Finnaldo Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 36 minutes ago, leicsmac said: There's something in that. But people always go on about "crying wolf" (as is the case with identity politics) and they seem to forget what happens at the end of the story. I understand your point, I'm aware that there are racial issues that need to be resolved, but too often it's blamed on 'white males', 'white culture'. It has nothing to do with whiteness. It happened to be a lot of these laws, rules and stigmas that allow racial issues to arise were created or originated in a time where few modern ethics existed, where workhouses and indentured servitude, white or black, was the norm. It was a period where domination mattered over human life. It just so happened that European culture was the dominant culture at that time and continues to be so. It's easy to forget the Arab slave trade, or that Gandhi suggested that whites and Indians hold equal dominance over the 'kaffirs' (for those unfamiliar with the term, it's the Indian equivalent to the N word for those of African descent). White domination isn't necessarily the problem. It's the fact that some of the unjust and discriminate social aspects of an era where divisiveness and undercutting made it easier to control and dominate never fully adjusted to the sudden shift of modern ethics. We have a whole human history of 'the strongest kind survive' but only in the last 50-60 years have we fully realised that humans no matter what colour are humans and that we can accommodate everyone to a decent standard of living. And old habits die hard. Social strife will never heal while divisive terms like 'white priviledge' and 'mansplaining' quash any chance of real conversation to heal the rift. By targeting out 'kinds' to blame you just create the opportunity for someone else to become a victim. It results in the kind of thing we saw when a group of black kids tortured a disabled white kid because he may have voted Trump, rather than trying to push those who can change an unfair system. If we saw it as 'black poverty and unfair treatment', rather than 'black poverty and unfair treatment due to white cultural domination', perhaps we'd see more of an impact, instead we've got Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detroit Blues Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 41 minutes ago, Finnaldo said: While economics won it for Trump, I'd argue Matt's post holds true to some extent. Hillary lost due to identity politics. While the economy is also a major factor, I probably don't need to remind you how terms like racists, misogynists etc. were bandied around in the election run. I'd argue with some of the stuff Trump said some of it could of held weight. But since people have been showered in such petty, redefined 'misogyny' and 'racism' over various medias, it doesn't come as much surprise. Whilst i'd argue there has been some clearly misogynist or racist incidents over the years that needed addressing, it's been taken to such trivial extremes in some areas it completely washes off a lot of people, especially the 'white cis male' a lot of it is targeted at. There was so much genuine wrings in Trump's campaign that could of been used against him had identity politics been totally worn and abused over the years. Instead it had no effect on Trump's standing and made Hillary's stance significantly weaker. I think that the identity politics debate is all narrative, and had very little to do with the actual election results. I think the two biggest reasons Trump won was: #1 - Democrats being unsatisfied with Hillary Clinton as nominee . Bernie Sanders followers were not enthused about voting for Hillary, especially after it came out that the DNC tried to rig the election. Hillary lost Michigan to Bernie, so is it that surprising that she lost it to Trump? A lot of disillusioned democrats probably voted for Jill Stein, Gary Johnson, or not at all. #2 - Trump connected with independent voters from the Midwest. Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania voted for Obama in 2012, but then voted for Trump in 2016. These are states with workers who have suffered greatly in the last 20 years due to the loss of good paying (union) manufacturing jobs. Trump criticized NAFTA, TPP, and other free trade agreements, which the workers blame for their manufacturing plants moving to Mexico and China. Hillary promised them the status quo, and that things would be the same as it was under Obama. But the issue is these people used to make $20-30 an hour on the assembly line, and now they're working at Walmart making $10 an hour or less and with significantly worse benefits. Why would they want more of the same? Trump promised them to bring manufacturing jobs back, and they're hoping he's right. In my opinion, conservatives who hate gay marriage, abortion, censorship, immigrants, Hollywood celebrity worship, etc. were going to vote Republican anyway. Also, this may be an irrelevant topic, but more people voted for Clinton than they did for Trump. In fact, a higher % of American voters actually voted for Mitt Romney in 2012 than they did for Donald Trump in 2016. So although it may look like Trump won in a landslide, he actually just won a bunch of states that have a disproportionate amount of electoral votes due to the setup of our political system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 2 minutes ago, Finnaldo said: I understand your point, I'm aware that there are racial issues that need to be resolved, but too often it's blamed on 'white males', 'white culture'. It has nothing to do with whiteness. It happened to be a lot of these laws, rules and stigmas that allow racial issues to arise were created or originated in a time where few modern ethics existed, where workhouses and indentured servitude, white or black, was the norm. It was a period where domination mattered over human life. It just so happened that European culture was the dominant culture at that time and continues to be so. It's easy to forget the Arab slave trade, or that Gandhi suggested that whites and Indians hold equal dominance over the 'kaffirs' (for those unfamiliar with the term, it's the Indian equivalent to the N word for those of African descent). White domination isn't necessarily the problem. It's the fact that some of the unjust and discriminate social aspects of an era where divisiveness and undercutting made it easier to control and dominate never fully adjusted to the sudden shift of modern ethics. We have a whole human history of 'the strongest kind survive' but only in the last 50-60 years have we fully realised that humans no matter what colour are humans we can accommodate everyone to a decent standard of living. Social strife will never heal while divisive terms like 'white priviledge' and 'mansplaining' quash any chance of real conversation to heal the rift. By targeting out 'kinds' to blame you just create the opportunity for someone else to become a victim. It results in the kind of thing we saw when a group of black kids tortured a disabled white kid because he may have voted Trump, rather than trying to push those who can change an unfair system. If we saw it as 'black poverty and unfair treatment', rather than 'black poverty and unfair treatment due to white cultural domination', perhaps we'd see more of an impact, instead we've got Trump. You really do get it, completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 14 minutes ago, MattP said: Who knows? Maybe they also don't want to be abused, spat at and assaulted by baying mobs who think they are entitled to do that people because they vote differently to them? I think their reasoning might be a tad stronger than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 2 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: I think their reasoning might be a tad stronger than that. Are you watching the news? I'm just watching an old bloke being shoved about by a load of young mask wearing anti fascist action types for trying to get through a checkpoint. You had to admire anyone prepared to go through this shit to watch an inauguration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 Just now, MattP said: Are you watching the news? I'm just watching an old bloke being shoved about by a load of young mask wearing anti fascist action types for trying to get through a checkpoint. You had to admire anyone prepared to go through this shit to watch an inauguration. I've now got an image of you sat in your pants watching RT News having the time of your life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 Just now, Swan Lesta said: I've now got an image of you sat in your pants watching RT News having the time of your life! Even worse, dressing gown and evil Murdoch Sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 Just now, MattP said: Even worse, dressing gown and evil Murdoch Sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnaldo Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 7 minutes ago, Detroit Blues said: #2 - Trump connected with independent voters from the Midwest. Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania voted for Obama in 2012, but then voted for Trump in 2016. These are states with workers who have suffered greatly in the last 20 years due to the loss of good paying (union) manufacturing jobs. Trump criticized NAFTA, TPP, and other free trade agreements, which the workers blame for their manufacturing plants moving to Mexico and China. Hillary promised them the status quo, and that things would be the same as it was under Obama. But the issue is these people used to make $20-30 an hour on the assembly line, and now they're working at Walmart making $10 an hour or less and with significantly worse benefits. Why would they want more of the same? Trump promised them to bring manufacturing jobs back, and they're hoping he's right. In my opinion, conservatives who hate gay marriage, abortion, censorship, immigrants, Hollywood celebrity worship, etc. were going to vote Republican anyway. I appreciate as a native you have a lot more understanding than I do and I enjoy reading your contributions. I think I went on a tangent about that point as well but this point fits into my point, I'm not arguing against it, it's part of the larger narrative. Independent voters who lost those manufacturing jobs are gonna be more engaged on Trump's promise of jobs than Hillary Clinton bringing out Jay-Z and Beyonce saying it's all gonna be OK under Hillary. It's also not necessarily hating Hollywood, but this election it's been more visible than ever, especially as the desperation crept in and we had Danny DeVito on TV laying into Trump with so any buzzwords it was basically identity politics bingo.The identity politics made them indifferent to Hillary and the guarantee of jobs drew them to Trump. It was just a cog in Trump's machine but it was a part nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 The mask wearing red and black flag mob have started. Tipping bins over and smashing businesses' windows, really making a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 2 minutes ago, MattP said: The mask wearing red and black flag mob have started. Tipping bins over and smashing businesses' windows, really making a difference. Lads in black jackets kicking over bins? Man United must have DC United away tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkon84 Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 Decent enough reception for Bill & Hillary there, which was nice to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 1 minute ago, Darkon84 said: Decent enough reception for Bill & Hillary there, which was nice to see. Bet she's nervous, the second he's in power he'll get the FED's to nab her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkon84 Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 3 minutes ago, Babylon said: Bet she's nervous, the second he's in power he'll get the FED's to nab her. Probably. Trump's got to make it that far first. As grim a thought as it is, I bet the odds on an assassination today are short. Today must be absolutely killing her inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 37 minutes ago, Finnaldo said: I understand your point, I'm aware that there are racial issues that need to be resolved, but too often it's blamed on 'white males', 'white culture'. It has nothing to do with whiteness. It happened to be a lot of these laws, rules and stigmas that allow racial issues to arise were created or originated in a time where few modern ethics existed, where workhouses and indentured servitude, white or black, was the norm. It was a period where domination mattered over human life. It just so happened that European culture was the dominant culture at that time and continues to be so. It's easy to forget the Arab slave trade, or that Gandhi suggested that whites and Indians hold equal dominance over the 'kaffirs' (for those unfamiliar with the term, it's the Indian equivalent to the N word for those of African descent). White domination isn't necessarily the problem. It's the fact that some of the unjust and discriminate social aspects of an era where divisiveness and undercutting made it easier to control and dominate never fully adjusted to the sudden shift of modern ethics. We have a whole human history of 'the strongest kind survive' but only in the last 50-60 years have we fully realised that humans no matter what colour are humans and that we can accommodate everyone to a decent standard of living. And old habits die hard. Social strife will never heal while divisive terms like 'white priviledge' and 'mansplaining' quash any chance of real conversation to heal the rift. By targeting out 'kinds' to blame you just create the opportunity for someone else to become a victim. It results in the kind of thing we saw when a group of black kids tortured a disabled white kid because he may have voted Trump, rather than trying to push those who can change an unfair system. If we saw it as 'black poverty and unfair treatment', rather than 'black poverty and unfair treatment due to white cultural domination', perhaps we'd see more of an impact, instead we've got Trump. Your reasoning is sound regarding identity politics - and I'm sure that it did play a part in the thinking of a fair few people who voted Trump and so was a factor is his victory. However right now while taking into account how he won is a matter for thought, it isn't the key issue - not for another four years when it'll need to be known and accounted for, anyhow. The key issue right now is trying to at least inhibit those within the currently dominant party who would very much like to abandon those modern ethics of which you speak, to set the clock back to when that domination was the norm. The old habits are dying very hard indeed - and right now there are those looking to revive them completely. You're right in that it was coincidental that White European Male Christian culture was the dominant one, but that's no reason not to take into account that a large swathe of the current American legislature and voter based want to bring back that same dominance. Not in the same way as it used to be, obviously - you wouldn't get away with indentured servitude after all - but to certainly adjust the levers of power so that they remain in control of making, passing and enforcing laws for the forseeable future. The folks who were sick of identity politics may not have wanted those things when they voted Republican, but they may well get them anyway. We're so concerned about asking questions about the nature of that dominance that we could well be letting it happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Black Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnaldo Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 Just now, leicsmac said: Your reasoning is sound regarding identity politics - and I'm sure that it did play a part in the thinking of a fair few people who voted Trump and so was a factor is his victory. However right now while taking into account how he won is a matter for thought, it isn't the key issue - not for another four years when it'll need to be known and accounted for, anyhow. The key issue right now is trying to at least inhibit those within the currently dominant party who would very much like to abandon those modern ethics of which you speak, to set the clock back to when that domination was the norm. The old habits are dying very hard indeed - and right now there are those looking to revive them completely. You're right in that it was coincidental that White European Male Christian culture was the dominant one, but that's no reason not to take into account that a large swathe of the current American legislature and voter based want to bring back that same dominance. Not in the same way as it used to be, obviously - you wouldn't get away with indentured servitude after all - but to certainly adjust the levers of power so that they remain in control of making, passing and enforcing laws for the forseeable future. The folks who were sick of identity politics may not have wanted those things when they voted Republican, but they may well get them anyway. We're so concerned about asking questions about the nature of that dominance that we could well be letting it happen again. That's up for the Democrats to step up and take on now, it could be a very rough four years indeed and I live in hope it won't be as bad as it could be, but the Dems need to play their part as well and rebuild on a platform which means this kind of thing doesn't happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryn Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 Feel physically ill watching this. Any luck he will simply spend a couple of years being shackled by Congress and then get impeached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 4 minutes ago, Bryn said: Feel physically ill watching this. Any luck he will simply spend a couple of years being shackled by Congress and then get impeached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 Be honest Bryn - you're hoping for a sniper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryn Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 I'd never wish it on anyone but I wouldn't shed a tear either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 Lot's of Christianity going on in this...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 Oh we're praying for Trump and that God gives him some wisdom - anything is worth a try at this point I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 Seeing Hillary Clinton with a smile faker than a CNN news report has been the highlight of this so far. I have no idea how good or bad this will be but I'd be feeling sick if she was standing up there now about to be President. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 bleddy ell they are absolutely mad on Jesus aren't they? Weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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