President Trump & the USA

[breadandcheese]

It does sound like the net is closing.  I have always maintained my faith in the checks and balances in the American system.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

It does sound like the net is closing.  I have always maintained my faith in the checks and balances in the American system.

You know, with the House and Senate and Presidency all Repub-controlled and the new Supreme Court judges coming in, I honestly wasn't sure that they'd hold.

I'm still not totally certain now - not until things are done - but I do have a little more faith.

[breadandcheese]

29 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

You know, with the House and Senate and Presidency all Repub-controlled and the new Supreme Court judges coming in, I honestly wasn't sure that they'd hold.

I'm still not totally certain now - not until things are done - but I do have a little more faith.

I agree.  My faith has wobbled for those reasons but I still believe that the American system will hold and protect.

Edited 21 August 2018 by breadandcheese

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45265546

Wonder if he has flipped?

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

I'm sorry to say that he won't get kicked out of office, The impeachment process, is loaded in his favour.

[Jattdogg]

15 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

I'm sorry to say that he won't get kicked out of office, The impeachment process, is loaded in his favour.

Unless they find some crazy shite i cant ever see him getting impeached. Republicans wont allow it to happen.

The only thing is all this stuff could hurt his re-election campaign....but im not so sure. Dems have no star candidate yet and if they dont prove collusion it will only make trump look better with his base and that it truly was a 'witch hunt'. 

Interesting to see how things unfold over the next while but he isnt going anywhere anytime soon. Silence from republicans is deafening.

[Guest MattP]

Is it actually illegal to pay hush money? 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Is it actually illegal to pay hush money? 

When it violates campaign finance laws (as I'm assuming it does but I'm not sure exactly how) then yes, which is why Cohen is seemingly about to become the biggest nightingale in American politics since Watergate.

This might, just might, actually be the key witness that Muellers investigation needs to do something concrete.

[Detroit Blues]

44 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

I'm sorry to say that he won't get kicked out of office, The impeachment process, is loaded in his favour.

I have been watching the Ken Burns documentary series about the Vietnam War, and just thinking about how Richard Nixon's impeachment compares to now.

The biggest difference between back then and now is how we consume media. Back then the news was the news. It wasn't a full blown propaganda machine pushing a specific agenda, and the populace was informed by somewhat fair and balanced journalism about what was going on in the world. Now, in today's curated "news" system, we all just read and watch whatever confirms our pre-existing beliefs.

Conservatives' inherit distrust has been exploited by Fox News, and spread to the rest of the media. The only news  they can trust is on Fox. You might not know that Fox News has bought up local news stations around the country as well, so even the local news is being dictated by Rupert Murdoch's political agenda. With the Republicans in power, it is reminiscent of state media. 

Instead of being informed about how their President conspired with a foreign power to win an election, and has committed numerous financial crimes, Trump supporters eat up conspiracy theories about the "deep state." They actually believe that somehow, the entire world is out to stop the conservative agenda. The "liberal" media, the criminal justice system, our intelligence community, democrats, and illegal immigrants have all conspired to destroy America. 

Republicans in congress have been put in a precarious position. They know it's wrong to support a President who should be impeached, but they know that their supporters have no loyalty to them. Their supporters are only loyal to Trump. By moving to impeach the President,their supporters would abandon them. But by not impeaching the President, they also will look complicit in his crimes. 

If the Democrats win enough congressional seats back in the mid term elections, they can pass articles of impeachment, but they will still need Republican congressional support to convict Trump and remove him from office. When Nixon was Impeached, he at least had the honor within him to resign rather than to hurt his country by staying in office. Trump, however, is so stubborn and ignorant he would rather go down fighting. 

I worry for the future of my country. How can democracy work when a large portion of the populace is devoid of reality? We can't have any rational political discourse if we can't agree on basic fundamental truths. American democracy has devolved into a tribal system where the minority group rules the majority based on collusion and deceit. In a country of over 320 million people, 62 million have dictated who our president will be due how our electoral college system was created back in the late 1700's. Republicans are also over-represented in state government, and congress based on how they have gerrymandered voting districts. Soon they will also control a majority of the Supreme Court and will be able to roll back things like abortion rights and gay marriage.

One of the most powerful countries in the world is being controlled by a small population of the country, and they are acting based on the news brought to them by Rupert Murdoch. 

Edited 22 August 2018 by Detroit Blues

[Guest MattP]

45 minutes ago, Detroit Blues said:

I have been watching the Ken Burns documentary series about the Vietnam War, and just thinking about how Richard Nixon's impeachment compares to now.

The biggest difference between back then and now is how we consume media. Back then the news was the news. It wasn't a full blown propaganda machine pushing a specific agenda, and the populace was informed by somewhat fair and balanced journalism about what was going on in the world. Now, in today's curated "news" system, we all just read and watch whatever confirms our pre-existing beliefs.

Conservatives' inherit distrust has been exploited by Fox News, and spread to the rest of the media. The only news  they can trust is on Fox. You might not know that Fox News has bought up local news stations around the country as well, so even the local news is being dictated by Rupert Murdoch's political agenda. With the Republicans in power, it is reminiscent of state media. 

Instead of being informed about how their President conspired with a foreign power to win an election, and has committed numerous financial crimes, Trump supporters eat up conspiracy theories about the "deep state." They actually believe that somehow, the entire world is out to stop the conservative agenda. The "liberal" media, the criminal justice system, our intelligence community, democrats, and illegal immigrants have all conspired to destroy America. 

Republicans in congress have been put in a precarious position. They know it's wrong to support a President who should be impeached, but they know that their supporters have no loyalty to them. Their supporters are only loyal to Trump. By moving to impeach the President,their supporters would abandon them. But by not impeaching the President, they also will look complicit in his crimes. 

If the Democrats win enough congressional seats back in the mid term elections, they can pass articles of impeachment, but they will still need Republican congressional support to convict Trump and remove him from office. When Nixon was Impeached, he at least had the honor within him to resign rather than to hurt his country by staying in office. Trump, however, is so stubborn and ignorant he would rather go down fighting. 

I worry for the future of my country. How can democracy work when a large portion of the populace is devoid of reality? We can't have any rational political discourse if we can't agree on basic fundamental truths. American democracy has devolved into a tribal system where the minority group rules the majority based on collusion and deceit. In a country of over 320 million people, 62 million have dictated who our president will be due how our electoral college system was created back in the late 1700's. Republicans are also over-represented in state government, and congress based on how they have gerrymandered voting districts. Soon they will also control a majority of the Supreme Court and will be able to roll back things like abortion rights and gay marriage.

One of the most powerful countries in the world is being controlled by a small population of the country, and they are acting based on the news brought to them by Rupert Murdoch. 

Bolded the bits that leapt out at me.

First off, what a series that is, one of the best documentary series ever made, recommended to anyone.

The second part is now my biggest fear as well, we are starting to see the same thing here, we have an opposition who will probably win the next election with a support base very similar to the hardcore of the Donald Trump support base, deep state, conspiracy theories abouts bankers, Jews  and a complete refusal to acknowledge anything bad about the leader whatever proof is thrown up etc etc, a lot of people are refusing to read newspapers that don't agree with them and instad believe anything they read on social media, even when it's clear to any sane person it's complete garbage and if any normal publication went with it they would be in court.

Serious regulation of Twitter and Facebook has to come along quick enough and they need to be held to account if they are being used to spread outright lies in the same way the BBC, The Sun, The Guardian or the Mail would be if they did.

I fear for the future as well, impeachment and removal of a President is never a good thing, a lot of Democrats and their supporters have never respected the result that was delivered in 2016 and have been hoping and searching for this since day one, but all that will really do in the end is create more division, you'll now have a large group of people who think the establishment is completely against them and the system is even more crooked than it was when they when they went out and voted for him in the first police, I can see politics turning very. very nasty.

I will solve the problem of Trump as Preseident, but it isn't going to solve the problem of what made Trump the President.

[Finnegan]

I think the insinuation that that problem is uniquely Labour / Corbyn supporters is a bit silly, Matt. 

There are brainwashed morons on all sides of the political spectrum just blindly voting for populist rhetoric being rammed down their throats with no interest in stopping to question what they're reading and hearing, regardless of what they believe. 

If there weren't, we wouldn't be leaving the EU. 

[leicsmac]

15 minutes ago, MattP said:

Bolded the bits that leapt out at me.

First off, what a series that is, one of the best documentary series ever made, recommended to anyone.

The second part is now my biggest fear as well, we are starting to see the same thing here, we have an opposition who will probably win the next election with a support base very similar to the hardcore of the Donald Trump support base, deep state, conspiracy theories abouts bankers, Jews  and a complete refusal to acknowledge anything bad about the leader whatever proof is thrown up etc etc, a lot of people are refusing to read newspapers that don't agree with them and instad believe anything they read on social media, even when it's clear to any sane person it's complete garbage and if any normal publication went with it they would be in court.

Serious regulation of Twitter and Facebook has to come along quick enough and they need to be held to account if they are being used to spread outright lies in the same way the BBC, The Sun, The Guardian or the Mail would be if they did.

I fear for the future as well, impeachment and removal of a President is never a good thing, a lot of Democrats and their supporters have never respected the result that was delivered in 2016 and have been hoping and searching for this since day one, but all that will really do in the end is create more division, you'll now have a large group of people who think the establishment is completely against them and the system is even more crooked than it was when they when they went out and voted for him in the first police, I can see politics turning very. very nasty.

I will solve the problem of Trump as Preseident, but it isn't going to solve the problem of what made Trump the President.

4

I think you're probably right on the bolded part here, but that doesn't take away from the POV that it needs to happen for various reasons, the biggest being that Trump staying where he is in spite of all of this could well cause more division than removing him ever could.

Honestly, I don't have a solution to answer the problem you talk about in the final line - how do you convince a person so zealously convinced that the establishment is corrupt, that Trump isn't part of that same establishment, and (in some cases, and like it or not there is a lot of crossover with Trump supporters here) that systemic inequality exists, that other people aren't "lesser" and equal rights for all is a good thing, and the Earth isn't 6000 years old; all when the person will not listen and dismiss any argument no matter how well structured?

Sometimes, there is simply no way to get through.

[Fox Ulike]

41 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

I think the insinuation that that problem is uniquely Labour / Corbyn supporters is a bit silly, Matt. 

There are brainwashed morons on all sides of the political spectrum just blindly voting for populist rhetoric being rammed down their throats with no interest in stopping to question what they're reading and hearing, regardless of what they believe. 

If there weren't, we wouldn't be leaving the EU. 

You’re right but you have to take Matt’s posts with a large pinch of right-wing propogandist Salt!

Corbyn has clearly taken a page out of the Trump playbook, and there are definitely emerging similarities between the Trump and Corbyn support bases. In both cases, it is largely opposition media which has created the environment that has allowed both men to develop a groundswell of fiercely loyal supporters.  The reason for this is simple. No-one likes being told what to think.

[Finnegan]

1 minute ago, Fox Ulike said:

You’re right but you have to take Matt’s posts with a large pinch of right-wing propogandist Salt!

Corbyn has clearly taken a page out of the Trump playbook, and there are definitely emerging similarities between the Trump and Corbyn support bases. In both cases, it is largely opposition media which has created the environment that has allowed both men to develop a groundswell of fiercely loyal supporters.  The reason for this is simple. No-one likes being told what to think.

 

 

Yeah but Matt knows I'm an insufferable lefty twat just as much as he's a closet alt right willy puller. 

[urban.spaceman]

1 hour ago, Detroit Blues said:

I have been watching the Ken Burns documentary series about the Vietnam War, and just thinking about how Richard Nixon's impeachment compares to now.

The biggest difference between back then and now is how we consume media. Back then the news was the news. It wasn't a full blown propaganda machine pushing a specific agenda, and the populace was informed by somewhat fair and balanced journalism about what was going on in the world. Now, in today's curated "news" system, we all just read and watch whatever confirms our pre-existing beliefs.

Conservatives' inherit distrust has been exploited by Fox News, and spread to the rest of the media. The only news  they can trust is on Fox. You might not know that Fox News has bought up local news stations around the country as well, so even the local news is being dictated by Rupert Murdoch's political agenda. With the Republicans in power, it is reminiscent of state media. 

Instead of being informed about how their President conspired with a foreign power to win an election, and has committed numerous financial crimes, Trump supporters eat up conspiracy theories about the "deep state." They actually believe that somehow, the entire world is out to stop the conservative agenda. The "liberal" media, the criminal justice system, our intelligence community, democrats, and illegal immigrants have all conspired to destroy America. 

Republicans in congress have been put in a precarious position. They know it's wrong to support a President who should be impeached, but they know that their supporters have no loyalty to them. Their supporters are only loyal to Trump. By moving to impeach the President,their supporters would abandon them. But by not impeaching the President, they also will look complicit in his crimes. 

If the Democrats win enough congressional seats back in the mid term elections, they can pass articles of impeachment, but they will still need Republican congressional support to convict Trump and remove him from office. When Nixon was Impeached, he at least had the honor within him to resign rather than to hurt his country by staying in office. Trump, however, is so stubborn and ignorant he would rather go down fighting. 

I worry for the future of my country. How can democracy work when a large portion of the populace is devoid of reality? We can't have any rational political discourse if we can't agree on basic fundamental truths. American democracy has devolved into a tribal system where the minority group rules the majority based on collusion and deceit. In a country of over 320 million people, 62 million have dictated who our president will be due how our electoral college system was created back in the late 1700's. Republicans are also over-represented in state government, and congress based on how they have gerrymandered voting districts. Soon they will also control a majority of the Supreme Court and will be able to roll back things like abortion rights and gay marriage.

 One of the most powerful countries in the world is being controlled by a small population of the country, and they are acting based on the news brought to them by Rupert Murdoch. 

11

Such a sad state of affairs. The saddest thing is that it's actually been like this for decades; a loooong decline that started noticeably for me at least when Obama got elected but the Republicans still held Congress. Practically everything he was trying to implement was fought against and voted down. I think there was something to do with the deficit/fiscal cliff thing where they had made 100 pages of amendments submitted to Congress, and the Republicans rejected it within minutes (memory's a bit sketchy). To me it highlighted the pure divide between the Republicans and the Democrats, which has been profoundly amplified by the arrival of Trump.

Education and the news media have failed the American people. It's created a situation where the extreme right and extreme left loathe each other and take this to ludicrous extremes. Everyone's just shouting at each other now; if you don't agree with someone they're either fake news or a fascist bigot. We all laugh at Fox News because they're so obviously crazy. But Trump also has a point about CNN. "News" should be about the ****ing news, not "the news with a left or right spin on it". And it shouldn't be run by a commercial corporation that relies on profit from advertisers to make billions. 

I fear that post-Trump - whatever happens to him - nothing will change and America will continue to swing from red to blue and back again with these same problems just getting worse and worse. 

[Guest MattP]

57 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

I think the insinuation that that problem is uniquely Labour / Corbyn supporters is a bit silly, Matt. 

There are brainwashed morons on all sides of the political spectrum just blindly voting for populist rhetoric being rammed down their throats with no interest in stopping to question what they're reading and hearing, regardless of what they believe. 

If there weren't, we wouldn't be leaving the EU. 

They were the two most obvious examples as this current point in time.

I actually agree with you on the last line, you need populism to win votes in this day and age and I think emain would have won without our side trying to reach the non-voter, it's what you have to do when the establishment is against you like it was with Trump and is with Corbyn, there is some truth in that.

The Bad Boys of Brexit is a good read and goes into depth of the campaign to reach parts of the electorate mainstream politicians or media can't. I'd recommend a read for anyone interested in politics.

42 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I think you're probably right on the bolded part here, but that doesn't take away from the POV that it needs to happen for various reasons, the biggest being that Trump staying where he is in spite of all of this could well cause more division than removing him ever could.

Honestly, I don't have a solution to answer the problem you talk about in the final line - how do you convince a person so zealously convinced that the establishment is corrupt, that Trump isn't part of that same establishment, and (in some cases, and like it or not there is a lot of crossover with Trump supporters here) that systemic inequality exists, that other people aren't "lesser" and equal rights for all is a good thing, and the Earth isn't 6000 years old; all when the person will not listen and dismiss any argument no matter how well structured?

Sometimes, there is simply no way to get through.

Well for a start you don't react to the election by immediately searching for ways to stop it happening, attacking his voters as stupid and have the press all immediately jumping on him en masse (I think the NYT ran an editorial calling it a disaster the morning after), a better play would have been welcome Mr President, now you'll get a fair chance, if it goes well great, if it doesn't we'll show everyone how utterly incompetent you are, basically do what the respectable media is supposed to do.

Instead they went for million women marches with vaginas on their head and Madonna on stage shouting "impeach him and blow up the Whitehouse" the weekend after he was elected, so whatever happened it was never going to be in any doubt vast swathes of his opposition never respected his election and were going to try and do anything to remove him right from the off.

So after that, how you convince hi supporters the establishment didn't have it in for him from the start I honestly don't know.

Edited 22 August 2018 by MattP

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Well for a start you don't react to the election by immediately searching for ways to stop it happening, attacking his voters as stupid and have the press all immediately jumping on him en masse (I think the NYT ran an editorial calling it a disaster the morning after), a better play would have been welcome Mr President, now you'll get a fair chance, if it goes well great, if it doesn't we'll show everyone how utterly incompetent you are, basically do what the respectable media is supposed to do.

Instead they went for million women marches with vaginas on their head and Madonna on stage shouting "impeach him and blow up the Whitehouse" the weekend after he was elected, so whatever happened it was never going to be in any doubt vast swathes of his opposition never respected his election and were going to try and do anything to remove him right from the off.

So after that, how you convince hi supporters the establishment didn't have it in for him from the start I honestly don't know.

2

I'd agree that the lines were drawn pretty much from the moment he won - if not before - and that isn't a good thing. (Mind you, I'd say the same about the election of Obama.)

The divisions are incredibly deep, often based on race and belief and healing those is going to be damned difficult.

[the fox]

Trump Is a racist buffoon but atleast he doesn't hide it. His shamlessnes knows no bounds. It's truly quite a sight to behold. 

 

 

There is an old Chinese idiom for Trump , " dead pig is not afraid of hot water". The man has no business being a president but he actually managed to pull it off. He says the most outrageous, offensive things but his face seems to be made of sandpaper.

As for people who think he will be kicked out of the White house. Lol. Wake up and smell the coffee, folks, you ain't kidding no one. 

He has a bigger chance of being re-elected than being kicked out. 

 

Edited 22 August 2018 by the fox

[Max Wall]

10 hours ago, Detroit Blues said:

I have been watching the Ken Burns documentary series about the Vietnam War, and just thinking about how Richard Nixon's impeachment compares to now.

So that's what the fat bastard did after he left Forest.

 

[Simi]

18 hours ago, MattP said:

I will solve the problem of Trump as Preseident, 

Thanks Matt, very kind of you.

[Claridge]

Grubby old whore tries to blackmail a man and to protect his career/marriage he pays her hush money..That's a crime?

Whether his wife should forgive him,thta's upto her

[Finnegan]

13 minutes ago, Claridge said:

Grubby old whore tries to blackmail a man and to protect his career/marriage he pays her hush money..That's a crime?

Whether his wife should forgive him,thta's upto her

 

[Jattdogg]

28 minutes ago, Claridge said:

Grubby old whore tries to blackmail a man and to protect his career/marriage he pays her hush money..That's a crime?

Whether his wife should forgive him,thta's upto her

Given he represents Republican/conservative values is that someone you want your family or kids to look up to? (Dont laugh, we all know they voted for him to represent them before the election which is a head scratcher)...Well apparently republicans have short term memory loss on values as they control the usa right now. Thats not to say Democrats  dont act the same way. They are all hypocrites if you ask me. Politicians are in it for themselves/parties they dont really give a toss about little timmy or jose (unless he is undocumented).

But is the payment an impeachable offense?  If you can prove that it violated campaign finance law and subsequently an outcome of an election then it has to be dealt with accordingly.  Whether that means impeachment or a slap on the wrist who knows (i dont pretend to understand US election rules and laws).

 

To me, it just seems like he was trying to hide a shameful sin (allegedly) from his past and like anyone with money/power/ sway they would  pay people hush money. To me, that's not a 'crime'.  Thats between you, the people you are paying and your family. I dont make the laws (and probably for good reason). Heck bill clinton jizzed in the oval office on monicas outfit (and she kept it the dirty sod),  lied about it live on tv and still remained in the job.  Trump is not going anywhere over this whether you like it or not.

Having said the above the guy clearly is not fit to lead a burger joint let alone the USA.

 

I do love how when a girl/woman is raped/killed by an undocumented illegal he is quick is talk about immigration policy on tv/twitter or whatever. You know because now is the time and it sure is. Yet when  a school massacre happens and it is time to talk about gun control the republicans look the other way and say "now is not the time".

Agendas. 

 

Edited 23 August 2018 by Jattdogg

[Fox Ulike]

31 minutes ago, Claridge said:

Grubby old whore tries to blackmail a man and to protect his career/marriage he pays her hush money..That's a crime?

Whether his wife should forgive him,thta's upto her

No that's not a crime. Not reporting the hush money payment to the Federal Election Commission is a crime apparently.

I doubt though that it's worthy of an impeachment.

[Guest MattP]

(Serious whataboutism alert)

The coverage on Trump may prove to be correct and he may well leave office because of it, but I did wonder earlier, how on earth did Bill Clnton get away with what he did, I mean he literally got a young naive 22 year old intern to suck his dick in the Whitehouse, whilst married, then totally lied about it, and somehow came out of the impeachment process with an acquittal.

Can't help but think if he has been a Republican he would have been removed.