The Politics Thread

[Carl the Llama]

Actually one last thing.

 

I'm probably a great example of how wrong you are about people, Moose.  Click on the song in my sig - that's pretty much a spot on rendition of my life-view.  And yet someone as apathetic to the dehumanising race to the top as me still managed to realise the very important need to find work and fend for oneself.

 

If someone with my overall attitude can do it, there really must be extenuating circumstances holding back the more eager members of society struggling to find employment, I refuse to believe there's anyone out there significantly more reticent to capitalist ladder climbing than I am.

[MooseBreath]

Actually one last thing.

I'm probably a great example of how wrong you are about people, Moose. Click on the song in my sig - that's pretty much a spot on rendition of my life-view. And yet someone as apathetic to the dehumanising race to the top as me still managed to realise the very important need to find work and fend for oneself.

If someone with my overall attitude can do it, there really must be extenuating circumstances holding back the more eager members of society struggling to find employment, I refuse to believe there's anyone out there significantly more reticent to capitalist ladder climbing than I am.

Even if you don't want to climb a ladder I'm sure you do feel something of an obligation to work for yourself rather than relying on charity enforced upon others. Not everybody does feel that obligation.

[MooseBreath]

Driven of course by the unshakeable faith that personal responsibility is an absolute and there is no exertion of circumstances that another person or people (or indeed the vagaries of fate) might place upon them that results in events being beyond their control.

Made a superb reply to this but it's not here. The gist of it was that yours is an excessively romantic theory that assumes all manner of blockages from genetics to no doubt class war, but in reality providing for yourself even in those circumstances (the same circumstances in which most of us here survive) is actually quite straightforward and no capable person should have any permanent difficulties in finding a suitable job that pays them enough to get by without relying on others for help.

[Rincewind]

At the same time being told that you are worthless and receiving refusal after refusal can have a demoralising affect on a person.

[Strokes]

How are they good people if they're defrauding charities?

They are only defrauding charities if they have specific requirements that you cant have sky or mobile phones or even broadband xboxes etc. I'm not sure that they do.

[MooseBreath]

At the same time being told that you are worthless and receiving refusal after refusal can have a demoralising affect on a person.

I don't think many people actually get told that they are worthless but undoubtedly receiving rejections from jobs can be disappointing. Much like people on the olden days would have been disappointed with a poor harvest, but they wouldn't have just laid down and died, they did something about it. They had heart, passion and felt responsible for their own lives. Nowadays some people are timid, wrecked by victimisation complexes and would rather blame someone else than work on their faults.

[Strokes]

Just a simple question. Not getting at anyone. Would you if a boss employ someone that had any of these conditions. A tendency to have mood swings some violent, incontinent, unable to sit or stand for long periods, needing access alterations for a wheelchair, needing time off for frequent hospital appointments and no qualifications. Bearing in mind there are 50 other applicants.

What's the role ken?

[RedSoxUK]

Apologies for missing this.

Among my social circle, there isn't a man or woman who are not better off in terms of personal finances under the Tories. None of us are dependant on benefits, we all have well paid jobs, all own our own homes. Yet all of us would rather eat shit than vote Tory because we care about the kind of society we live in. We don't want to live in a society where people are left destitute because they are inadequate, or sick, or just plain unlucky. We can't accept that in one of the richest nations, we have people dependant on food banks. We absolutely reject austerity, because although we are not affected personally, millions of the most disadvantaged are. And that diminshes us all.

 

Just because you swallowed the blue pill doesnt mean that the rest of us have to conform to these dated ideals. It joins the same ranks of the white guilt politically correct morons and feminazis of today's liberal society - silver spoon white guy moaning about racial inequality at a private university, able bodied post-menopause feminist moaning about gender wage inequality, and socialist hypocritical organisations used as excuses for afirmative action moaning about whitey.

 

The same people who tend to do this, tend to continue their cushty lives; preach their soft toned idealistic society while sipping on an expensive wine in their Devonshire mansion. These people care so much for socialism and left-oriented politics, but when it comes down to it, they wouldn't give up their homes to house a poor family, they wouldn't give up another chunk of their wage to feed the starving, and they wouldn't give up their job to let someone else's perceieved unprivileged background get paid, or give up their university place to a minority.

 

Things like poverty and homelessness need to be sorted out over time, but you can't solve these issues by incencitising sloth traits. 

 

"None of us are dependant on benefits, we all have well paid jobs, all own our own homes. Yet all of us would rather eat shit than vote Tory."

[leicsmac]

Made a superb reply to this but it's not here. The gist of it was that yours is an excessively romantic theory that assumes all manner of blockages from genetics to no doubt class war, but in reality providing for yourself even in those circumstances (the same circumstances in which most of us here survive) is actually quite straightforward and no capable person should have any permanent difficulties in finding a suitable job that pays them enough to get by without relying on others for help.

 

The fact that they would be 'straightforward' to overcome (whether that's true or not is up for debate) is irrelevant - IMO if they're the result of another person or people they shouldn't be there in the first place, and if they're the result of another factor efforts should be made by others to help. Evidently, however, you think differently.

 

If it's overly idealistic and romantic to believe in the idea that humanity should cooperate and show empathy with each other rather than accepting the idea that humans should seek to fvck each other over on a consistent basis (and as an addenum lose the utterly specious idea that how we work defines who we are) then fair enough, I'm an idealist. Of course edging into the more cynical side of the spectrum I also know that far too many people still think might makes right, evolution hasn't got us to the stage where we can get past that yet. We can care deeply - selflessly - about ourselves and perhaps certain people we know, but that empathy rarely extends beyond our own line of sight.

 

 

Just because you swallowed the blue pill doesnt mean that the rest of us have to conform to these dated ideals. It joins the same ranks of the white guilt politically correct morons and feminazis of today's liberal society - silver spoon white guy moaning about racial inequality at a private university, able bodied post-menopause feminist moaning about gender wage inequality, and socialist hypocritical organisations used as excuses for afirmative action moaning about whitey.

 

The same people who tend to do this, tend to continue their cushty lives; preach their soft toned idealistic society while sipping on an expensive wine in their Devonshire mansion. These people care so much for socialism and left-oriented politics, but when it comes down to it, they wouldn't give up their homes to house a poor family, they wouldn't give up another chunk of their wage to feed the starving, and they wouldn't give up their job to let someone else's perceieved unprivileged background get paid, or give up their university place to a minority.

 

Things like poverty and homelessness need to be sorted out over time, but you can't solve these issues by incencitising sloth traits. 

 

"None of us are dependant on benefits, we all have well paid jobs, all own our own homes. Yet all of us would rather eat shit than vote Tory."

 

Wow, someone have some time on r/theredpill or /pol/ fora today? Lot of boxes ticked in that one, particularly the first paragraph. 

 

And I'll make the same point as I did to Moose. Why is it that how we work defines us? And why is talking about the idea of a more equal society always deemed overly idealistic, and by extension unrealistic or unattainable?

[Carl the Llama]

Just because you swallowed the blue pill doesnt mean that the rest of us have to conform to these dated ideals. It joins the same ranks of the white guilt politically correct morons and feminazis of today's liberal society - silver spoon white guy moaning about racial inequality at a private university, able bodied post-menopause feminist moaning about gender wage inequality, and socialist hypocritical organisations used as excuses for afirmative action moaning about whitey.

 

The same people who tend to do this, tend to continue their cushty lives; preach their soft toned idealistic society while sipping on an expensive wine in their Devonshire mansion. These people care so much for socialism and left-oriented politics, but when it comes down to it, they wouldn't give up their homes to house a poor family, they wouldn't give up another chunk of their wage to feed the starving, and they wouldn't give up their job to let someone else's perceieved unprivileged background get paid, or give up their university place to a minority.

 

Things like poverty and homelessness need to be sorted out over time, but you can't solve these issues by incencitising sloth traits. 

 

"None of us are dependant on benefits, we all have well paid jobs, all own our own homes. Yet all of us would rather eat shit than vote Tory."

Interesting you say that, because I have a picture on my phone sent to me by my parents, exactly the kind of people you're on about, of the Algerian couple and their child who they're housing while an aid organisation finds permanent lodging for them. I'm not going to share it on here because that's creepy, just know that you not being willing to lift a finger for others in need doesn't prove that nobody else is.

[Rincewind]

What's the role ken?

Does it matter when there are 'thousands' of jobs available? It was more of a throwaway question anyway to the comment that there is no reason why a person should not work. The above conditions are barriers many have to face. Would an employer want someone that takes time off for hospital appointments? There may be some but in every City or town when there are other applicants? Also they may not have worked for 10 years. It is not as simple as it sounds. A person cannot be classed as disabled one day then walk into an accountants job the next day. This is what many are expected to do. Some have had no experience on a PC yet they are told to apply on line without asking if they can use a PC. If a person as a lower  IQ they will not understand the instructions and will not have the know how to ask for help. This is when they are sanctioned then withdraw from the world and fall into debt. It happens a lot.

[Buce]

Just because you swallowed the blue pill doesnt mean that the rest of us have to conform to these dated ideals. It joins the same ranks of the white guilt politically correct morons and feminazis of today's liberal society - silver spoon white guy moaning about racial inequality at a private university, able bodied post-menopause feminist moaning about gender wage inequality, and socialist hypocritical organisations used as excuses for afirmative action moaning about whitey.

The same people who tend to do this, tend to continue their cushty lives; preach their soft toned idealistic society while sipping on an expensive wine in their Devonshire mansion. These people care so much for socialism and left-oriented politics, but when it comes down to it, they wouldn't give up their homes to house a poor family, they wouldn't give up another chunk of their wage to feed the starving, and they wouldn't give up their job to let someone else's perceieved unprivileged background get paid, or give up their university place to a minority.

Things like poverty and homelessness need to be sorted out over time, but you can't solve these issues by incencitising sloth traits.

"None of us are dependant on benefits, we all have well paid jobs, all own our own homes. Yet all of us would rather eat shit than vote Tory."

You know nothing about me.

I grew up in relative poverty, in the kind of neighbourhood where learning how to fight wasn't an option, but a necessity. I've walked to school through the snow in plimsoles because my parents couldn't afford to buy me shoes, despite them both working. I never had so much as a weekend in Skeggy as a kid. That's where I learned my socialist values. And just because I'm lucky enough to have a better life now - and I don't live in a mansion in Devon or anywhere else - I see no reason to change my values and turn my back on the kind of people I grew up among. It's called integrity.

[davieG]

The other side of the benefits coin.

 

 

 

Facebook paid £4,327 corporation tax in 2014

• 2 hours ago
•  
• From the sectionBusiness

Image copyrightGetty Images

Social network giant Facebook paid just £4,327 ($6,643) in corporation tax in 2014, its latest UK results show.

Its most recent Companies House filing shows the company as making a pre-tax loss of £28.5m last year, but the firm also paid its 362 UK staff a total of £35.4m in share bonuses.

The share bonuses amount to £96,000 on average per UK Facebook employee.

It means Facebook's UK corporation tax bill was less than the tax the average UK employee paid on their salary.

The average UK salary is £26,500 on which employees pay a total of £5,392.80 in income tax and national insurance contributions.

In January, Facebook reported global fourth-quarter profits of $701m (£462m), a 34% increase on the same period a year earlier.

Total profits for the year were $2.9bn, almost double its profit for 2013.

Facebook said at the time that advertising revenue grew by 53% to $3.59bn, with nearly 70% of that coming from mobile ad sales.

The social networking giant says it now has 1.39 billion active users each month, a 13% increase from a year ago.

EU probe

The latest revelations will reignite the debate about how much UK corporation tax companies pay at a time when several multinational corporations are being investigated by the European Commission over the tax arrangements they have with European Union member states.

Google, Amazon, a division of the Fiat motor company and Starbucks are all subject to the investigation and the European Commission has said it could widen its probe further.

The investigation came after Starbucks was revealed to have paid just £8.6m in UK corporation tax in the 14 years between 1998 and 2012, despite making more than £3bn in UK sales in the same period.

Last week, EU finance ministers agreed to boost information sharing in response to the so-called LuxLeaks scandal that emerged last year. The scandal showed Luxembourg had issued hundreds of tax rulings allowing companies to lower their tax bill by funnelling their profits through the country.

A spokesperson for Facebook said: "We are compliant with UK tax law, and in fact in all countries where we have operations and offices. We continue to grow our business activities in the UK."

They added that all the firm's employees paid UK income tax on their payouts.

The company recently secured the lease on a high-profile 227,324 sq ft office space in Rathbone Square, near Tottenham Court Road in London, where it plans to open a new headquarters in 2017.

John O'Connell, director of the Taxpayers' Alliance, said: "Taxpayers will be justifiably confused and angry about this tax bill. But Facebook is right to say that it is complying with UK law, which shows that the problem lies with our complex tax code, and that is what politicians should address as a matter of urgency.

"We have to ensure our taxes are simple to eliminate loopholes, and that taxes are low to increase our competitiveness, so that companies choose to base themselves here."

Conservative MP Mark Garnier, a member of Parliament's Treasury Select Committee told the BBC that even if companies were not breaking any laws, they should think about their moral responsibility.

"It's about the spirit of the law versus the letter of the law. At the end of the day tax evasion is illegal, when you're deliberately setting out to not pay your tax by hiding your money," he said.

"Tax planning is what most people will be doing with their pensions. And tax avoidance is where you take the letter of the law, to get around the spirit of the law, where you're actively seeking a way of using the letters to not pay tax."

In his March Budget, Chancellor George Osborne pressed ahead with plans tointroduce a diverted profits tax on companies that moved their profits overseas.

He added that firms that aided tax evasion would also face new penalties and criminal prosecutions.

The so-called "Google Tax" is designed to discourage large companies diverting profits out of the UK to avoid tax.

And last week, an OECD/G20 report found that laws allowing companies to shift profits to low-tax jurisdictions meant between $100bn and $240bn was lost in tax revenues every year - equivalent to between 4% and 10% of global corporate tax revenues.

 

 

[Claridge]

Apologies for missing this.

Among my social circle, there isn't a man or woman who are not better off in terms of personal finances under the Tories. None of us are dependant on benefits, we all have well paid jobs, all own our own homes. Yet all of us would rather eat shit than vote Tory because we care about the kind of society we live in. We don't want to live in a society where people are left destitute because they are inadequate, or sick, or just plain unlucky. We can't accept that in one of the richest nations, we have people dependant on food banks. We absolutely reject austerity, because although we are not affected personally, millions of the most disadvantaged are. And that diminshes us all.

There's a whole gang of moralising left wing middle class pillocks on the loose? God ,I bet your discussions are fun. Get out a bit more Bucie and  see the real world

[MooseBreath]

The fact that they would be 'straightforward' to overcome (whether that's true or not is up for debate) is irrelevant - IMO if they're the result of another person or people they shouldn't be there in the first place, and if they're the result of another factor efforts should be made by others to help. Evidently, however, you think differently.

If it's overly idealistic and romantic to believe in the idea that humanity should cooperate and show empathy with each other rather than accepting the idea that humans should seek to fvck each other over on a consistent basis (and as an addenum lose the utterly specious idea that how we work defines who we are) then fair enough, I'm an idealist. Of course edging into the more cynical side of the spectrum I also know that far too many people still think might makes right, evolution hasn't got us to the stage where we can get past that yet. We can care deeply - selflessly - about ourselves and perhaps certain people we know, but that empathy rarely extends beyond our own line of sight.

Wow, someone have some time on r/theredpill or /pol/ fora today? Lot of boxes ticked in that one, particularly the first paragraph.

And I'll make the same point as I did to Moose. Why is it that how we work defines us? And why is talking about the idea of a more equal society always deemed overly idealistic, and by extension unrealistic or unattainable?

There is help available, lots of it in fact, funded by the tax payer. I'm all for offering assistance to people, I'm against assistance becoming sustenance.

I've not suggested that "how we work defines what we are". I don't know what you've been reading but it isn't applicable to this situation. We're talking about the basics of survival, of people doing what they need to do to keep themselves alive without relying on help from others. Philosophical questions have no place at the level we're talking about.

[Bellend Sebastian]

 

The other side of the benefits coin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not that far off what I paid in income tax.

 

You can't say that's not fair, can you?

 

Oh, right

[Buce]

There's a whole gang of moralising left wing middle class pillocks on the loose? God ,I bet your discussions are fun. Get out a bit more Bucie and see the real world

I can only assume you didn't bother reading my last post.

As for seeing 'the real world', I spent the first twenty years of my adult life travelling and doing exactly that.

[bovril]

Where is this 'real world' that the righties keep going on about? Sounds bloody awful.

[Claridge]

You know nothing about me.

I grew up in relative poverty, in the kind of neighbourhood where learning how to fight wasn't an option, but a necessity. I've walked to school through the snow in plimsoles because my parents couldn't afford to buy me shoes, despite them both working. I never had so much as a weekend in Skeggy as a kid. That's where I learned my socialist values. And just because I'm lucky enough to have a better life now - and I don't live in a mansion in Devon or anywhere else - I see no reason to change my values and turn my back on the kind of people I grew up among. It's called integrity.

Glad to see you worked hard and have done well for yourself Buce.

Does it not annoy you when others don't make the effort that you obviously have? 

One bonus,was not going to Skeggy in the 80s. It was grim

[Alf Bentley]

Says a lot really. Champagne socialists are too far removed from the problems to have any idea what the causes are or how to solve them. Their proposed solutions never go further than throwing money at it and in that way they expose their naivety. Really for them it's more about feeling good about themselves and metaphorically patting each other on the back for how compassionate they are while they sip champagne and eat nut roast next to a nice warm fire.

At least money driven tories are honest about their motivations.

 

I occasionally do polls for YouGov and they send the odd update re. their findings.

 

Just received this one: "And you know those do-gooder lefties who are all morally righteous about helping the poor and needy?  Turns out that’s a myth too.  In fact, right-leaning people are significantly more likely to believe that they are morally superior than the rest of society".

 

 

Hang on, I'll just call the new Slovakian au pair (thanks for letting her in, Dave). She can pour me a nice cool glass of champagne while I enjoy roasting my nuts in front of the fire, like any true socialist should do...

[Strokes]

Where is this 'real world' that the righties keep going on about? Sounds bloody awful.

It is, and you lefties are making it worse

[Buce]

Glad to see you worked hard and have done well for yourself Buce.

Does it not annoy you when others don't make the effort that you obviously have?

One bonus,was not going to Skeggy in the 80s. It was grim

More by luck than hard work, tbh; I found something I'm good at.

My one and only trip to Skeggy was in the 80s (I grew up in the 60s), and, yes, it was disappointing, to say the least. I dare say I'd have felt differently as a child, though.

[Claridge]

More by luck than hard work, tbh; I found something I'm good at.

My one and only trip to Skeggy was in the 80s (I grew up in the 60s), and, yes, it was disappointing, to say the least. I dare say I'd have felt differently as a child, though.

its quite nice now

[RedSoxUK]

You know nothing about me.

I grew up in relative poverty, in the kind of neighbourhood where learning how to fight wasn't an option, but a necessity. I've walked to school through the snow in plimsoles because my parents couldn't afford to buy me shoes, despite them both working. I never had so much as a weekend in Skeggy as a kid. That's where I learned my socialist values. And just because I'm lucky enough to have a better life now - and I don't live in a mansion in Devon or anywhere else - I see no reason to change my values and turn my back on the kind of people I grew up among. It's called integrity.

 

I was generalising, not specifically attacking you personally, I don't know you at all.. it's just this consistant cushty left-wing opposition of 'tory scum' I find extremely distatesful when they don't do anything about it but moan about being under a Tory government.

 

Good on you for working through it.

[Guest]

Pretty sure claridge is trolling, no-one can be that stupid.

 

Oh yes they can!