President Trump & the USA

[Buce]

1 hour ago, MC Prussian said:

First of all, I'm not a Conservative. But it's telling that you come to that conclusion. It shows how limited your own political horizon is.

Or do you label everything to your right "Conservative"?

You can't simply apply US standards 1-to-1 to European politics.

 

From a European point of view, the Democrats aren't a truly liberal or even left-wing party. They are to the left of the Republicans, but still on the right when using European metrics. There is no true leftist party in the US. There were attempts with the Green Party that have failed miserably. Some are trying right now (with the controversial Social Democrats within the Democratic party), but the establishment is too strong still and it will remain a fringe movement.

The Democrats may be more "liberal" or more "diverse" than the Republicans, but that's about it.

 

"Making waves" isn't "politically savvy" in my eyes, because it's but a drop in the ocean. It depends on how big those waves really are in the end and what water they are made on - the US media tend to overblow AOC's impact and use her as a poster girl, creating a certain image. What she does - or rather, what her committee does for her - is all about immediate attention and little long-term solutions.

Her proposals are ludicrous and some of the things she's said in the past are simply stupid and ignorant. Opening the border, abandoning ICE, preventing Amazon from opening a new headquarter in NY - when NY is massively in debt, ... She's clueless. What she does or is made to do is mostly show, no substance.

 

As for the team behind AOC, here's the video I posted a while back:

 

In the end and despite losing the popular vote, Trump got elected because too many people were fed up with the Clintons and the Democrats.

 

You still seem to be butt-hurt over Trump winning. Hey, I don't like the guy, either. But I don't have to like him in order to see what he's achieved so far in terms of economic progress and having been able to avoid starting a new, useless war abroad. I like how one man alone can rile up an entire party by posting on Twitter. He's an agent provocateur in many ways, and he's loving it.

 

Talk is cheap, actions speak louder. The current Iran situation is less than ideal, but so far, he's handled himself really well. Record low unemployment for African Americans and Hispanics, more home-grown jobs, overall crime rates dwindling still, (almost) fully self-sufficient in energy independence.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4273264-happy-fourth-u-s-energy-independence-way

What's not to like about living in the US right now?

Why do you think so many immigrants from Middle and South America make the trek up North right now? Even more and more Africans are now traveling to the US for immigration.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/06/04/african-migrants-border-trump-immigration-nuevo-laredo-congo/1319996001/

 

Obviously, health insurance is still a hot topic. But some of the Democrats I heard during the debate want to charge you even more in that department.

And the drug (opioid) crisis, plus homelessness should be tackled immediately. San Francisco, LA have turned into tent cities.

 

If the Trump Administration could now also focus on improving infrastructure (roads, train tracks, bridges, aso), public transportation (buses, trains) and education, we could be onto a winner.

 

As far as you mocking the links I've provided, they were but some of the first ones I found, so absolutely random and by no means indicative of where I stand politically.

 

This one a little bit credible for you?

https://news.yahoo.com/fed-constituent-announces-shes-running-235651134.html

Listen to the candidate trying to replace AOC.

 

 

 

You're telling an American you know better than him about his own country?

 

That's astonishingly arrogant, even by your standards.

[MC Prussian]

46 minutes ago, Buce said:

You're telling an American you know better than him about his own country?

 

That's astonishingly arrogant, even by your standards.

Why doesn't it surprise me that you're once again going for the person instead of the message?

Not an ounce of interest in debating the subject, you become personal straightaway. This is silly.

 

I follow American politics closely or have been doing so for a while now.

 

Naturally, I can't speak for the living conditions in the US in general terms, as I do lack the first-hand experience. Obviously.

I do have spent some time in the US not so long ago, though - how about you?

 

In terms of information however, I can't say that I'm lagging much behind. In fact, the amount of sources I follow (both on the conservative and liberal side) would probably put me above the regular intake of the the average Joe. And there's nothing arrogant about that.

Edited 4 July 2019 by MC Prussian

[Innovindil]

50 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

You're telling an American you know better than him about his own country?

 

That's astonishingly arrogant, even by your standards.

It's funny because there's about a thousand people on FT that aren't American but tell trump what he's doing wrong. 

 

 

[Grebfromgrebland]

The treatment of children in the US is nothing short of disgusting. It shouldn't matter what your political situation is to be able to condemn this.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/07/border-patrols-oversight-sick-migrant-children/593224/

[MC Prussian]

16 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

The treatment of children in the US is nothing short of disgusting. It shouldn't matter what your political situation is to be able to condemn this.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/07/border-patrols-oversight-sick-migrant-children/593224/

You mean the treatment of children who belong to (illegal) immigrants or children who are used by strangers/people who are not family members as some sort of protective "shield"/pretense for people to gain illegal entry to the US? It is alleged that men are now buying children to do so:

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/authorities-investigate-reports-of-migrants-trying-to-buy-children-to-enter-the-u-s/

 

I agree that the conditions at the US border appear to be dubious in parts, but you have to see the other side of the argument and consider the fact that US Border Patrol at present isn't equipped to handle his many (illegal) immigrants at once, and that for such a long period of time.

Quote

In April, for the second month in a row, the authorities arrested more than 100,000 immigrants at the southern border, the highest totals in over a decade. That pace has persisted into May. On a single day last week, May 10, agents in the Border Patrol’s Rio Grande Valley sector arrested more than 400 immigrants who had illegally crossed the Rio Grande.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/16/us/immigrants-mexico-tents.html

 

They are short of staff, housing, food, and struggle to cope with the influx. They are doing the best they can under the circumstances.

Edited 4 July 2019 by MC Prussian

[Suzie the Fox]

21 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

The treatment of children in the US is nothing short of disgusting. It shouldn't matter what your political situation is to be able to condemn this.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/07/border-patrols-oversight-sick-migrant-children/593224/

That’s a heartbreaking read. ?

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, MC Prussian said:

You mean the treatment of children who belong to (illegal) immigrants or children who are used by strangers/people who are not family members as some sort of protective "shield"/pretense for people to gain illegal entry to the US? It is alleged that men are now buying children to do so:

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/authorities-investigate-reports-of-migrants-trying-to-buy-children-to-enter-the-u-s/

 

I agree that the conditions at the US border appear to be dubious in parts, but you have to see the other side of the argument and consider the fact that US Border Patrol at present isn't equipped to handle his many (illegal) immigrants at once, and that for such a long period of time.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/16/us/immigrants-mexico-tents.html

 

They are short of staff, housing, food, and struggle to cope with the influx. They are doing the best they can under the circumstances.

Oh, sorry, people must have forgotten that children that are suffering but are being used as political capital don't deserve the same standard of care as other children. Easy mistake to make.

 

WRT the funding shortage, that's most definitely the case but the last time I checked the current administration has a majority in the Senate and can approve funding directly to that end - as opposed, for instance, to the latest batch of proposed funding which was mostly on "enforcement" and much less on the staff, housing and food mentioned here.

[leicsmac]

When it comes to the earlier topic about opinions on this administration within and without the US...my own take is that people outside the US are of course often knowledgable enough to offer informed opinions on what they think of the doings of this  administration...but the opinion is exactly that - subjective and the product of interpretation, which means they're always open to question. The same is true of opinions from people living in the US now.

 

However...taking away the thoughts on what Trump and company are doing and just looking at what they are doing and looking at future projections from it, it's probable that what they're doing isn't in the interest of the majority of Americans in the short term, very probable that what they're doing isn't in the interest of the majority of Americans in the long term, and likewise very probable that what they're doing isn't in the interest of the majority of people in the world in either the short or long term. That isn't an opinion. That is as close to objective truth as politics tends to get - the only question mark is that the projections regarding the future might not be accurate, hence the qualifiers probable and very probable being used.

 

Now, how that is interpreted (as a good or bad thing) then comes down to the individual and how they view the job of the US government (serve only their voting bloc or try to serve everyone, look after their country first or try to look after the world too?) and how much they value the future as opposed to the present. My own views are fairly clear, but others think differently, and fair enough.

 

 

[Buce]

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

When it comes to the earlier topic about opinions on this administration within and without the US...my own take is that people outside the US are of course often knowledgable enough to offer informed opinions on what they think of the doings of this  administration...but the opinion is exactly that - subjective and the product of interpretation, which means they're always open to question. The same is true of opinions from people living in the US now.

 

However...taking away the thoughts on what Trump and company are doing and just looking at what they are doing and looking at future projections from it, it's probable that what they're doing isn't in the interest of the majority of Americans in the short term, very probable that what they're doing isn't in the interest of the majority of Americans in the long term, and likewise very probable that what they're doing isn't in the interest of the majority of people in the world in either the short or long term. That isn't an opinion. That is as close to objective truth as politics tends to get - the only question mark is that the projections regarding the future might not be accurate, hence the qualifiers probable and very probable being used.

 

Now, how that is interpreted (as a good or bad thing) then comes down to the individual and how they view the job of the US government (serve only their voting bloc or try to serve everyone, look after their country first or try to look after the world too?) and how much they value the future as opposed to the present. My own views are fairly clear, but others think differently, and fair enough.

 

 

 

Most Americans I know - and I know a good few - are appalled and embarrassed by Trump.

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Most Americans I know - and I know a good few - are appalled and embarrassed by Trump.

Absolutely, because they place a lesser value on self-interest and a greater value on the future than others - as do I.

 

Here I'm just trying to reduce it to base principles and give insight into the varying motivations from there.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Absolutely, because they place a lesser value on self-interest and a greater value on the future than others - as do I.

 

Here I'm just trying to reduce it to base principles and give insight into the varying motivations from there.

I think you are oversimplifying things a lot

 

And assuming you are morally better than anyone with different views to you, completely unabashedly

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

22 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Absolutely, because they place a lesser value on self-interest and a greater value on the future than others - as do I.

 

Here I'm just trying to reduce it to base principles and give insight into the varying motivations from there.

Here's an American with a different view if interested

 

 

[leicsmac]

18 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

I think you are oversimplifying things a lot

 

And assuming you are morally better than anyone with different views to you, completely unabashedly

Nope...not what I was getting at. Evidently I wasn't clear enough, apologies.

 

Morality is subjective just like anything else. My own personal morality is based on trying to make sure humanity lasts as long as possible in the best way possible, but I'm not about to say that's the universally, light-in-the-sky "right" thing to do and quote it as absolute dogmatic fact, not when I know that viewpoint itself is as subjective as any other one.

 

What I'm saying is that the actions of Trumps administration are largely immoral from my own standpoint, but it is only my standpoint - not some objective metric. What I said about the actions of this administration are - to the best knowledge we have - probably factual. What someone then chooses to do with that information is up to them and their own personal morality.

Edited 4 July 2019 by leicsmac

[Guest SO1]

10 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Most Americans I know - and I know a good few - are appalled and embarrassed by Trump.

There are very good reasons why Trump is president. Unfortunately most are unwilling to do the research necessary to find out why these events occur.

With good reason(time) and the comfort of hearing only what fits in with our present viewpoint.

With most issues it becomes easy for me to be frustrated as I see the answers to these problems as being of spirituality and philosophy. Something which is rarely talked about.

Politics has become a facade to discuss anything but the heart of what it is to be a part of the planet earth.

but then I should know better.......what a incredible place for god to experience itself...............Play On!

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

This is quite sweet

Edited 4 July 2019 by AlloverthefloorYesNdidi

[the fox]

The old white guy was so disappointed

 

 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

3 minutes ago, the fox said:

The old white guy was so disappointed

 

 

He didnt know what to think

[the fox]

4 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

He didnt know what to think

He was trying to be as nice as possible when talking about them.

 

I feel a little bad for the man tbh. If not for men like him who don't discriminate, those people possibly wouldn't have gotten the chance to live in the US or at least integrate in the communities. He's trying to do as much good as he can but those things must be demoralizing.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

19 minutes ago, the fox said:

He was trying to be as nice as possible when talking about them.

 

I feel a little bad for the man tbh. If not for men like him who don't discriminate, those people possibly wouldn't have gotten the chance to live in the US or at least integrate in the communities. He's trying to do as much good as he can but those things must be demoralizing.

I think its condescensing of you to assume they dont know who they are supporting

 

They're Vietnamese Americans. Doesnt mean they're stupid. They spoke about political issues and of why they like Trump, with passion.  They spoke of being legal immigrants and not wanting illegal immigration.

They spoke about Trump's tough stance policy on China and that chimed in with my Vietnamese missus' view of China. If you know Vietnamese people i think there is a good chance you will know they are aware of the looming tyranny of China and appreciate Trump's rhetoric on the matter

 

The old white guy just held up a sign with a meaningless slogan and professed his confusion.  

 

You ignore all of that because you and that old white guy have bought into a narrative that Trump is racist and hates immigrants, to be frank

 

When a bunch of immigrant people of colour support Trump, you say they dont know what they're doing.  That is actually racist.

 

I know that last paragraph is harsh, and you are not a racist person, but honestly its maddening.  Some of you knee jerk Trump haters need to be questioning just a little bit how you perceice him. Try to see the other point of view

 

 

Edited 4 July 2019 by AlloverthefloorYesNdidi

[the fox]

1 hour ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

I think its condescensing of you to assume they dont know who they are supporting

Oh no no no, they know exactly who they are supporting (at least for the most part). They just choose to overlook many of his "misgivings" because they are in the US and they get to benefit from the positives of their standings. I may obviously be very wrong here but I think if the roles were switched, They would've been singing a different song. After all, they went there looking for a better life, right? The same thing the illegal immigrants are trying to do.

 

1 hour ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

They're Vietnamese Americans. Doesnt mean they're stupid

Who said they are stupid?

 

1 hour ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

They spoke about political issues and of why they like Trump, with passion

Oh did they speak. The passion was so strong that they even imitated the way Trump speaks. A lot of "did a lot of good things" thrown there yet so little statistics and informations (not like those 2 can't be misleading. But that's neither here nor there). But hey, there is a possibility that the guy who provided all the info didn't make the video.

 

1 hour ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

They spoke of being legal immigrants and not wanting illegal immigration.

No problem there. But people have to remember, not everyone gets the chance to be a legal immigrant. Reverse roles and all that.

 

1 hour ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

They spoke about Trump's tough stance policy on China and that chimed in with my Vietnamese missus' view of China. If you know Vietnamese people i think there is a good chance you will know they are aware of the looming tyranny of China and appreciate Trump's rhetoric on the matter

 Almost Everyone has his good merits, But that shouldn't mean people should overlook everything else. Trump has many misgivings but that wouldn't effect their support for him because they aren't the ones effected (for the most part of course).

 

1 hour ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

The old white guy just held up a sign with a meaningless slogan and professed his confusion.  

 

The guy was peaceful and his point was clear. I don't see it as meaningless. Unless you want his full opinion to be written on that small piece of cardboard.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

You ignore all of that because you and that old white guy have bought into a narrative that Trump is racist and hates immigrants, to be frank

 

Well, he did more than enough to help that narrative.

 

1 hour ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

When a bunch of immigrant people of colour support Trump, you say they dont know what they're doing.  That is actually racist.

When did I say that they don't know what they are doing? But I like your point a lot. You assumed that I was assuming that they were stupid. 

 

1 hour ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

1 hour ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

I know that last paragraph is harsh, and you are not an intentionally racist person, but honestly its maddening.  Some of you knee jerk Trump haters need to questioning just a little bit how you perceice him. Try to see the other point of view

 

Are you assuming that I'm not smart enough or reasonable enough to see past my trump "hatred"? That is kinda racist you know. (I was joking here btw. I'm saying this so we can avoid any unneeded misunderstanding)

 

All joking aside, just relax a bit, man. You could've asked me why I thought that without needing to post all that and form an opinion based on very few words.

 

Edited 5 July 2019 by the fox

[the fox]

Just to add, those people are free to think and support what they like. You formed an opinion about them and so did I. Don't think it's so farfetched for 2 people to form 2 different points of view. About the same topic.

Edited 5 July 2019 by the fox

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

I think its condescensing of you to assume they dont know who they are supporting

 

They're Vietnamese Americans. Doesnt mean they're stupid. They spoke about political issues and of why they like Trump, with passion.  They spoke of being legal immigrants and not wanting illegal immigration.

They spoke about Trump's tough stance policy on China and that chimed in with my Vietnamese missus' view of China. If you know Vietnamese people i think there is a good chance you will know they are aware of the looming tyranny of China and appreciate Trump's rhetoric on the matter

 

The old white guy just held up a sign with a meaningless slogan and professed his confusion.  

 

You ignore all of that because you and that old white guy have bought into a narrative that Trump is racist and hates immigrants, to be frank

 

When a bunch of immigrant people of colour support Trump, you say they dont know what they're doing.  That is actually racist.

 

I know that last paragraph is harsh, and you are not a racist person, but honestly its maddening.  Some of you knee jerk Trump haters need to be questioning just a little bit how you perceice him. Try to see the other point of view

 

 

Can only speak for myself here, but already did, see above.

 

Also...

 

6 minutes ago, the fox said:

Just to add, those people are free to think and support what they like. You formed an opinion about them and so did I. Don't think it's so farfetched for 2 people to form 2 different points of view. About the same topic.

This.

 

The policy this administration enacts is factual - what people make of it is purely open to their own interpretation - again, as above.

 

BTW I'm pushing this particular angle a lot because right now there's way too much opinion being expressed as fact - both here and out in the wider world - and it has the potential to be damaging IMO.

[leicsmac]

On a somewhat different note...

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-48862621/jim-beam-warehouse-fire-destroys-45000-barrels-of-bourbon

 

Now this is tragic.

[ozleicester]

This man and Murdoch are why we are, where we are.

 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

9 hours ago, the fox said:

Oh no no no, they know exactly who they are supporting (at least for the most part). They just choose to overlook many of his "misgivings" because they are in the US and they get to benefit from the positives of their standings. I may obviously be very wrong here but I think if the roles were switched, They would've been singing a different song. After all, they went there looking for a better life, right? The same thing the illegal immigrants are trying to do.

 

Who said they are stupid?

 

Oh did they speak. The passion was so strong that they even imitated the way Trump speaks. A lot of "did a lot of good things" thrown there yet so little statistics and informations (not like those 2 can't be misleading. But that's neither here nor there). But hey, there is a possibility that the guy who provided all the info didn't make the video.

 

No problem there. But people have to remember, not everyone gets the chance to be a legal immigrant. Reverse roles and all that.

 

 Almost Everyone has his good merits, But that shouldn't mean people should overlook everything else. Trump has many misgivings but that wouldn't effect their support for him because they aren't the ones effected (for the most part of course).

 

The guy was peaceful and his point was clear. I don't see it as meaningless. Unless you want his full opinion to be written on that small piece of cardboard.

 

 

 

 

Well, he did more than enough to help that narrative.

 

When did I say that they don't know what they are doing? But I like your point a lot. You assumed that I was assuming that they were stupid. 

 

Are you assuming that I'm not smart enough or reasonable enough to see past my trump "hatred"? That is kinda racist you know. (I was joking here btw. I'm saying this so we can avoid any unneeded misunderstanding)

 

All joking aside, just relax a bit, man. You could've asked me why I thought that without needing to post all that and form an opinion based on very few words.

 

All your points are based on faulty assumptions, about racist politics that Trump is the source of.  You 100% imply they dont know what they're doing if you say they support a man who is antithetical to their existence in the country. Thats simply the logic of your statement love

 

They are immigrants celebrating a country that welcomed them and in which they have thrived, going through a protracted process. Why should they be happy about illegal immigranfs cutting a line they were once in?

 

You've ignored the thrust of that point because its impossible for you to view Trump politics as anything but racist

 

And like it or not you whitewash over their politics completely in favour of orange man bad pov

 

My gf's friend said it took them 15 years to apply for a visa to live in America. Its a massive ballache to get permission to live in other countries, of course its perfectly reasonable to be a little miffed when others stroll in in their thousands (and they are not refugees)

 

And yes, they were talking. Did you not listen?  One man said he is fromTexas and people should see whats happening in El Paso and that the wall is what they believe they need etc.  (The wall is a symbol more than anything)

 

I enjoyed how you gave men like that old man credit for the concept of accepting immigrants, in America! 

 

Dont know what race you are btw buddy so dont get your joke im afraid.

 

Im perfectly relaxed if my points seem to be aggressive i honestly believe its only because yours are so soft in the bladdy head, said with love x

Edited 5 July 2019 by AlloverthefloorYesNdidi