leicsmac Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 13 minutes ago, MattP said: You mean the "women who agree with women like us" march. When they're not too busy disagreeing with each other. That's a thing too.
bovril Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 2 minutes ago, Fox92 said: Davison cleared it with Pankhurst Well that's good. I'd hate to think the suffragette movement was tainted by people failing to follow proper workplace protocol.
Fox92 Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 Just now, bovril said: Well that's good. I'd hate to think the suffragette movement was tainted by people failing to follow proper workplace protocol. Tbf my point wasn't about booking time off work, more of what are they actually achieving. Waste of time if you ask me and not comparable to the Suffragettes.
Guest MattP Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 I like this from Brendan O'Neill today. "TRUMP?! HOW DID THIS HAPPEN??" It happened because you banned super-size sodas. And smoking in parks. And offensive ideas on campus. Because you branded people who oppose gay marriage 'homophobic', and people unsure about immigration 'racist'. Because you treated owning a gun and never having eaten quinoa as signifiers of fascism. Because you thought correcting people's attitudes was more important than finding them jobs. Because you turned 'white man' from a description into an insult. Because you used slurs like 'denier' and 'dangerous' against anyone who doesn't share your eco-pieties. Because you treated dissent as hate speech and criticism of Obama as extremism. Because you talked more about gender-neutral toilets than about home repossessions. Because you beatified Caitlyn Jenner. Because you policed people's language, rubbished their parenting skills, took the piss out of their beliefs. Because you cried when someone mocked the Koran but laughed when they mocked the Bible. Because you said criticising Islam is Islamophobia. Because you kept telling people, "You can't think that, you can't say that, you can't do that". Because you turned politics from something done by and for people to something done to them, for their own good. Because you treated people like shit. And people don't like being treated like shit. Trump happened because of you.
bovril Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 4 minutes ago, Fox92 said: Tbf my point wasn't about booking time off work, more of what are they actually achieving. Waste of time if you ask me and not comparable to the Suffragettes. Exercising ones democratic right to free assembly and free speech is never a 'waste of time'.
Fox92 Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 Just now, bovril said: Exercising ones democratic right to free assembly and free speech is never a 'waste of time'. Very true of course. To bad they don't actually live in America, mind.
bovril Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 19 minutes ago, MattP said: I like this from Brendan O'Neill today. "TRUMP?! HOW DID THIS HAPPEN??" It happened because you banned super-size sodas. And smoking in parks. And offensive ideas on campus. Because you branded people who oppose gay marriage 'homophobic', and people unsure about immigration 'racist'. Because you treated owning a gun and never having eaten quinoa as signifiers of fascism. Because you thought correcting people's attitudes was more important than finding them jobs. Because you turned 'white man' from a description into an insult. Because you used slurs like 'denier' and 'dangerous' against anyone who doesn't share your eco-pieties. Because you treated dissent as hate speech and criticism of Obama as extremism. Because you talked more about gender-neutral toilets than about home repossessions. Because you beatified Caitlyn Jenner. Because you policed people's language, rubbished their parenting skills, took the piss out of their beliefs. Because you cried when someone mocked the Koran but laughed when they mocked the Bible. Because you said criticising Islam is Islamophobia. Because you kept telling people, "You can't think that, you can't say that, you can't do that". Because you turned politics from something done by and for people to something done to them, for their own good. Because you treated people like shit. And people don't like being treated like shit. Trump happened because of you. That's bullshit though, isn't it. If that's the case why did he get fewer votes than Clinton this year and Romney in 2012? You obviously want to portray Trump's victory as some great backlash against everything you dislike (lefty luvvies etc etc) but nobody goes into a polling booth and thinks about gender neutral toilets and Caitlyn Jenner. Anyway, spent too much time on FT this morning, need to do some fvcking work. Come the revolution idle slackers like me will be first against the wall...
Barky Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 45 minutes ago, leicsmac said: This discussion has been had before. Yes, allowing the evolutionary principle to given human behaviour (competitiveness, greed etc) economically and socially does lead to improvements. Right up to the point that suddenly a change is too big to deal with and a species goes extinct. It's happened so many times with other species in the past. As you put it, capitalism and other such behaviour like it didn't save the dinosaurs...so why would it save us when the time comes? Dinosaurs didn't have capitalism It's ridiculous to equate a species with a society as advanced as humans with any other known species.
leicsmac Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 4 minutes ago, Barky said: Dinosaurs didn't have capitalism It's ridiculous to equate a species with a society as advanced as humans with any other known species. You'd think so, wouldn't you? But for all our tech and societal advances, and the way we've changed the Earth to fit ourselves (to a degree)...the way we run our societies is still, for the most part, very much like other animals. Competition, fighting, struggling to get the the top to make sure me and mine (whether family, race or whatever) are going to be ok for the next generation. Hell, capitalism is an economic theory based on that very principle - at a base level, anyway. Some wealthier nations have schemes to protect those less well off, but more intelligent other animals also look after the weak and those welfare schemes are consistently under criticism and threat anyway. The one way we ARE different from those in the past is that we're actually aware of this situation, and so could change it if we wanted to.
Merging Cultures Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 Two hours to go, I know it is raining, but there doesn't seem to be too many people there yet. One would think with security etc, they would have been advised to arrive at least an hour and half early, so I'd expect to see more people. Well, except that it is Trump and no one wants to go.
Guest MattP Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 20 minutes ago, Merging Cultures said: Two hours to go, I know it is raining, but there doesn't seem to be too many people there yet. One would think with security etc, they would have been advised to arrive at least an hour and half early, so I'd expect to see more people. Well, except that it is Trump and no one wants to go. It's Trump in Washington. Like Santa Claus trying to draw a crowd in Saudi Arabia.
leicsmac Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 33 minutes ago, bovril said: That's bullshit though, isn't it. If that's the case why did he get fewer votes than Clinton this year and Romney in 2012? You obviously want to portray Trump's victory as some great backlash against everything you dislike (lefty luvvies etc etc) but nobody goes into a polling booth and thinks about gender neutral toilets and Caitlyn Jenner. Anyway, spent too much time on FT this morning, need to do some fvcking work. Come the revolution idle slackers like me will be first against the wall... This. Economics won it in the key states for Trump, not identity politics. I got that wrong at the time too. And, whatever else is in that list aside, doing the equivalent of burying heads in the sand regarding our changing environment IS dangerous.
Merging Cultures Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 6 minutes ago, MattP said: It's Trump in Washington. Like Santa Claus trying to draw a crowd in Saudi Arabia. I think Santa Claus probably draws a big crowd in Saudi. Jesus, probably not so much. But yeah, the locals are not turning out for Trump, but neither are his 'supporters' across the country.
Guest MattP Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 2 minutes ago, Merging Cultures said: I think Santa Claus probably draws a big crowd in Saudi. Jesus, probably not so much. But yeah, the locals are not turning out for Trump, but neither are his 'supporters' across the country. Would you get on a plane, spends loads of money and a weekend on seeing it? I'm a political obsessive and I wouldn't.
Merging Cultures Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 4 minutes ago, MattP said: Would you get on a plane, spends loads of money and a weekend on seeing it? I'm a political obsessive and I wouldn't. A lot of people do. When I was working in DC it was a nightmare. Mind you I was there when Obama was inaugurated, so a bit different to this tangerine.
leicsmac Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 5 minutes ago, MattP said: Would you get on a plane, spends loads of money and a weekend on seeing it? I'm a political obsessive and I wouldn't. It's a little interesting. You'd think given the passion he aroused and how massively partisan things got that there would be a veritable horde coming out to Washington to celebrate this win...but there isn't.
Nick Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 9 minutes ago, MattP said: I like this from Brendan O'Neill today. "TRUMP?! HOW DID THIS HAPPEN??" It happened because you banned super-size sodas. And smoking in parks. And offensive ideas on campus. Because you branded people who oppose gay marriage 'homophobic', and people unsure about immigration 'racist'. Because you treated owning a gun and never having eaten quinoa as signifiers of fascism. Because you thought correcting people's attitudes was more important than finding them jobs. Because you turned 'white man' from a description into an insult. Because you used slurs like 'denier' and 'dangerous' against anyone who doesn't share your eco-pieties. Because you treated dissent as hate speech and criticism of Obama as extremism. Because you talked more about gender-neutral toilets than about home repossessions. Because you beatified Caitlyn Jenner. Because you policed people's language, rubbished their parenting skills, took the piss out of their beliefs. Because you cried when someone mocked the Koran but laughed when they mocked the Bible. Because you said criticising Islam is Islamophobia. Because you kept telling people, "You can't think that, you can't say that, you can't do that". Because you turned politics from something done by and for people to something done to them, for their own good. Because you treated people like shit. And people don't like being treated like shit. Trump happened because of you. Well I think that's an idealistic attempt to justify voting to bring back 1972. I reckon Trump happened because people felt disillusioned, polarised and threatened so in turn voted to protect insular interests. Whilst for those less wealthy the decision seemed to be based on economic promises and for the more wealthy the preservation of identity, both concepts married well, capturing hearts and minds from both demographics. I don't think large sections of white America were as ready as they thought for a black president and equally were not ready for a female one either. This whole daft argument I hear whispered in pubs about 'being offended on behalf of other people' and "I speak my mind and I get called a homophobe and a racist - what happened to my freedom of speech" makes me laugh. It's like a bizarre toolkit to license any behaviour or act without ending to understand or take responsibility for the impact or consequences. I live outside of Leicester and I get people telling me that Leicester has no-go areas because of 'Blacks' but have never been to Leicester. I get people telling me that gay people shouldn't be allowed to be openly gay in public and certainly not be able to marry because they find it difficult to look at. And then when they are challenged about harbouring and verbalising their statements and opinions because they're absolute nonsense or dated horseshite, they cry about not being able to express their opinions and seem genuinely confused by their ignorance not taking a valid presidence over minor concepts like equality and human rights. The world, values and the people in it are changing more now than ever due to social and digital communications but not as quickly as very slowly diminishing dominant white cultures who've had it their own way for generations.
The Guvnor Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 55 minutes ago, MattP said: I like this from Brendan O'Neill today. "TRUMP?! HOW DID THIS HAPPEN??" It happened because you banned super-size sodas. And smoking in parks. And offensive ideas on campus. Because you branded people who oppose gay marriage 'homophobic', and people unsure about immigration 'racist'. Because you treated owning a gun and never having eaten quinoa as signifiers of fascism. Because you thought correcting people's attitudes was more important than finding them jobs. Because you turned 'white man' from a description into an insult. Because you used slurs like 'denier' and 'dangerous' against anyone who doesn't share your eco-pieties. Because you treated dissent as hate speech and criticism of Obama as extremism. Because you talked more about gender-neutral toilets than about home repossessions. Because you beatified Caitlyn Jenner. Because you policed people's language, rubbished their parenting skills, took the piss out of their beliefs. Because you cried when someone mocked the Koran but laughed when they mocked the Bible. Because you said criticising Islam is Islamophobia. Because you kept telling people, "You can't think that, you can't say that, you can't do that". Because you turned politics from something done by and for people to something done to them, for their own good. Because you treated people like shit. And people don't like being treated like shit. Trump happened because of you. Agreed, and the times they are a changing.
Finnaldo Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 14 minutes ago, leicsmac said: This. Economics won it in the key states for Trump, not identity politics. I got that wrong at the time too. And, whatever else is in that list aside, doing the equivalent of burying heads in the sand regarding our changing environment IS dangerous. While economics won it for Trump, I'd argue Matt's post holds true to some extent. Hillary lost due to identity politics. While the economy is also a major factor, I probably don't need to remind you how terms like racists, misogynists etc. were bandied around in the election run. I'd argue with some of the stuff Trump said some of it could of held weight. But since people have been showered in such petty, redefined 'misogyny' and 'racism' over various medias, it doesn't come as much surprise. Whilst i'd argue there has been some clearly misogynist or racist incidents over the years that needed addressing, it's been taken to such trivial extremes in some areas it completely washes off a lot of people, especially the 'white cis male' a lot of it is targeted at. There was so much genuine wrongs in Trump's campaign that could of been used against him had identity politics not been totally worn and abused over the years. Instead it had no effect on Trump's standing and made Hillary's stance significantly weaker.
leicsmac Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 3 minutes ago, Finnaldo said: While economics won it for Trump, I'd argue Matt's post holds true to some extent. Hillary lost due to identity politics. While the economy is also a major factor, I probably don't need to remind you how terms like racists, misogynists etc. were bandied around in the election run. I'd argue with some of the stuff Trump said some of it could of held weight. But since people have been showered in such petty, redefined 'misogyny' and 'racism' over various medias, it doesn't come as much surprise. Whilst i'd argue there has been some clearly misogynist or racist incidents over the years that needed addressing, it's been taken to such trivial extremes in some areas it completely washes off a lot of people, especially the 'white cis male' a lot of it is targeted at. There was so much genuine wrings in Trump's campaign that could of been used against him had identity politics been totally worn and abused over the years. Instead it had no effect on Trump's standing and made Hillary's stance significantly weaker. There's something in that. But people always go on about "crying wolf" (as is the case with identity politics) and they seem to forget what happens at the end of the story.
Guest MattP Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 10 minutes ago, leicsmac said: It's a little interesting. You'd think given the passion he aroused and how massively partisan things got that there would be a veritable horde coming out to Washington to celebrate this win...but there isn't. A huge percentage of these crowds are from Washington/New York, the whole of the Tri state area would pile down for Obama, Trump support is clearly not from these parts. Not to mention a lot of those roused by Trump probably can't afford a weekend in Washington.
leicsmac Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 Just now, MattP said: A huge percentage of these crowds are from Washington/New York, the whole of the Tri state area would pile down for Obama, Trump support is clearly not from these parts. Not to mention a lot of those roused by Trump probably can't afford a weekend in Washington. Didn't the demographics show that a lot of middle-income folks went for Trump? I'd have thought the ones in PA, WI as well as those who went for him in libertarian country (like here) would want a piece of this.
Merging Cultures Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 DC folk usually disappear for each inauguration. As they have done for this one. Too many tourists and when you work in DC, you meet politicians all the time and this isn't fun for them. People come from all over for these things.
Guest MattP Posted 20 January 2017 Posted 20 January 2017 13 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Didn't the demographics show that a lot of middle-income folks went for Trump? I'd have thought the ones in PA, WI as well as those who went for him in libertarian country (like here) would want a piece of this. Who knows? Maybe they also don't want to be abused, spat at and assaulted by baying mobs who think they are entitled to do that people because they vote differently to them?
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