the fox Posted 27 June 2019 Share Posted 27 June 2019 (edited) Like Buce said, slavery dates way back in time. Slavery existed in North Africa for a long time and was practiced by the endogenous people of that region. They even enslaved a lot of Europeans. Edited 27 June 2019 by the fox 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 27 June 2019 Share Posted 27 June 2019 3 hours ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said: Apparently democrats did the exact same thing in the recent past, refusing to show up to pass a Republican bill. You seem to think im allied to one side of politics which i think is why you brought that up in the first place. Ive actually always been leftist but these days i think if you are on the left and vocally supporting them you are not being realistic Yes in the article it says it happened in 2011. Does that justify it in your eyes? 3 hours ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said: I dont see the defense you have made of AOC and Omar there at all. Those tweets could have been posted to criticise your case! Even included the holocaust comparisons! "Weve shown what they do with that money. Build more camps" Yes! So ICE can do the job that has always been their job and people dont die of exposure in the desert. This should have been the number one consideration, not politics on immigration. The point you're missing is that these camps were not run like this nor were they so overcrowded before and ICE have not always operated as indiscriminately as they do now. Under Obama the focus was on incarcerating criminal gangs, not a scattergun approach which victimises people who have been living in the country peacefully, productively and legally for years but now for whatever reason find themselves without a valid visa. 3 hours ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said: Its truly laughable. Warren now talking about decriminilisin illegal immigration. Its not good for anyone. Especially anyone who doesnt want to see Trump elected again. If he doesnt win it will be probably because he hasnt succeeded building the wall, not because of his "evil" immigration policy. (He will win though) I imagine they mean something like the aforementioned Obama policy where those productive humans I mentioned were allowed to deal with ICE by post and by attending regularly scheduled follow-up meetings instead of being arrested and detained like criminals. 3 hours ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said: Omar: "kids and families being terrorized". How does this language not bother you as inflammatory unhelpful nonsense? At least Trump's horrible language has behind it simple policy that lots of normal working class people agree with and might prevent deaths like the recent sad ones reported near the border. Omar and AOC are apparent lunatics and any sensible leftists should be hating what they are doing That's exactly the effect of a blanket policy that fails to differentiate between a productive member of society and an actual criminal. There are people who have lived in the USA legally for years who have now fallen on hard times and find themselves in very real fear of having their family torn apart by deportations. You'd be pretty terrified if the government was determined to drag people like you out of your home with no consideration for your situation only to dump you on a concrete floor in a cold, overcrowded room all for the crime of having the wrong paperwork. By all means deal with the issue of illegal immigration, I don't think people are saying to ignore it altogether and invite the entire world over to fill up every available square centimetre of land mass, but deal with it humanely and in a manner that befits a civilised, advanced, rich nation, like Obama was doing. 3 hours ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said: And it turns out most dems did approve that aid in the end with a few concessions, because it was insanity to refuse aid in the first place. So it wasnt so bad after all because in the end more funding to ICE isnt the same as actual Auschwitz and everyone knows this. Although the immigration officer mentioned below said the House version amounts to extortion as it cuts funding for enforcement Of course they want to cut enforcement money when it's being spent on blanket raids that aren't helping anything and only add to the overcrowding at detention camps. 3 hours ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said: Are you saying Obama didnt have these detention centres and cages and family separations didnt happen under him? That he didnt deport people? Recently Obama's former immigration chief said these places were built under him. The arrival of young kids coming in large numbers is a new thing and congress not giving the aid they need to deal with it all is the problem On anything like this scale? No. Obviously he had to have these mechanisms but as has already been said he employed his resources far more humanely. 3 hours ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said: And democrats stalled in giving that aid and you are defending the ones calling it terror and concentration camps You seem well meaning but the content of your position is barmy to me Am I? You may want to have another look at my comment, specifically the paragraph where I move on from presenting some facts of the case to offering my own opinion that I wouldn't do what they're doing. I feel like you just want to disagree with me on this. I think you should at least understand my position before you start insulting it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the fox Posted 27 June 2019 Share Posted 27 June 2019 (edited) .. Edited 27 June 2019 by the fox 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlloverthefloorYesNdidi Posted 27 June 2019 Share Posted 27 June 2019 6 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: Yes in the article it says it happened in 2011. Does that justify it in your eyes? The point you're missing is that these camps were not run like this nor were they so overcrowded before and ICE have not always operated as indiscriminately as they do now. Under Obama the focus was on incarcerating criminal gangs, not a scattergun approach which victimises people who have been living in the country peacefully, productively and legally for years but now for whatever reason find themselves without a valid visa. I imagine they mean something like the aforementioned Obama policy where those productive humans I mentioned were allowed to deal with ICE by post and by attending regularly scheduled follow-up meetings instead of being arrested and detained like criminals. That's exactly the effect of a blanket policy that fails to differentiate between a productive member of society and an actual criminal. There are people who have lived in the USA legally for years who have now fallen on hard times and find themselves in very real fear of having their family torn apart by deportations. You'd be pretty terrified if the government was determined to drag people like you out of your home with no consideration for your situation only to dump you on a concrete floor in a cold, overcrowded room all for the crime of having the wrong paperwork. By all means deal with the issue of illegal immigration, I don't think people are saying to ignore it altogether and invite the entire world over to fill up every available square centimetre of land mass, but deal with it humanely and in a manner that befits a civilised, advanced, rich nation, like Obama was doing. Of course they want to cut enforcement money when it's being spent on blanket raids that aren't helping anything and only add to the overcrowding at detention camps. On anything like this scale? No. Obviously he had to have these mechanisms but as has already been said he employed his resources far more humanely. Am I? You may want to have another look at my comment, specifically the paragraph where I move on from presenting some facts of the case to offering my own opinion that I wouldn't do what they're doing. I feel like you just want to disagree with me on this. I think you should at least understand my position before you start insulting it. No it doesnt justify it at all. Its only relevant to this conversation for you because you think im partisan. I didnt bring it up Is that true that the deportations would include legal immigrants? Terrible if so. Have a source for that? As far as Obama's more "humane" policies, not really true as far as I can tell...? Trump ramped up arrests of illegal immigrants a bit, but Obama was still rounding them up from their homes and the majority of those deported had no criminal records or only minor misdemeanours. Small percentage of proper criminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 27 June 2019 Share Posted 27 June 2019 As much as it would be nice to go in for the r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM line and say that the two major parties in the US are broadly similar in terms of how they approach policy... Yeah, the Dems are probably to the right of the UK Conservative Party in terms of policy and on occasions there isn't a great deal to pick between the two...but it must be mentioned, yet again, that their policy on safe abortions, access to birth control and other womens issues, and scientific and (in particular) environmental policy is significantly different (read; better), than that of the Repubs. Ah, a fresh example from Alabama to cite with this: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/alabama-woman-shot-unborn-baby-manslaughter-court-marshae-jones-shooting-fight-a8976946.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 27 June 2019 Share Posted 27 June 2019 4 hours ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said: No it doesnt justify it at all. Its only relevant to this conversation for you because you think im partisan. I didnt bring it up Is that true that the deportations would include legal immigrants? Terrible if so. Have a source for that? As far as Obama's more "humane" policies, not really true as far as I can tell...? Trump ramped up arrests of illegal immigrants a bit, but Obama was still rounding them up from their homes and the majority of those deported had no criminal records or only minor misdemeanours. Small percentage of proper criminals. Legal immigrants whose paperwork has lapsed, yes. And ICE absolutely were reigned back under Obama, it was a big policy of his. This is all public domain info so a quick google should confirm it for you but I can find you a source this evening when I'm home from work if you need me to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlloverthefloorYesNdidi Posted 27 June 2019 Share Posted 27 June 2019 1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said: Legal immigrants whose paperwork has lapsed, yes. And ICE absolutely were reigned back under Obama, it was a big policy of his. This is all public domain info so a quick google should confirm it for you but I can find you a source this evening when I'm home from work if you need me to. After paperwork expires that sounds to me like they are technically illegal? Please do send because i looked to google before i posted what i posted and i got details from left leaning websites who criticised both Trump and Obama for their policies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Prussian Posted 27 June 2019 Share Posted 27 June 2019 (edited) The Democratic debate last night was hilarious. So much Meme material. Beto evading a question in English about the ideal tax rate, answering in Spanish instead. He did in fact still evade the question, even in Spanish! Meanwhile, Trump goes Edited 27 June 2019 by MC Prussian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 28 June 2019 Share Posted 28 June 2019 Warren looked pretty good to me, and I guess we'll see what happens with Biden, Bernie et al tonight too. A Warren/Booker or Warren/Yang ticket would be nice, though I also like Harris (even though she has a certain amount of baggage herself). In any case, as above, the policies speak for themselves in a lot of areas anyway. Two tidbits from the Supreme Court coming in, one good, one not so good: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48789838 Gerrymandering is the only reason the Repubs can win elections on the scale needed in some places (due to sheer number discrepancy), so making sure the question is avoided was one of the reasons that Gorsuch and Kauvanagh were put on the Supreme Court in the first place. Well played. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48791272 Good of Justice Roberts to cross the line on this one - there is no need for such a question in a census beyond it being used to target those who answer it in a way this administration do not like, as well as supplying better data for the use of gerrymandering as above. It does seem, however, that the reason this failed was because the administration dropped the ball on asking exactly why they wanted the question to be included so it's likely they'll try a different tack on the same thing again soon enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 28 June 2019 Share Posted 28 June 2019 Biden taking hits from all sides here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brizzle Fox Posted 28 June 2019 Share Posted 28 June 2019 4 hours ago, leicsmac said: Biden taking hits from all sides here. I thought Harris destroyed him. He looked shocked. She was pitch perfect. Focusing on his policy history rather than youth vs experience was the right tack and differentiated her. I'm always impressed by Warren and thought she was good again on Wednesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grebfromgrebland Posted 28 June 2019 Share Posted 28 June 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 28 June 2019 Share Posted 28 June 2019 In Korea, visiting the DMZ before the G20 meeting this weekend, apparently. Mind your step, Donnie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 29 June 2019 Share Posted 29 June 2019 James Fields sentenced: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48806265 If the parents of Heather Heyer can forgive him, then I guess others can too. You've got to hope that even neo-Nazi (which is what he described himself as, let's not get semantic here) pieces of excrement have a chance at redemption and change, otherwise, what's the point in engaging them in the first place? Here's hoping he gets the help he requires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 29 June 2019 Share Posted 29 June 2019 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48809129 TBH though there hasn't been much tangible progress, actually wanting to talk more with the NK leaders marks Trump apart from previous US leaders and if that actually results in NK eventually engaging the wider world better that can only be a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 30 June 2019 Share Posted 30 June 2019 Further to the above, it's actually happened: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48814975 Yes, it's just a photo-op, but if it leads to further talks down the line, that's a good thing. Incidentally, this is the first time - ever - that South Korea, North Korea and the US have had its leaders together in the same place trilaterally. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wymsey Posted 30 June 2019 Share Posted 30 June 2019 Two great dangers (not minds) speak alike.. It may seem a positive thing from the outside, but it might not be so sweet for the west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzy Posted 30 June 2019 Share Posted 30 June 2019 Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 30 June 2019 Share Posted 30 June 2019 See how long you can manage to watch this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ealingfox Posted 30 June 2019 Share Posted 30 June 2019 2 minutes ago, bovril said: See how long you can manage to watch this: Seen a couple of shares of this but I can't make a out a word they're saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 30 June 2019 Share Posted 30 June 2019 17 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said: Two great dangers (not minds) speak alike.. It may seem a positive thing from the outside, but it might not be so sweet for the west. My viewpoint on Trump is abundantly clear but the idea of the "West and everyone else" and that "they have to be ideologically opposed/good for one is bad for the other" needs to go IMO. It's darkly hilarious that it is someone like Trump who knows the square sum of naff all about the norms of international relations who might actually go some way towards making that happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trav Le Bleu Posted 30 June 2019 Share Posted 30 June 2019 On 27/06/2019 at 10:35, the fox said: Like Buce said, slavery dates way back in time. Slavery existed in North Africa for a long time and was practiced by the endogenous people of that region. They even enslaved a lot of Europeans. And still exists today. The other day I was watching a news report about Eastern European workers coming over to work harvesting crops and how Brexit would put an end to it, but farmers would have to pay more to employ British workers. It especially caught me when I saw them all walking along behind the tractor (driven by the hard working farmer) constantly bent over picking crops in it's wake and I thought, this could easily be an 18th century cotton plantation. Of course, these workers have better conditions and are free to leave, but economically they are enslaved. It's not a million miles away. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 30 June 2019 Share Posted 30 June 2019 17 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said: And still exists today. The other day I was watching a news report about Eastern European workers coming over to work harvesting crops and how Brexit would put an end to it, but farmers would have to pay more to employ British workers. It especially caught me when I saw them all walking along behind the tractor (driven by the hard working farmer) constantly bent over picking crops in it's wake and I thought, this could easily be an 18th century cotton plantation. Of course, these workers have better conditions and are free to leave, but economically they are enslaved. It's not a million miles away. There are charcoal makers in Brazil that are slaves in every sense: when they begin work, they arrive with nothing, so they have to buy a week's food on credit from the employer. The money they earn is never enough to clear that debt, and they can't leave until it is. Worse still, upon death the debt can be legally transferred to the children of the debtor who are effectively born into slavery. The same practice applies in parts of West Africa too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 30 June 2019 Share Posted 30 June 2019 Seriously, he can't string a coherent sentence together. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlloverthefloorYesNdidi Posted 30 June 2019 Share Posted 30 June 2019 19 minutes ago, Facecloth said: Seriously, he can't string a coherent sentence together. Trump does something good which if a politician you like did the same you would praise them for it, but you choose to take a cheap shot instead If you watch that video it doesnt sound incoherent at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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