A question of balance

[catfordfox]

Starting to think that the core problem we're seeing this season is ultimately the same one that Pearson was wrestling with for most of the first season in the top flight - namely getting a coherent balance within the first 11. While the players we had in the Championship were too good for that league, once we'd come up, Pearson found it hugely difficult to come with a tactical system which enabled us to be tight at the back and yet still create chances - for a lot of the season it was either one or the other, we'd look better at the back but then stop looking like scoring, or look better in attack and start letting in stupid goals. He chopped and changed tactics loads that season, and never managed to find a way of fitting Mahrez and Vardy in the team, playing to their strengths at all - hence Vardy out wide for a lot of games, and Mahrez in and out of the side (off the top of my head i can't remember how often he tried 4-4-2, but it clearly didnt work if he did). By a stroke of luck Pearson finally managed to discover the 3-5-2, which did at last strike the right balance, and the rest is history. The one thing Pearson did have on his side though was the incredible team spirit he and Shakespeare had built up over the past couple of seasons, better than any team spirit I've seen at any club ever, and that ensured the players kept fighting even when everything was going wrong.

 

Then when Ranieri arrived, he was faced with the same problem - either good going forward and bad at the back (the arsenal 5-2 game), or vice versa. Kante solved that problem - once he was established in the side, he made it possible to play 4-4-2, because he provided enough cover that we didn't need 3 centrebacks, and won the ball back quickly enough that Mahrez consistently got the ball high up the pitch. We were also helped by other teams treating us like relegation fodder, so leaving plenty of space for Vardy to exploit, as long as we shifted the ball to him quickly - the speed with which we were able to move the ball from front to back meant that we could afford to have pretty one dimensional full backs who rarely joined the attack. Once Ranieri had worked that balanced system out, he managed the team masterfully - especially towards the end when teams had worked our tactics out and sat deep. A combination of the aforementioned team spirit and some very smart game management by Ranieri got us through that period.

 

In many ways, this season with the loss of Kante, Ranieri is faced with the same problem as Pearson had two seasons ago - it had become clear by October (probably earlier) that 4-4-2 without Kante wasn't going to work, the midfield was being overrun and there was no cover for the centrebacks. The new signings didn't really add to our options tactically, they were basically attempts at upgrades on what we already had, or an attempt to replace Kante. Ranieri was aware at the end of last season that our title winning tactics weren't going to work as well this season, due to teams figuring it out by the end of last season, so initially wanted a more possession based, passing style. Unfortunately it some became clear that we don't have the players to play that style, and without Kante winning the ball back quickly Mahrez and Vardy no longer get the ball in space, so our main attacking threat is blunted.

 

By October Ranieri realised 4-4-2 wasn't working, so started to change it up to try to find a solution - but like Pearson in 14-15, nothing is working. But unlike Pearson's side, the team spirit is no longer there in the same way (for whatever reason), plus players like Morgan and Huth are a couple of years older now. Ranieri's faced criticism for changing the 'tried and tested' method of 4-4-2 recently, but it hasnt worked properly for nearly half a season now. He had to change it, but because those changes havent worked he's gone back to it for one last try - but same team, same lack of balance, same result - but with added dissent within the squad.

 

The only way we get out of this is by finding a system that works. It's a problem that we've had for years now, and which Kante and other teams arrogance allowed to us to briefly solve for 8-9 months last season. You can blame Ranieri for the way he's tried to solve the problem, but the not the problem itself - nor the players that have been signed which havent really added any real alternative options. You can also blame him for losing the team spirit that Pearson had built up, but that was extraordinary, and probably unsustainable with a bigger squad. Basically I don't think there's an easy answer. Changing managers might work in terms of motivation for a bit, but i don't believe there's a magic solution to the balance problem. Just hope that now he'll finally give up on the last remnants of last season's tactics/players and try something completely new, based around the core of newer/young players (Gray, Chilwell, Slimani, Benalouane), because its the only option we have left.

[Guest Bob Hazels shorts]

4 minutes ago, catfordfox said:

Starting to think that the core problem we're seeing this season is ultimately the same one that Pearson was wrestling with for most of the first season in the top flight - namely getting a coherent balance within the first 11. While the players we had in the Championship were too good for that league, once we'd come up, Pearson found it hugely difficult to come with a tactical system which enabled us to be tight at the back and yet still create chances - for a lot of the season it was either one or the other, we'd look better at the back but then stop looking like scoring, or look better in attack and start letting in stupid goals. He chopped and changed tactics loads that season, and never managed to find a way of fitting Mahrez and Vardy in the team, playing to their strengths at all - hence Vardy out wide for a lot of games, and Mahrez in and out of the side (off the top of my head i can't remember how often he tried 4-4-2, but it clearly didnt work if he did). By a stroke of luck Pearson finally managed to discover the 3-5-2, which did at last strike the right balance, and the rest is history. The one thing Pearson did have on his side though was the incredible team spirit he and Shakespeare had built up over the past couple of seasons, better than any team spirit I've seen at any club ever, and that ensured the players kept fighting even when everything was going wrong.

 

Then when Ranieri arrived, he was faced with the same problem - either good going forward and bad at the back (the arsenal 5-2 game), or vice versa. Kante solved that problem - once he was established in the side, he made it possible to play 4-4-2, because he provided enough cover that we didn't need 3 centrebacks, and won the ball back quickly enough that Mahrez consistently got the ball high up the pitch. We were also helped by other teams treating us like relegation fodder, so leaving plenty of space for Vardy to exploit, as long as we shifted the ball to him quickly - the speed with which we were able to move the ball from front to back meant that we could afford to have pretty one dimensional full backs who rarely joined the attack. Once Ranieri had worked that balanced system out, he managed the team masterfully - especially towards the end when teams had worked our tactics out and sat deep. A combination of the aforementioned team spirit and some very smart game management by Ranieri got us through that period.

 

In many ways, this season with the loss of Kante, Ranieri is faced with the same problem as Pearson had two seasons ago - it had become clear by October (probably earlier) that 4-4-2 without Kante wasn't going to work, the midfield was being overrun and there was no cover for the centrebacks. The new signings didn't really add to our options tactically, they were basically attempts at upgrades on what we already had, or an attempt to replace Kante. Ranieri was aware at the end of last season that our title winning tactics weren't going to work as well this season, due to teams figuring it out by the end of last season, so initially wanted a more possession based, passing style. Unfortunately it some became clear that we don't have the players to play that style, and without Kante winning the ball back quickly Mahrez and Vardy no longer get the ball in space, so our main attacking threat is blunted.

 

By October Ranieri realised 4-4-2 wasn't working, so started to change it up to try to find a solution - but like Pearson in 14-15, nothing is working. But unlike Pearson's side, the team spirit is no longer there in the same way (for whatever reason), plus players like Morgan and Huth are a couple of years older now. Ranieri's faced criticism for changing the 'tried and tested' method of 4-4-2 recently, but it hasnt worked properly for nearly half a season now. He had to change it, but because those changes havent worked he's gone back to it for one last try - but same team, same lack of balance, same result - but with added dissent within the squad.

 

The only way we get out of this is by finding a system that works. It's a problem that we've had for years now, and which Kante and other teams arrogance allowed to us to briefly solve for 8-9 months last season. You can blame Ranieri for the way he's tried to solve the problem, but the not the problem itself - nor the players that have been signed which havent really added any real alternative options. You can also blame him for losing the team spirit that Pearson had built up, but that was extraordinary, and probably unsustainable with a bigger squad. Basically I don't think there's an easy answer. Changing managers might work in terms of motivation for a bit, but i don't believe there's a magic solution to the balance problem. Just hope that now he'll finally give up on the last remnants of last season's tactics/players and try something completely new, based around the core of newer/young players (Gray, Chilwell, Slimani, Benalouane), because its the only option we have left.

29 years old. Could be classed as newer compared to some but has been at the club since August 2015 and failed to impress

[Bob Weasel Fox]

11 minutes ago, catfordfox said:

Starting to think that the core problem we're seeing this season is ultimately the same one that Pearson was wrestling with for most of the first season in the top flight - namely getting a coherent balance within the first 11. While the players we had in the Championship were too good for that league, once we'd come up, Pearson found it hugely difficult to come with a tactical system which enabled us to be tight at the back and yet still create chances - for a lot of the season it was either one or the other, we'd look better at the back but then stop looking like scoring, or look better in attack and start letting in stupid goals. He chopped and changed tactics loads that season, and never managed to find a way of fitting Mahrez and Vardy in the team, playing to their strengths at all - hence Vardy out wide for a lot of games, and Mahrez in and out of the side (off the top of my head i can't remember how often he tried 4-4-2, but it clearly didnt work if he did). By a stroke of luck Pearson finally managed to discover the 3-5-2, which did at last strike the right balance, and the rest is history. The one thing Pearson did have on his side though was the incredible team spirit he and Shakespeare had built up over the past couple of seasons, better than any team spirit I've seen at any club ever, and that ensured the players kept fighting even when everything was going wrong.

 

Then when Ranieri arrived, he was faced with the same problem - either good going forward and bad at the back (the arsenal 5-2 game), or vice versa. Kante solved that problem - once he was established in the side, he made it possible to play 4-4-2, because he provided enough cover that we didn't need 3 centrebacks, and won the ball back quickly enough that Mahrez consistently got the ball high up the pitch. We were also helped by other teams treating us like relegation fodder, so leaving plenty of space for Vardy to exploit, as long as we shifted the ball to him quickly - the speed with which we were able to move the ball from front to back meant that we could afford to have pretty one dimensional full backs who rarely joined the attack. Once Ranieri had worked that balanced system out, he managed the team masterfully - especially towards the end when teams had worked our tactics out and sat deep. A combination of the aforementioned team spirit and some very smart game management by Ranieri got us through that period.

 

In many ways, this season with the loss of Kante, Ranieri is faced with the same problem as Pearson had two seasons ago - it had become clear by October (probably earlier) that 4-4-2 without Kante wasn't going to work, the midfield was being overrun and there was no cover for the centrebacks. The new signings didn't really add to our options tactically, they were basically attempts at upgrades on what we already had, or an attempt to replace Kante. Ranieri was aware at the end of last season that our title winning tactics weren't going to work as well this season, due to teams figuring it out by the end of last season, so initially wanted a more possession based, passing style. Unfortunately it some became clear that we don't have the players to play that style, and without Kante winning the ball back quickly Mahrez and Vardy no longer get the ball in space, so our main attacking threat is blunted.

 

By October Ranieri realised 4-4-2 wasn't working, so started to change it up to try to find a solution - but like Pearson in 14-15, nothing is working. But unlike Pearson's side, the team spirit is no longer there in the same way (for whatever reason), plus players like Morgan and Huth are a couple of years older now. Ranieri's faced criticism for changing the 'tried and tested' method of 4-4-2 recently, but it hasnt worked properly for nearly half a season now. He had to change it, but because those changes havent worked he's gone back to it for one last try - but same team, same lack of balance, same result - but with added dissent within the squad.

 

The only way we get out of this is by finding a system that works. It's a problem that we've had for years now, and which Kante and other teams arrogance allowed to us to briefly solve for 8-9 months last season. You can blame Ranieri for the way he's tried to solve the problem, but the not the problem itself - nor the players that have been signed which havent really added any real alternative options. You can also blame him for losing the team spirit that Pearson had built up, but that was extraordinary, and probably unsustainable with a bigger squad. Basically I don't think there's an easy answer. Changing managers might work in terms of motivation for a bit, but i don't believe there's a magic solution to the balance problem. Just hope that now he'll finally give up on the last remnants of last season's tactics/players and try something completely new, based around the core of newer/young players (Gray, Chilwell, Slimani, Benalouane), because its the only option we have left.

Superb well thought out post, balanced and not showing undue favouritism towards NP or Ranners

[MattyFromLE]

25 minutes ago, catfordfox said:

Starting to think that the core problem we're seeing this season is ultimately the same one that Pearson was wrestling with for most of the first season in the top flight - namely getting a coherent balance within the first 11. While the players we had in the Championship were too good for that league, once we'd come up, Pearson found it hugely difficult to come with a tactical system which enabled us to be tight at the back and yet still create chances - for a lot of the season it was either one or the other, we'd look better at the back but then stop looking like scoring, or look better in attack and start letting in stupid goals. He chopped and changed tactics loads that season, and never managed to find a way of fitting Mahrez and Vardy in the team, playing to their strengths at all - hence Vardy out wide for a lot of games, and Mahrez in and out of the side (off the top of my head i can't remember how often he tried 4-4-2, but it clearly didnt work if he did). By a stroke of luck Pearson finally managed to discover the 3-5-2, which did at last strike the right balance, and the rest is history. The one thing Pearson did have on his side though was the incredible team spirit he and Shakespeare had built up over the past couple of seasons, better than any team spirit I've seen at any club ever, and that ensured the players kept fighting even when everything was going wrong.

 

Then when Ranieri arrived, he was faced with the same problem - either good going forward and bad at the back (the arsenal 5-2 game), or vice versa. Kante solved that problem - once he was established in the side, he made it possible to play 4-4-2, because he provided enough cover that we didn't need 3 centrebacks, and won the ball back quickly enough that Mahrez consistently got the ball high up the pitch. We were also helped by other teams treating us like relegation fodder, so leaving plenty of space for Vardy to exploit, as long as we shifted the ball to him quickly - the speed with which we were able to move the ball from front to back meant that we could afford to have pretty one dimensional full backs who rarely joined the attack. Once Ranieri had worked that balanced system out, he managed the team masterfully - especially towards the end when teams had worked our tactics out and sat deep. A combination of the aforementioned team spirit and some very smart game management by Ranieri got us through that period.

 

In many ways, this season with the loss of Kante, Ranieri is faced with the same problem as Pearson had two seasons ago - it had become clear by October (probably earlier) that 4-4-2 without Kante wasn't going to work, the midfield was being overrun and there was no cover for the centrebacks. The new signings didn't really add to our options tactically, they were basically attempts at upgrades on what we already had, or an attempt to replace Kante. Ranieri was aware at the end of last season that our title winning tactics weren't going to work as well this season, due to teams figuring it out by the end of last season, so initially wanted a more possession based, passing style. Unfortunately it some became clear that we don't have the players to play that style, and without Kante winning the ball back quickly Mahrez and Vardy no longer get the ball in space, so our main attacking threat is blunted.

 

By October Ranieri realised 4-4-2 wasn't working, so started to change it up to try to find a solution - but like Pearson in 14-15, nothing is working. But unlike Pearson's side, the team spirit is no longer there in the same way (for whatever reason), plus players like Morgan and Huth are a couple of years older now. Ranieri's faced criticism for changing the 'tried and tested' method of 4-4-2 recently, but it hasnt worked properly for nearly half a season now. He had to change it, but because those changes havent worked he's gone back to it for one last try - but same team, same lack of balance, same result - but with added dissent within the squad.

 

The only way we get out of this is by finding a system that works. It's a problem that we've had for years now, and which Kante and other teams arrogance allowed to us to briefly solve for 8-9 months last season. You can blame Ranieri for the way he's tried to solve the problem, but the not the problem itself - nor the players that have been signed which havent really added any real alternative options. You can also blame him for losing the team spirit that Pearson had built up, but that was extraordinary, and probably unsustainable with a bigger squad. Basically I don't think there's an easy answer. Changing managers might work in terms of motivation for a bit, but i don't believe there's a magic solution to the balance problem. Just hope that now he'll finally give up on the last remnants of last season's tactics/players and try something completely new, based around the core of newer/young players (Gray, Chilwell, Slimani, Benalouane), because its the only option we have left.

Brilliant post. 

[catfordfox]

35 minutes ago, Bob Hazels shorts said:

29 years old. Could be classed as newer compared to some but has been at the club since August 2015 and failed to impress

Yes fair point - I guess I meant new in terms of offering different capabilities than the usual first team. That first 11/13 have been tried in virtually every combination going over the years, and I think we've reached the limit of their adaptability. Need new options.

[Ricey]

Good post.

 

The annoying things is that during that flurry of different formations earlier in the year, he never gave one single system enough of a chance to work and he never tried 4-3-3. He seems so determined to play two up front that he will only consider diamonds to add extra men in the middle.

 

I'd have loved to seen how we'd have got on if we had tried to adapt to 4-3-3 earlier in the season and given the players time to adapt.

[Thracian]

10 hours ago, catfordfox said:

Starting to think that the core problem we're seeing this season is ultimately the same one that Pearson was wrestling with for most of the first season in the top flight - namely getting a coherent balance within the first 11. While the players we had in the Championship were too good for that league, once we'd come up, Pearson found it hugely difficult to come with a tactical system which enabled us to be tight at the back and yet still create chances - for a lot of the season it was either one or the other, we'd look better at the back but then stop looking like scoring, or look better in attack and start letting in stupid goals. He chopped and changed tactics loads that season, and never managed to find a way of fitting Mahrez and Vardy in the team, playing to their strengths at all - hence Vardy out wide for a lot of games, and Mahrez in and out of the side (off the top of my head i can't remember how often he tried 4-4-2, but it clearly didnt work if he did). By a stroke of luck Pearson finally managed to discover the 3-5-2, which did at last strike the right balance, and the rest is history. The one thing Pearson did have on his side though was the incredible team spirit he and Shakespeare had built up over the past couple of seasons, better than any team spirit I've seen at any club ever, and that ensured the players kept fighting even when everything was going wrong.

 

Then when Ranieri arrived, he was faced with the same problem - either good going forward and bad at the back (the arsenal 5-2 game), or vice versa. Kante solved that problem - once he was established in the side, he made it possible to play 4-4-2, because he provided enough cover that we didn't need 3 centrebacks, and won the ball back quickly enough that Mahrez consistently got the ball high up the pitch. We were also helped by other teams treating us like relegation fodder, so leaving plenty of space for Vardy to exploit, as long as we shifted the ball to him quickly - the speed with which we were able to move the ball from front to back meant that we could afford to have pretty one dimensional full backs who rarely joined the attack. Once Ranieri had worked that balanced system out, he managed the team masterfully - especially towards the end when teams had worked our tactics out and sat deep. A combination of the aforementioned team spirit and some very smart game management by Ranieri got us through that period.

 

In many ways, this season with the loss of Kante, Ranieri is faced with the same problem as Pearson had two seasons ago - it had become clear by October (probably earlier) that 4-4-2 without Kante wasn't going to work, the midfield was being overrun and there was no cover for the centrebacks. The new signings didn't really add to our options tactically, they were basically attempts at upgrades on what we already had, or an attempt to replace Kante. Ranieri was aware at the end of last season that our title winning tactics weren't going to work as well this season, due to teams figuring it out by the end of last season, so initially wanted a more possession based, passing style. Unfortunately it some became clear that we don't have the players to play that style, and without Kante winning the ball back quickly Mahrez and Vardy no longer get the ball in space, so our main attacking threat is blunted.

 

By October Ranieri realised 4-4-2 wasn't working, so started to change it up to try to find a solution - but like Pearson in 14-15, nothing is working. But unlike Pearson's side, the team spirit is no longer there in the same way (for whatever reason), plus players like Morgan and Huth are a couple of years older now. Ranieri's faced criticism for changing the 'tried and tested' method of 4-4-2 recently, but it hasnt worked properly for nearly half a season now. He had to change it, but because those changes havent worked he's gone back to it for one last try - but same team, same lack of balance, same result - but with added dissent within the squad.

 

The only way we get out of this is by finding a system that works. It's a problem that we've had for years now, and which Kante and other teams arrogance allowed to us to briefly solve for 8-9 months last season. You can blame Ranieri for the way he's tried to solve the problem, but the not the problem itself - nor the players that have been signed which havent really added any real alternative options. You can also blame him for losing the team spirit that Pearson had built up, but that was extraordinary, and probably unsustainable with a bigger squad. Basically I don't think there's an easy answer. Changing managers might work in terms of motivation for a bit, but i don't believe there's a magic solution to the balance problem. Just hope that now he'll finally give up on the last remnants of last season's tactics/players and try something completely new, based around the core of newer/young players (Gray, Chilwell, Slimani, Benalouane), because its the only option we have left.

 

Top marks for the analysis but I'm not convinced by the solution. Or even that they'll stay with us. As you say there's no easy answer especially as Ranieri's so reluctant to return to a 3-5-2 which may at least offer a bit of help in terms of the balance you talk of.

 

Kasper

 

Amartey, Morgan, Chilwell;

 

Mahrez, King, Ndidi, Mendy, Gray;

 

              Vardy, Slimani. 

 

it's not perfect by any means but with King and Ndidi able to supplement the back line for set-pieces, as much passing as we can muster, some pace on the break and at least six  potential scorers in the line-up it surely offers a bit more than we've had up to now and the basis for development.

 

Particularly if Musa can learn to fit in as well. The loss of Huth's height may be a problem and Amartey's not the best right back I've ever seen though he may be as good as anyone else we've got.

 

But, otherwise there's something for the opposition to contend with and that surely means less pressure on the defence. And the team might have a bit of energy and the ability to function as a unit so long as our taller midfielders remain aware.

 

We'd also have the prospect of reasonable delivery from set-pieces and some support for Vardy up front.       

[Guest Bob Hazels shorts]

Still can't believe that we can't pick essentially the same 11 as last year, Ndidi for Kante, get our fingers out and perform not as good as last year but better than we are.

 

Then start to integrate the 8 or so new signings as they acclimatize.

 

Different era and circumstances but its starting to have a Peter Taylor wiff about it.

 

 

 

[Guest Bob Hazels shorts]

1 hour ago, catfordfox said:

Yes fair point - I guess I meant new in terms of offering different capabilities than the usual first team. That first 11/13 have been tried in virtually every combination going over the years, and I think we've reached the limit of their adaptability. Need new options.

Sadly i think Benalouane will be one where we'd wished we'd kept the receipt  

[Alf Bentley]

I'm currently on a self-imposed ban from Foxes Talk but lurk occasionally.

 

I just had to make a brief reappearance to congratulate @catfordfox on the original post in this thread.

 

It's probably the best post on LCFC that I've seen on here for months, if not years. 

It definitely rings true to me as good analysis of the development, strengths and weaknesses of our side this season and over the last couple of years.

 

I wonder if resorting to 3-5-2 again might work, as with Pearson's "Great Escape"? 

We do have the players for that system to work, I think: 

                      Schmeichel; 

Amartey; Huth/Morgan/Wasilewski; Fuchs/Benalouane;

Albrighton; Drinkwater/Mendy/King; Ndidi; Chilwell; 

                         Mahrez

                Slimani    Vardy/Grey

(with the likes of Okazaki, Musa & Ulloa as alternative options)

 

That system could even operate without most or all of the old hands whose form is so bad (Vardy, Huth, Morgan, Simpson, Fuchs, Drinkwater).

 

Whether players' confidence has been too badly damaged is another matter....

 

[Basingstoke Fox]

Great post. The first time we saw how effective this could be was during the 2nd half at West Brom. We were 2-1 down for most of that half but dominated and were playing some great attacking football, partly because we had to just bloody go for it.

 

It may also require some luck once we do find the correct formula (if we do). We were left widely exposed on one occasion to a WBA counter where Berahino should've passed it across for an easy finish. Ultimately he didn't, we went on to win the match, we continued with that formula and the rest is history.

 

I am concerned that even if we do manage to find something that works for us, it'll be too late. It would help if the team didn't just capitulate every time we concede an opening goal. I actually thought we looked reasonably good until Swansea's goal yesterday.

[st albans fox]

its annoying that when he has tried 3 at the back its always been with 4 in the middle rather than the five under NP.  chilwell on the left and albrighton on the right are perfect for that system.  shuffle your middle three and play mahrez with one of slim and vardy up top.  huth and morgan need a ball player with them who can bring the thing out so amartey would do.  you could play simpson and was in the three so no need to play the same three every game.

 

alas, after Chelsea and Copenhagen, we wont see three at the back again.

 

still confused as to why he hasn't tried the everton (a) formation (with ndidi in the side as he may have tried it previously and it wasn't great due to personnel) ?? played 1, won 1. 

[Wdywd]

Yeah a good post.

 

I don't really like the 3 at the back solution because not having any good centre backs is perhaps the biggest problem at the moment, playing more is unlikely to solve it.

 

Imo a combination of complacency and the formation/tactics not working anymore like you say were the reasons for the sloppy start. With the CL games and a very tough run of games early too there's a lot of leeway you can give them for that. Now we just seem to be completely stuck with all the players bereft of any confidence. You can try all sorts of different combinations but if they crumble every time they go behind it's gonna be seriously tough to do anything.

 

To be honest I'd be tempted to go through the side working out who you need to get in and work around that spine. That spine is gonna be completely different to what it was a year ago but that's life. Kasper, Ndidi and Slimani probably are the core, with Gray and Mahrez as the creative players. (I'd be tempted to say Amartey needs to play somewhere as well). Straight away you can play 4-3-3 or some kind of diamond with Gray up front with those players. Which in turn means you can get 3 in midfield and offer us more protection. At least that's a start.

 

But it goes beyond tactics. We need the keeper to be more dominant from set pieces, so much seems to stem from him scrambling about his 6 yard box in a panic while every corner we get is snapped up by the opposition keeper. We need to drop deeper so the complete lack of pace stops getting so exposed. Even little things like just stopping the long throws every time we get a throw on the left side of the pitch would be good. In attacking positions it never creates anything and yesterday we were even throwing ourselves into trouble by lining up for a long throw and chucking it straight to them so we were caught out of position.

 

Last season we were basically a team of midgets who didn't get caught out much in the air, now we have Ndidi, Slimani and Amartey all in there as well and we never seem to win any headers.

[norwichfox]

An excellent post which seems to hit the nail right on the head, can you go and 'ave a word with Claudio now and make him see reason....

[foxes21]

Maybe 3-4-1-2 home and 3-4-3 away.

 

3-4-3 can transition to 5-4-1 and 3-4-1-2 can transition to 3-5-2.

 

edit: also a 5 man defence might be the only way not to concede for fun in the CL.

[foxinsocks]

I know everyone lokes to dud the back four.... ad tgey DO need replacing. ...

But the problem is not conceding a goal against burnley or two against swansea...

It's that we didnt score two or three on these games

Imo this is about the confidence and lack of fear in the relevant players....

Cr must pick those with the confidence

[The Prince]

Excellent post from op. Nice to read comments from people without an agenda (Ranieri in, Ranieri out, Pearson back, King is our best midfielder). 

 

Balance in the side as well as a balanced squad are critical however I believe it is now deeper issue, The teams mental approach. It starts with the back four who at their best are front foot defenders, attacking the ball rather than being indecisive. Sinclair is a perfect example. So good at times last season and even some games this season. He looks completely unsure wether to stick or twist. The free kick that led to the first goal on Sunday was down to Huth's hesitancy. If he had committed to that challenge early, he would have won the ball comfortably. 

 

The team as a whole start on the back foot. It's a case of starting slowly and with a solid shape, hoping to grow in to the game and eventually taking control. Inevitably, we concede and are chasing the game. This is were I assume Ranieri is a problem (although we can't be sure). 

 

I genuinely believe we have a good team who with the right approach can get us out of this mess. Imagine going in to the game with one intention, to score the first goal. We simply never take the lead. Remember the great escape? In the last nine games, we must have been 2-0 up in twenty minutes in four or five of them. We started games with such intensity. 

 

Team selection, formation all have a part to play but I cannot help think our approach needs to change. Time to twist Claudio!

[foxinsocks]

Is this a rehabilation post for np?

[Thracian]

I know this ...there seems to be more thought and tryable ideas coming from folk on here than seems to be coming from the City camp.

 

None are being hailed as solutions. But surely it's best to at least try a different approach rather than stick with things that have catagorically failed and for reasons that have been well explained by so many people. .

 

And what better really than to return to something that did work - even before Kante came on the scene.

 

Okay we've also lost the raw pace of Schlupp who was far more valuable when properly motivated than so many on here give him credit for.

 

Grays got more skill but less pace or strength,

Musa's got pace but no strength. But surely we can adapt our style to make something of those strengths rather than writing the idea of 3-5-2 off.   

 

Seems to me that playing one up front invites pressure with our current team and 3-5-2 might force our opponents to look to their own defence. In other words the best form of defence for us now is to attack.

 

I might be wrong but I don't hear anyone shouting to continue as we are doing.       

[smudgerfox]

Yes agree with every word of the original post...

 

The summer transfer window is the killer. No reinforcement in central midfield or defence (unless you count Hernandez, which would be very unwise) - was a disaster, the scale of which was immediately revealed when Mendy got injured. Zieler is an inadequate replacement for Schmeichel and we ended up with a squad full of wingers and only two Premier class strikers. When January came around we seemed to be chasing yet more wingers instead of improving our spine. And while we were trekking the continent trying to sign players who European giants were after, Brady went to Burnley, Snodgrass to West Ham - both players with dead ball quality and Premier experience. Olsson went to Swansea. These type of canny signings got us to where we are but they have completely dried up since CR took over.   

[midland_red]

8 hours ago, catfordfox said:

Starting to think that the core problem we're seeing this season is ultimately the same one that Pearson was wrestling with for most of the first season in the top flight - namely getting a coherent balance within the first 11. While the players we had in the Championship were too good for that league, once we'd come up, Pearson found it hugely difficult to come with a tactical system which enabled us to be tight at the back and yet still create chances - for a lot of the season it was either one or the other, we'd look better at the back but then stop looking like scoring, or look better in attack and start letting in stupid goals. He chopped and changed tactics loads that season, and never managed to find a way of fitting Mahrez and Vardy in the team, playing to their strengths at all - hence Vardy out wide for a lot of games, and Mahrez in and out of the side (off the top of my head i can't remember how often he tried 4-4-2, but it clearly didnt work if he did). By a stroke of luck Pearson finally managed to discover the 3-5-2, which did at last strike the right balance, and the rest is history. The one thing Pearson did have on his side though was the incredible team spirit he and Shakespeare had built up over the past couple of seasons, better than any team spirit I've seen at any club ever, and that ensured the players kept fighting even when everything was going wrong.

 

Then when Ranieri arrived, he was faced with the same problem - either good going forward and bad at the back (the arsenal 5-2 game), or vice versa. Kante solved that problem - once he was established in the side, he made it possible to play 4-4-2, because he provided enough cover that we didn't need 3 centrebacks, and won the ball back quickly enough that Mahrez consistently got the ball high up the pitch. We were also helped by other teams treating us like relegation fodder, so leaving plenty of space for Vardy to exploit, as long as we shifted the ball to him quickly - the speed with which we were able to move the ball from front to back meant that we could afford to have pretty one dimensional full backs who rarely joined the attack. Once Ranieri had worked that balanced system out, he managed the team masterfully - especially towards the end when teams had worked our tactics out and sat deep. A combination of the aforementioned team spirit and some very smart game management by Ranieri got us through that period.

 

In many ways, this season with the loss of Kante, Ranieri is faced with the same problem as Pearson had two seasons ago - it had become clear by October (probably earlier) that 4-4-2 without Kante wasn't going to work, the midfield was being overrun and there was no cover for the centrebacks. The new signings didn't really add to our options tactically, they were basically attempts at upgrades on what we already had, or an attempt to replace Kante. Ranieri was aware at the end of last season that our title winning tactics weren't going to work as well this season, due to teams figuring it out by the end of last season, so initially wanted a more possession based, passing style. Unfortunately it some became clear that we don't have the players to play that style, and without Kante winning the ball back quickly Mahrez and Vardy no longer get the ball in space, so our main attacking threat is blunted.

 

By October Ranieri realised 4-4-2 wasn't working, so started to change it up to try to find a solution - but like Pearson in 14-15, nothing is working. But unlike Pearson's side, the team spirit is no longer there in the same way (for whatever reason), plus players like Morgan and Huth are a couple of years older now. Ranieri's faced criticism for changing the 'tried and tested' method of 4-4-2 recently, but it hasnt worked properly for nearly half a season now. He had to change it, but because those changes havent worked he's gone back to it for one last try - but same team, same lack of balance, same result - but with added dissent within the squad.

 

The only way we get out of this is by finding a system that works. It's a problem that we've had for years now, and which Kante and other teams arrogance allowed to us to briefly solve for 8-9 months last season. You can blame Ranieri for the way he's tried to solve the problem, but the not the problem itself - nor the players that have been signed which havent really added any real alternative options. You can also blame him for losing the team spirit that Pearson had built up, but that was extraordinary, and probably unsustainable with a bigger squad. Basically I don't think there's an easy answer. Changing managers might work in terms of motivation for a bit, but i don't believe there's a magic solution to the balance problem. Just hope that now he'll finally give up on the last remnants of last season's tactics/players and try something completely new, based around the core of newer/young players (Gray, Chilwell, Slimani, Benalouane), because its the only option we have left.

I thought that was s most thoughtful and balanced post

[spacemunky]

I thought this was going to be about Shinji.

[dynamark]

No Shinji is not balanced ay all in fact he falls down a lot

[funkyrobot]

10 hours ago, catfordfox said:

Starting to think that the core problem we're seeing this season is ultimately the same one that Pearson was wrestling with for most of the first season in the top flight - namely getting a coherent balance within the first 11. While the players we had in the Championship were too good for that league, once we'd come up, Pearson found it hugely difficult to come with a tactical system which enabled us to be tight at the back and yet still create chances - for a lot of the season it was either one or the other, we'd look better at the back but then stop looking like scoring, or look better in attack and start letting in stupid goals. He chopped and changed tactics loads that season, and never managed to find a way of fitting Mahrez and Vardy in the team, playing to their strengths at all - hence Vardy out wide for a lot of games, and Mahrez in and out of the side (off the top of my head i can't remember how often he tried 4-4-2, but it clearly didnt work if he did). By a stroke of luck Pearson finally managed to discover the 3-5-2, which did at last strike the right balance, and the rest is history. The one thing Pearson did have on his side though was the incredible team spirit he and Shakespeare had built up over the past couple of seasons, better than any team spirit I've seen at any club ever, and that ensured the players kept fighting even when everything was going wrong.

 

Then when Ranieri arrived, he was faced with the same problem - either good going forward and bad at the back (the arsenal 5-2 game), or vice versa. Kante solved that problem - once he was established in the side, he made it possible to play 4-4-2, because he provided enough cover that we didn't need 3 centrebacks, and won the ball back quickly enough that Mahrez consistently got the ball high up the pitch. We were also helped by other teams treating us like relegation fodder, so leaving plenty of space for Vardy to exploit, as long as we shifted the ball to him quickly - the speed with which we were able to move the ball from front to back meant that we could afford to have pretty one dimensional full backs who rarely joined the attack. Once Ranieri had worked that balanced system out, he managed the team masterfully - especially towards the end when teams had worked our tactics out and sat deep. A combination of the aforementioned team spirit and some very smart game management by Ranieri got us through that period.

 

In many ways, this season with the loss of Kante, Ranieri is faced with the same problem as Pearson had two seasons ago - it had become clear by October (probably earlier) that 4-4-2 without Kante wasn't going to work, the midfield was being overrun and there was no cover for the centrebacks. The new signings didn't really add to our options tactically, they were basically attempts at upgrades on what we already had, or an attempt to replace Kante. Ranieri was aware at the end of last season that our title winning tactics weren't going to work as well this season, due to teams figuring it out by the end of last season, so initially wanted a more possession based, passing style. Unfortunately it some became clear that we don't have the players to play that style, and without Kante winning the ball back quickly Mahrez and Vardy no longer get the ball in space, so our main attacking threat is blunted.

 

By October Ranieri realised 4-4-2 wasn't working, so started to change it up to try to find a solution - but like Pearson in 14-15, nothing is working. But unlike Pearson's side, the team spirit is no longer there in the same way (for whatever reason), plus players like Morgan and Huth are a couple of years older now. Ranieri's faced criticism for changing the 'tried and tested' method of 4-4-2 recently, but it hasnt worked properly for nearly half a season now. He had to change it, but because those changes havent worked he's gone back to it for one last try - but same team, same lack of balance, same result - but with added dissent within the squad.

 

The only way we get out of this is by finding a system that works. It's a problem that we've had for years now, and which Kante and other teams arrogance allowed to us to briefly solve for 8-9 months last season. You can blame Ranieri for the way he's tried to solve the problem, but the not the problem itself - nor the players that have been signed which havent really added any real alternative options. You can also blame him for losing the team spirit that Pearson had built up, but that was extraordinary, and probably unsustainable with a bigger squad. Basically I don't think there's an easy answer. Changing managers might work in terms of motivation for a bit, but i don't believe there's a magic solution to the balance problem. Just hope that now he'll finally give up on the last remnants of last season's tactics/players and try something completely new, based around the core of newer/young players (Gray, Chilwell, Slimani, Benalouane), because its the only option we have left.

As well as team spirit, Pearson had a leader on the pitch. Cambiasso. He was absolutely vital to us staying up that year. Kante was the unbelievable footballer that negated the need for a 'leader' last season. This year we've not got anything like those pair so I can't see how we can change it. Ranieri's fault (or the people that make the signings if he has no input) has been to buy players that don't have that in them. 

[Kaewbudda]

7 hours ago, Basingstoke Fox said:

Great post. The first time we saw how effective this could be was during the 2nd half at West Brom. We were 2-1 down for most of that half but dominated and were playing some great attacking football, partly because we had to just bloody go for it.

 

It may also require some luck once we do find the correct formula (if we do). We were left widely exposed on one occasion to a WBA counter where Berahino should've passed it across for an easy finish. Ultimately he didn't, we went on to win the match, we continued with that formula and the rest is history.

 

I am concerned that even if we do manage to find something that works for us, it'll be too late. It would help if the team didn't just capitulate every time we concede an opening goal. I actually thought we looked reasonably good until Swansea's goal yesterday.

Spot on. What we've tried so far isn't working. We're virtually back to where we were two years ago. Just have to go for it now!