A New Political Movement or Uprising?

[Webbo]

13 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

 

Your level of incomprehension leaves me speechless

 

I get it. It's okay for thugs to intimidate people into a system of govt they'd never vote for as  long as you agree with them because you're a good person and people who disagree with you aren't. 

[Webbo]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

We currently have increasing levels of poverty, expensive education and an nhs undergoing privatisation. This doesn't sound any better. 

Yeah, living standards in Cuba are much better than here.

[Lionator]

It's the reluctance to change things which frustrate me too. Even in the worst three months of terrorist attacks in our history (in quantity), absolutely nothing is being done to tackle the social problems which cause them. The people who commit these atrocities in 2017 are mainly disenfranchised youth who get convinced by the twisted radicalisers (wherever they may be) that waging jihad on the evil west and killing themselves is better than getting a career and integrating, these people aren't born evil, they're not aliens from Mars who are always destined for this. There are root causes within our society that leads them down the wrong paths, not to mention our shocking recent foreign policy record which just makes these attacks easier to justify in the terrorists opinions. Theresa May clearly isn't interested in dealing with these. Corbyn with his foreign policy statement is at least wanting to do something.

[ozleicester]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I get it. It's okay for thugs to intimidate people into a system of govt they'd never vote for as  long as you agree with them because you're a good person and people who disagree with you aren't. 

This time im not comprehending?

 

We currently have a system that allows people to suffer and die in order to save money, A system that supports and encourages people who already have more money than they could ever need to exploit those with less.

 

Good or bad people.... its the system that is wrong and unless we make a change people will be forced into suffering and early death forever.

 

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

Yeah, living standards in Cuba are much better than here.

It isnt perfect, but then the King of capitalists has been destroying it for years, it still offers free health care, free education etc etc.

 

If you have read anything about the US and what it has (and as of today thanks to your friend Trump) continues to do to Cuba you would realise that it was the capitalists outside the country that caused most of the problems.

 

You can refer to them locking up people... but then you can look at Guantanamo, Abu Grhaid, and who knows how many renditions and tortures.

 

Right now... the UK's financial problems could be solved by ensuring that the very rich paid tax appropriately and the nationalisation of industry

[Thracian]

27 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

 

Your level of incomprehension leaves me speechless

 

 

Socialism does not need to be opposed to human rights, in fact it aligns perfectly well with them. Exploitation and interference can cause some issues and it isnt perfect, but we need to start looking for all not just the ruling elites.

 

Indeed capitalism has been of benefit, but that benefit ended (for the majority) about 40-50 years ago, sure Africa has been brought up and poverty reduced there, but only by exploiting the land and the people, they may no longer live on a dollar a day, but compare how much the top end have made compared to the poor.

Corbyn's not going to govern for all, that's for sure. And to suggest the benefits of capitalism - here or anywhere else - have ended "for the majority" seems way off the mark to me.  Last I heard a day or two back, this country employed more people than ever.

 

 

[Webbo]

8 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

This time im not comprehending?

 

We currently have a system that allows people to suffer and die in order to save money, A system that supports and encourages people who already have more money than they could ever need to exploit those with less.

 

Good or bad people.... its the system that is wrong and unless we make a change people will be forced into suffering and early death forever.

 

It isnt perfect, but then the King of capitalists has been destroying it for years, it still offers free health care, free education etc etc.

 

If you have read anything about the US and what it has (and as of today thanks to your friend Trump) continues to do to Cuba you would realise that it was the capitalists outside the country that caused most of the problems.

 

You can refer to them locking up people... but then you can look at Guantanamo, Abu Grhaid, and who knows how many renditions and tortures.

 

Right now... the UK's financial problems could be solved by ensuring that the very rich paid tax appropriately and the nationalisation of industry

The king of capitalism hasn't has been destroying Venezuela for years. A country swimming in oil where extreme poverty is increasing at a rapid pace, thugs beat up dissenters and you can't even buy a roll of toilet paper.

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

The king of capitalism hasn't has been destroying Venezuela for years. A country swimming in oil where extreme poverty is increasing at a rapid pace, thugs beat up dissenters and you can't even buy a roll of toilet paper.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-05-02/u-s-may-consider-new-sanctions-on-venezuela-as-crisis-deepens

 

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/pages/venezuela.aspx

 

https://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35766.htm

 

Wrong again.

[Innovindil]

19 minutes ago, Lionator said:

It's the reluctance to change things which frustrate me too. Even in the worst three months of terrorist attacks in our history (in quantity), absolutely nothing is being done to tackle the social problems which cause them. The people who commit these atrocities in 2017 are mainly disenfranchised youth who get convinced by the twisted radicalisers (wherever they may be) that waging jihad on the evil west and killing themselves is better than getting a career and integrating, these people aren't born evil, they're not aliens from Mars who are always destined for this. There are root causes within our society that leads them down the wrong paths, not to mention our shocking recent foreign policy record which just makes these attacks easier to justify in the terrorists opinions. Theresa May clearly isn't interested in dealing with these. Corbyn with his foreign policy statement is at least wanting to do something.

The willy puller that ran people over on the London Bridge and stabbed that copper was a middle aged, well educated school teacher. The lad that blew up the concert in Manchester was described by schoolfriends as a real nice guy who used to laugh and joke with everyone. 

 

Can we stop this ridiculous belief that the people doing this crap are somehow alienated from society and suffering. It's absolute tosh and makes me sick to my stomach. 

[Thracian]

9 hours ago, toddybad said:

You'd have to be very selective to find figures to support the idea that economic performance is currently good. Falling wages, increasing inflation, slowing housing market (a good thing btw), diminishing growth and consumer confidence all point in the opposite direction. The problem the Tories have is that they've spent years telling people austerity is for a greater purpose but there doesn't appear to be any positive end to it. You may disagree with me but it seems to me an entirely self-made problem as loosening the purse strings could have improved a number of the indicators. 

 

I've said it before but George Osborne sold austerity on the premise that you should "fix the roof while the sun shines". I could have lived with us scaling back during the good years to give us something to fall back on in the bad. There is sense in that. The problem was that he went for austerity during the bad times. This has only made things worse as the national economy has been in a state of stagnation for years. Growth, primarily from unrealistic house prices, has been focused on only one area of the country which has propped up the national figures. 

Didn't Mrs May say "austerity was over" a few days back

 

A bit late, I accept.

 

As for economic performance I'd say the fact that we're employing more people than ever suggests a healthy economy. 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/15/employment-hits-record-high-uk-firms-keep-hiring/

 

 

[Vacamion]

32 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Yeah, living standards in Cuba are much better than here.

 

I was over in Cuba last year and practised my Spanish on a local and was told a few things which aren't in the tourist brochures.

 

The charming lady explained that there are bars over many of the windows in Havana because when when the Russkies pulled out, there was so much poverty that people were breaking into each others' homes and assaulting and killing each other, to steal food.  

 

They have improved things with a bit of tourist money, but they were really hanging their hopes on rapprochement with the USA, that the orange manbaby appears to have now deprived them of.

 

The state is still considered to be oppressive (you don't see many Cubans being allowed to leave).

 

Socialist utopia.

 

 

 

 

[ozleicester]

14 minutes ago, Thracian said:

Corbyn's not going to govern for all, that's for sure. And to suggest the benefits of capitalism - here or anywhere else - have ended "for the majority" seems way off the mark to me.  Last I heard a day or two back, this country employed more people than ever.

 

 

Unemployment rate 3.5 % in early 1970s

Unemployment rate 7.0% end of the 80's  (following the beginning of Thatcher "trickle down")

Currently its still double what it was in the 70s

 

The rich are paying less than ever

 

Corporate tax in 1970 - 40%

Corporate tax in 2017 - 19%

 

Why on earth doesnt the UK have enough money?... oh wait its the dole bludgers and immigrants

[Webbo]

10 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-05-02/u-s-may-consider-new-sanctions-on-venezuela-as-crisis-deepens

 

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/pages/venezuela.aspx

 

https://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35766.htm

 

Wrong again.

Quote

 

505. If an official of the Government of Venezuela is designated as a Specially Designated National (SDN), does that mean that the Government of Venezuela is blocked? What are the prohibitions on U.S. persons dealing with a designated government official or the Government of Venezuela?

No. The designation of an official of the Government of Venezuela does not mean that the government itself is also blocked. The prohibitions apply to transactions or dealings only with the individuals and entities whose property and interests in property are blocked. However, U.S. persons should be cautious in dealings with the government to ensure that they are not engaged in transactions or dealings, directly or indirectly, with an SDN, for example by entering into contracts that are signed by an SDN, entering into negotiations with an SDN, or by processing transactions, directly or indirectly, on behalf of the SDN, absent authorization or an applicable exemption. [02-13-17]

 

Quote

While the U.S. has so far avoided wide-ranging sanctions on the South American country or its economy, it has targeted individuals for drug trafficking and human rights violations stemming from anti-government protests in 2014. State oil company Petroleos de Venezuela SA has also seen minor sanctions over trade with Iran.

 

So if I'm reading this right there are sanctions against certain individuals, not the country as a whole.

 

Meanwhile, according to your link;

• Anti-government protests over past month have left 30 dead

 

 

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Why Venezuela's Many Crises Keep Getting Worse

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Unemployment rate 3.5 % in early 1970s

Unemployment rate 7.0% end of the 80's  (following the beginning of Thatcher "trickle down")

Currently its still double what it was in the 70s

 

The rich are paying less than ever

 

Corporate tax in 1970 - 40%

Corporate tax in 2017 - 19%

 

Why on earth doesnt the UK have enough money?... oh wait its the dole bludgers and immigrants

The current UK unemployment rate is 4.8%

 

So although living standards have declined in the last 10 years they are still vastly higher than 1980.

[ozleicester]

4 minutes ago, Webbo said:

The current UK unemployment rate is 4.8%

 

So although living standards have declined in the last 10 years they are still vastly higher than 1980.

Beg pardon.. yup unemployment is only 50% more than it was in the 70s (even though if you only work a couple of hours a week you are considered employed etc etc.)

 

Got a graph about the corporate tax rates?

 

[yorkie1999]

6 hours ago, ozleicester said:

To be honest... this is part of the problem IMO... PEACEFUL does NOT WORK. It is time for a real uprising, as someone mentioned the young have a short attention span and have been managed and controlled by governments to be scared or excited onto the next thing unless they are shown some results, and those results will NOT come from a meeting, Inquiry or roundtable.

 

Real change will come from it being forced onto the ruling classes. 

 

As for JC not having the money..or needing "other peoples" money, it aint other peoples. F8ckwits like Murdoch and the royal family  etc etc have billions.....get that... BILLIONS of pounds in banks, investments, more than they can ever spend (even if their privileged life does seem to make them immortal), they have more than their kids can spend. It is time it was taken from them and spread for the betterment of ALL 

 

This money must be appropriated and spent on the poor... FFS it really is simple, leave them a 100 million if you like, they wont even miss it.

 

Industry needs to be nationalised, the profits returned to the people. Why should a chosen few benefit from the work and efforts of the rest, No single person/entity should own the land that is mined etc it belongs to all and the profits should go to all, by way of better housing, better health, better education...etc etc

 

The appropriation/investment will create jobs

This will create tax income for "govts"

this will create demand for products

This will lift a generation from poverty

This will give people a reason to live and improve their societal involvement.

 

By the way.. those advocating "trickle down" are idiots, it doesnt work and hasnt, it is a flawed concept and has been proven so!

 

and Tories caring?

 

https://www.indy100.com/article/boris-johnson-london-tower-fire-grenfell-assembly-cuts-fire-service-7790971?utm_source=indy&utm_medium=top5&utm_campaign=i100

 

 

And you actually believe this rubbish.

Redistribution of wealth? well that might last a couple of years until all the poor people have spent their newly found fortunes on booze and drugs. Nationalized industry? which industry are you actually talking about, we haven't got any!  And how will you create jobs with a pot of money, what sort of jobs? Here's a better idea, compulsory retirement at 50 to free up the job market. But you know what that means, it means that the poor and young are going to have to start working for a living.

    You talk about better education? really. educated for what? or do you really mean educated longer thereby delaying the inevitable of having to find a job. Better health care? so we can live longer and drain resources even further.

   Demand for products? we don't make any products apart from stuff like hand knitted scarfs, it all comes from china, that's why when you go into asda you can buy 6 pairs of socks for 50p and a t-shirt for a fiver, or are you saying we create sweatshops paying kids a quid a week so we can produce stuff on the cheap.

  The real problem with this country is there's too many people living here for the resources available and the only answer for that is stop more people coming here and limit the amount of offspring we have. That's your revolution.

[ozleicester]

2 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

And you actually believe this rubbish.

Redistribution of wealth? well that might last a couple of years until all the poor people have spent their newly found fortunes on booze and drugs. Nationalized industry? which industry are you actually talking about, we haven't got any!  And how will you create jobs with a pot of money, what sort of jobs? Here's a better idea, compulsory retirement at 50 to free up the job market. But you know what that means, it means that the poor and young are going to have to start working for a living.

    You talk about better education? really. educated for what? or do you really mean educated longer thereby delaying the inevitable of having to find a job. Better health care? so we can live longer and drain resources even further.

   Demand for products? we don't make any products apart from stuff like hand knitted scarfs, it all comes from china, that's why when you go into asda you can buy 6 pairs of socks for 50p and a t-shirt for a fiver, or are you saying we create sweatshops paying kids a quid a week so we can produce stuff on the cheap.

  The real problem with this country is there's too many people living here for the resources available and the only answer for that is stop more people coming here and limit the amount of offspring we have. That's your revolution.

 yep coz all poor people are Alcoholics and Drug addicts.  ...

 

I agree with the compulsory retirement.... (i also think you shouldnt be able to vote after age 65)

 

Oh i see the young and poor are also lazy...

 

If we make "working" a viable option, we can rebuild manufacture, if we pay people fairly and employ them, they wont need to buy cheap stuff.

 

[Innovindil]

4 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Beg pardon.. yup unemployment is only 50% more than it was in the 70s (even though if you only work a couple of hours a week you are considered employed etc etc.)

 

Got a graph about the corporate tax rates?

 

Why the hell are you comparing now to the 70s. It's a completely different time, we didn't have hundreds of thousands of extra people a year needing jobs did we. 

 

You put corporation tax back up to 40%, see how many of them stick around instead of moving abroad. 

 

All in all, you want to steal money from the rich making them move away and losing their tax revenue, tax the crap out of businesses, making them move away and losing their tax revenue (and jobs!) and sink all of that money into the blackhole that is the NHS. While those stupid ****s in charge of it spend £800 on a sodding blind and then wonder where all the money is going. 

 

Just what the **** am i reading here. 

[Carl the Llama]

2 minutes ago, Thracian said:

Didn't Mrs May say "austerity was over" a few days back

 

A bit late, I accept.

 

As for economic performance I'd say the fact that we're employing more people than ever suggests a healthy economy. 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/15/employment-hits-record-high-uk-firms-keep-hiring/

 

 

For the employers taking advantage of the current system by exploiting zero-hours contracts and tax loopholes so they can hire more people on an income that can't be lived off while the wealth distribution continues to skew in favour of the richest members of society I'm sure it's great.

 

There's also the many business owners putting their loved ones on the pay-roll as a handy way of paying their allowance and simultaneously cutting the company's tax obligation, effectively adding another job to the employment stats but not the real world.

 

Meanwhile for those of us living and working in that real world, the employment figures aren't helping us pay our rent, buy food for the month then have enough left over to live anything closely resembling a life, let alone put anything aside at the end of the month for even worse times. The poorest are being squeezed ever more dry by living costs while the rich benefit from rampant deregulation and a government that doesn't want to upset them by asking them to pay their taxes.  And you wonder why the growing pool of people stuck at the bottom aren't happy?

[Lionator]

30 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

The willy puller that ran people over on the London Bridge and stabbed that copper was a middle aged, well educated school teacher. The lad that blew up the concert in Manchester was described by schoolfriends as a real nice guy who used to laugh and joke with everyone. 

 

Can we stop this ridiculous belief that the people doing this crap are somehow alienated from society and suffering. It's absolute tosh and makes me sick to my stomach. 

There's exceptions, obviously. The Manchester scumbag suddenly changed, why did this happen? Because extreme Islamism is allowed to thrive in working class communities in Britain. Nobody is prepared to tackle this, instead it's just useless reactionary stuff like arming more police officers, that's not going to stop terrorist attacks, dealing with the root causes within these communities is.

[Innovindil]

3 minutes ago, Lionator said:

There's exceptions, obviously. The Manchester scumbag suddenly changed, why did this happen? Because extreme Islamism is allowed to thrive in working class communities in Britain. Nobody is prepared to tackle this, instead it's just useless reactionary stuff like arming more police officers, that's not going to stop terrorist attacks, dealing with the root causes within these communities is.

Okay, I agree completely it shouldn't be allowed to thrive here. 

 

How would you stop it? 

[ozleicester]

2 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Why the hell are you comparing now to the 70s. It's a completely different time, we didn't have hundreds of thousands of extra people a year needing jobs did we. 

 

You put corporation tax back up to 40%, see how many of them stick around instead of moving abroad. 

 

All in all, you want to steal money from the rich making them move away and losing their tax revenue, tax the crap out of businesses, making them move away and losing their tax revenue (and jobs!) and sink all of that money into the blackhole that is the NHS. While those stupid ****s in charge of it spend £800 on a sodding blind and then wonder where all the money is going. 

 

Just what the **** am i reading here. 

Im quoting the 70s, because thats when the insane level of exploitation by the rich took off.

 

Thats when the corporates and millionaires conned us all that they were doing us a service by "providing" jobs and that governments handed over OUR business's to profiteers.

 

We are their slave labour paid the very least they can get away with.

 

Feel free to explain to me why a bank CEO should get paid 200 times as much as a the lowest paid in their business?

 

The business's wont go, instead, they will pay adequate tax and all will be better off.

[Innovindil]

Just now, ozleicester said:

Im quoting the 70s, because thats when the insane level of exploitation by the rich took off.

 

Thats when the corporates and millionaires conned us all that they were doing us a service by "providing" jobs and that governments handed over OUR business's to profiteers.

 

We are their slave labour paid the very least they can get away with.

 

Feel free to explain to me why a bank CEO should get paid 200 times as much as a the lowest paid in their business?

 

The business's wont go, instead, they will pay adequate tax and all will be better off.

Mate, businesses have been threatened with tariffs from brexit and every man and his dog are saying they will move to europe. What do you think a 20% rise in corporation tax will do? 

 

Surely, you can't be this naive. 

[Webbo]

18 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Beg pardon.. yup unemployment is only 50% more than it was in the 70s (even though if you only work a couple of hours a week you are considered employed etc etc.)

 

Got a graph about the corporate tax rates?

 

What's most important to you,making people better off or making corporations and wealthy individuals poorer?

[ozleicester]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

What's most important to you,making people better off or making corporations and wealthy individuals poorer?

 well if we can make the poor, the young, the average.. etc better off... AND, let the corporates stay wealthy.. im good with that!

 

But as weve seen for the past 40 years.. its one or the other.. right now... we are making the rich richer

[Webbo]

Just now, ozleicester said:

 well if we can make the poor, the young, the average.. etc better off... AND, let the corporates stay wealthy.. im good with that!

 

But as weve seen for the past 40 years.. its one or the other.. right now... we are making the rich richer

I think that graph proved the opposite. Peoples' living standards have risen massively since the early 80s when we abandoned the post war consensus and went for a more entrepreneurial society.