his time kissing babies and trying to tell everybody what kind of person he is, he just gets on with it and does what he thinks is best even if others think it is career suicide. People like seeing an unpolished human being represent them not a slick media robot. That is what they should be doing, taking the essence of what made JC popular among the labour party members and starting from there. Instead they are doing the opposite, they showing themselves up to be the sly underhand power hungry politicians that JC was elected to stand against. The fact that they still haven't grasped why he was voted for in such numbers just shows what a mess the labour party are in. If Corbyn wins again I have no idea where they go from here. I think that there could l be a lot of MPs quitting the party, maybe defecting to Lib Dems or maybe a new party will spring from the ashes.

[Webbo]

3 minutes ago, Captain... said:

This is what I don't understand, Corbyn was elected leader of the Labour party by it's members because of what he stands for, if he represents the majority of the Labour members why are the other MPs trying to undermine him at every opportunity? All they are doing is pissing off the majority of the Labour party members. They are so blinded by the fact that Corbyn is wrong and they are right they are failing to see that Labour voters don't want the same New Labour politicians we have had for decades now. Unelectable Ed was a clear example of that. So what can they do?

 

Do they try and "out-Corbyn" Jeremy, have the same principles that JC but with more substance. A lot of people respect how he carries himself, the fact he doesn't wear fancy suits and doesn't spend all his time kissing babies and trying to tell everybody what kind of person he is, he just gets on with it and does what he thinks is best even if others think it is career suicide. People like seeing an unpolished human being represent them not a slick media robot. That is what they should be doing, taking the essence of what made JC popular among the labour party members and starting from there. Instead they are doing the opposite, they showing themselves up to be the sly underhand power hungry politicians that JC was elected to stand against. The fact that they still haven't grasped why he was voted for in such numbers just shows what a mess the labour party are in. If Corbyn wins again I have no idea where they go from here. I think that there could l be a lot of MPs quitting the party, maybe defecting to Lib Dems or maybe a new party will spring from the ashes.

Because the MPs represent their constituents not just Labour party members. You're asking them to support not only what they don't believe in but what'll get them unelected too.

[IrememberBobHazell]

If Mr Corbyn is re-elected it truly could go nuclear. You can't have a party where you have only 1/5th behind the leader in Parliament, they will either call an uneasy truce or it will be mass defections.

 What also concerns me is the zeal and borderline intimidation that appeals to be associated with this leadership battle. Also what concerns me is Mr Corbyn doesn't play by the rules, the norms of political behaviour do not apply to him and I don't like rogue elements near positions of power. 

 I'm a Tory in a warts and all sense. I want a Conservative government, I want them to be running the country and local councils BUT I know full well they need a decent opposition to keep them honest and neither Mr Corbyn or his challenger can provide that. Even Mr Corbyn lite is promising a $200 billion infrastructure development fund which defies credibility. As my good lady said (and she is by no means true blue)," Do we all get a free unicorn too?"

[Guest MattP]

4 hours ago, Captain... said:

it must be about time for a new party, look at Spain and how they have shaken up the political elite.

Haven't we pretty much already done that? UKIP came on the scene and they shook up the political elite like no party ever has, even managing to achieve their goal within 20 years of existence of finally freeing us from the European Union, it was only FPTP that kept them out of Westminster in any sort of serious numbers.

 

Are we really holding up Spain as some sort of standard? The election there has been a farce and they have effectively been without a government for over a year.

 

4 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

183,000+ registered supporters according to Newsnight. There might be more "Corbyn out" people than we expect (to my surprise and not at my instigation, my wife paid £25 to vote against him - she's always voted Lab, but never joined a political organisation). Most are Jeremy fanatics, though, I imagine. Smith will probably never be in power, but it might be cunning politics him announcing that he'd have a second referendum - could peel off a fair few Remain voters who are lukewarm about Corbyn.

 

You're probably right about May not calling an early election, but I just wonder.... Imagine a (likely) scenario where Corbyn is re-elected, Labour remains mired in strife and chaos, UKIP has yet to get its act together and the polls look good for the Tories. She'll be looking ahead at the potential prospect, a year or two down the line, of economic problems and hardline Eurosceptics rebelling at any EU compromise, thereby eliminating her wafer-thin majority. If it was low-risk, there'd surely be a temptation to go for an autumn election so as to have the security of a much larger majority for 5 years? She could easily justify it on the grounds of "getting a mandate as PM" - and could devastate Labour for a generation, potentially forever, whereas if she stays put then Labour probably will eventually get its act together, even if it takes a couple of years. Of course, the attitude of other EU countries might come into it. It sounds as if Merkel is happy for the UK to wait until at least January to trigger Article 50. The French and others might not be so accommodating, but if the EU is prepared to wait that long, a low-risk autumn election with the prospect of a big majority will look enticing.

 

I wonder how many deselections will actually happen if Corbyn stays and there's a long war of attrition? Maybe I'm wrong, but my guess is that the vast majority of the Corbynistas will never attend local ward/constituency Labour Party meetings, through which candidates can be deselected. The Momentum hardcore will do so - and will drag in a few new supporters with them - but my guess is that most new Lab members are protesters or keyboard warriors, not people prepared to sit through a boring committee meeting filled with boring, middle-aged people in a dreary meeting room. A few MPs might get deselected where the individual MP is useless and/or the local party is weak and/or Momentum are strong. But most MPs will have strong local support and most local parties will have a lot of long-term non-Momentum activists, mostly not open to unjustified Corbynist deselections.

 

This is all truly weird - and a massive shame. In theory, it should be a good thing that hundreds of thousands of new people, many of them young, want to get involved in politics. If even a small proportion of them got actively involved in local parties in an open, democratic manner, whatever their views, that would be very good news. If, however, it's 80% people who want to be seen shrieking self-righteously on Facebook/Twitter, 15% people who want to be seen chanting self-righteously at left-wing rallies and 5% people who want to aggressively take over local parties on behalf of a hard-left Momentum entryist caucus and who will never consider views other than their own.....that's not so good, to say the least.

I spoke to two guys playing pentanque last night and we got speaking about Labour, one had signed up to remove Corbyn but he also told me about his Tory voting workmate who has signed up to keep him in a job, I suppose we have no idea what comes from the figures but how on earth can you get into a position where your enemies can infiltrate the voting process to weaken you? It really is beyond belief what has happened in that party over the last 18 months.

 

I can see the possibility and logic behind an early election but again I don't envisage them doing it as it simply isnt worth the risk, unless they were a consistent 10-12% ahead in the polls it just wouldn't be worth it. De-selections will have to happen, mainly in those cities such as Liverpool where the old guard still has some clout, Angela Eagle has already had a motion of no confidence passed I think.

 

It really is a shame, I concur with that, we are watching the death of a political party of have done a lot of good for people.

 

1 hour ago, Captain... said:

This is what I don't understand, Corbyn was elected leader of the Labour party by it's members because of what he stands for, if he represents the majority of the Labour members why are the other MPs trying to undermine him at every opportunity? All they are doing is pissing off the majority of the Labour party members. They are so blinded by the fact that Corbyn is wrong and they are right they are failing to see that Labour voters don't want the same New Labour politicians we have had for decades now. Unelectable Ed was a clear example of that. So what can they do?

 

Do they try and "out-Corbyn" Jeremy, have the same principles that JC but with more substance. A lot of people respect how he carries himself, the fact he doesn't wear fancy suits and doesn't spend all his time kissing babies and trying to tell everybody what kind of person he is, he just gets on with it and does what he thinks is best even if others think it is career suicide. People like seeing an unpolished human being represent them not a slick media robot. That is what they should be doing, taking the essence of what made JC popular among the labour party members and starting from there. Instead they are doing the opposite, they showing themselves up to be the sly underhand power hungry politicians that JC was elected to stand against. The fact that they still haven't grasped why he was voted for in such numbers just shows what a mess the labour party are in. If Corbyn wins again I have no idea where they go from here. I think that there could l be a lot of MPs quitting the party, maybe defecting to Lib Dems or maybe a new party will spring from the ashes.

What does he actually stand for? I still don't really know, he just seems to run around shouting about austerity, save the NHS, a better World etc with no actual policy to back anything up, this isn't the Greens, he's supposed to be the leader of a serious political people that people are supposed to look at and see as a potential government, his MP's can't just stand back and allow someone totally incompetent to be in that job and just turn the other cheek, his acolytes who drool over his every move (even when he's done nothing, ref. EU referendum) and shouldn't just be given the upmost respect because they decided to jump on a bandwagon and pay £3 to see him elected. I mean can you seriously iagine what a fully costed manifesto will look like under his team?

 

It's isn't a binary choice either, you can be somewhere in between Corbyn and New Labour.

 

There is no point trying to "Out Corbyn" him, he's cornered the market in that and if Labour want to spend the next 20 years in opposition doing protest/student politics rather than serious politics then they can do, the other option is to get rid of him and the MP's are correct to do so. The reason he was voted in was nothing to do with the mess Labour was in, it was to do with the idiots in the party opening up the leadership election and allowing itself to be took over by a hard sect that represent probably no more than 5% of the electorate, had they elected Chukka Umanna, Dan Jarvis or Alan Johnson this time last year they'd probably be ahead of the Tories now in the polls.

 

[Guest MattP]

Although Alf if this holds for a few months she might be tempted...

 

[Captain...]

27 minutes ago, MattP said:

Haven't we pretty much already done that? UKIP came on the scene and they shook up the political elite like no party ever has, even managing to achieve their goal within 20 years of existence of finally freeing us from the European Union, it was only FPTP that kept them out of Westminster in any sort of serious numbers.

 

Are we really holding up Spain as some sort of standard? The election there has been a farce and they have effectively been without a government for over a year.

 

I spoke to two guys playing pentanque last night and we got speaking about Labour, one had signed up to remove Corbyn but he also told me about his Tory voting workmate who has signed up to keep him in a job, I suppose we have no idea what comes from the figures but how on earth can you get into a position where your enemies can infiltrate the voting process to weaken you? It really is beyond belief what has happened in that party over the last 18 months.

 

I can see the possibility and logic behind an early election but again I don't envisage them doing it as it simply isnt worth the risk, unless they were a consistent 10-12% ahead in the polls it just wouldn't be worth it. De-selections will have to happen, mainly in those cities such as Liverpool where the old guard still has some clout, Angela Eagle has already had a motion of no confidence passed I think.

 

It really is a shame, I concur with that, we are watching the death of a political party of have done a lot of good for people.

 

What does he actually stand for? I still don't really know, he just seems to run around shouting about austerity, save the NHS, a better World etc with no actual policy to back anything up, this isn't the Greens, he's supposed to be the leader of a serious political people that people are supposed to look at and see as a potential government, his MP's can't just stand back and allow someone totally incompetent to be in that job and just turn the other cheek, his acolytes who drool over his every move (even when he's done nothing, ref. EU referendum) and shouldn't just be given the upmost respect because they decided to jump on a bandwagon and pay £3 to see him elected. I mean can you seriously iagine what a fully costed manifesto will look like under his team?

 

It's isn't a binary choice either, you can be somewhere in between Corbyn and New Labour.

 

There is no point trying to "Out Corbyn" him, he's cornered the market in that and if Labour want to spend the next 20 years in opposition doing protest/student politics rather than serious politics then they can do, the other option is to get rid of him and the MP's are correct to do so. The reason he was voted in was nothing to do with the mess Labour was in, it was to do with the idiots in the party opening up the leadership election and allowing itself to be took over by a hard sect that represent probably no more than 5% of the electorate, had they elected Chukka Umanna, Dan Jarvis or Alan Johnson this time last year they'd probably be ahead of the Tories now in the polls.

 

But that is the point, Corbyn has the support he has because he represents honesty, integrity and principles, something sadly lacking in politics in recent times. All this plotting and scheming and backstabbing politicking going in the Labour  party is exactly the sort of thing people who voted for Corbyn what rid of. They making themselves very unpopular within the party because they fail to realise why Corbyn has the support he does and it is not for his dress sense or even his policies. If you want to get support away from him you need to position yourself as having the same integrity as Corbyn but better policies. Attacking him just entrenches the views of his supporters.

 

Ironically he had been gaining in popularity despite his party and even topped Cameron in polls in April, I am not a Corbynista, I still think the jury is out on him, he has had to deal with constant infighting throughout his tenure as leader and has had no chance to focus on being the opposition.

 

As for UKIP being a third party, they have done a lot to shake up politics, none of it good IMO, but apart from the referendum and they managed 1 mp which just shows how fvcked the system is, they are now irrelevant, unless we don't leave Europe, the Lib Dems have committed political suicide for a sniff of power. There must be room for a new party, because at the moment both main parties are massively divided and could easily become 4 distinct parties. What happened in Spain was a reaction to two tired old parties just trading blows and playing politics with the people suffering. The Chaos of the last 6 months in Spain will hopefully lead to better politics and not the divided out dated 2 party system that has seen them stagnate for years.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Captain... said:

But that is the point, Corbyn has the support he has because he represents honesty, integrity and principles, something sadly lacking in politics in recent times. All this plotting and scheming and backstabbing politicking going in the Labour  party is exactly the sort of thing people who voted for Corbyn what rid of. They making themselves very unpopular within the party because they fail to realise why Corbyn has the support he does and it is not for his dress sense or even his policies. If you want to get support away from him you need to position yourself as having the same integrity as Corbyn but better policies. Attacking him just entrenches the views of his supporters.

 

Ironically he had been gaining in popularity despite his party and even topped Cameron in polls in April, I am not a Corbynista, I still think the jury is out on him, he has had to deal with constant infighting throughout his tenure as leader and has had no chance to focus on being the opposition.

 

As for UKIP being a third party, they have done a lot to shake up politics, none of it good IMO, but apart from the referendum and they managed 1 mp which just shows how fvcked the system is, they are now irrelevant, unless we don't leave Europe, the Lib Dems have committed political suicide for a sniff of power. There must be room for a new party, because at the moment both main parties are massively divided and could easily become 4 distinct parties. What happened in Spain was a reaction to two tired old parties just trading blows and playing politics with the people suffering. The Chaos of the last 6 months in Spain will hopefully lead to better politics and not the divided out dated 2 party system that has seen them stagnate for years.

Oh come on, you are getting worse than the fanboys and nuthuggers here, the bloke totally sold out his principles on the EU referendum, the biggest "outer" in politics and he just decided to claim he was for remain and then drift into the background, as Alf said he was jumping to trigger article 50 the next day, he could barely contain his excitement.

 

Integrity? This is a man who has taken jobs from Iranian state TV, funded by a regime that executes people based on sexuality and wants to wipe every Jew off the planet, he's swanned around the World in 5 star hotels taken from the pockets of the poorest people in South America. He's shared platforms with holocaust deniers, if this in integrity then we have a different definition of the word.

 

Sorry, I can't even take this seriously anymore.