A New Political Movement or Uprising?

[Carl the Llama]

19 minutes ago, Webbo said:

You don't need to be a scientist to know if you borrow money you have to pay it back.If you borrow more and more each year eventually you're not going to be able to pay it back. Just look at Greece.

Greece's problem is more complex than that and was in large part caused by their administration's use of dodgy transactions to disguise their debt/deficit figures so they could join the Euro, putting them in a situation where they were no longer able to enact economic measures which could adequately respond to the problems caused by their real debt/deficit and newfound servitude to inflation/interest rates.

 

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

As you don't need to be a scientist to take a look and see how the Earth is changing (to use one example of many).

 

It just strikes me as rank hypocrisy (once again) where people adhere to economics as firm and settled science while dismissing possibly harder areas of science for their own reasons.

Especially when those same people have been telling us for years that you can't trust experts on the economy.

[yorkie1999]

41 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Well I believe in business in this country there used to be a pride in "a job done well" and that this was a shame important as making profit - possibly because these were family business with their names above the door, so quality mattered and that reflected in employment conditions.

 

These days, it's all about profit. People no the price of everything but the value of nothing. We're open all hours, work all hours, leaving ourselves no time to play. It's all disjointed. 

 

I accept the 9-5 has gone, but we need to move to position where 30-35 hours in a week can comfortably fund someone somewhere to live, food and a bit of enjoyment.  

As well as provide a bit in the kitty for a good pension to the oaps and a free nhs and free education up till 18, as well as provide a bit for all those unmarried mums with 6 kids and pay for our security forces police and firemen. Don't forget you're not just earning money for yourself in this ideal socialistic world we're all looking forward to.

[Webbo]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

As you don't need to be a scientist to take a look and see how the Earth is changing (to use one example of many).

 

It just strikes me as rank hypocrisy (once again) where people adhere to economics as firm and settled science while dismissing possibly harder areas of science for their own reasons.

If you don't pay back the money you owe nobody is going to lend you anymore, that's a fact whether global warming is happening or not.

[yorkie1999]

4 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

It makes me laugh that Jeremy Corbyn has got the poshest, conservative name going. I've certainly never met a working class person called 'Jeremy' before'.

 

So he's now known instead by his young disciples as "Jezza" cos it's well street init...

Jeremy used to be quite a popular normal name. Loads of kids had it in the 70's

[Samilktray]

6 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

It makes me laugh that Jeremy Corbyn has got the poshest, Tory boy names going. I've certainly never met a working class person called 'Jeremy' before'.

 

So he's now known instead by his young disciples as "Jezza" cos it's well street init...

You are a clown

[Izzy]

2 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Jeremy used to be quite a popular normal name. Loads of kids had it in the 70's

I was a kid in the 70's. Don't think I ever met another Jeremy in my time. Always figured it was a posh, establishment kind of name myself.

[Izzy]

2 minutes ago, Samilktray said:

You are a clown

No, just sharing the irony of it all really. Maybe the Tories should refer to May as ''Tezza" to appeal to younger voters..

[Strokes]

57 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Well I believe in business in this country there used to be a pride in "a job done well" and that this was a shame important as making profit - possibly because these were family business with their names above the door, so quality mattered and that reflected in employment conditions.

 

These days, it's all about profit. People no the price of everything but the value of nothing. We're open all hours, work all hours, leaving ourselves no time to play. It's all disjointed. 

 

I accept the 9-5 has gone, but we need to move to position where 30-35 hours in a week can comfortably fund someone somewhere to live, food and a bit of enjoyment.  

That's globalisation for you, living the dream.

[Alf Bentley]

After so many young people voted and saw that their votes had an impact on the election, they must have a real sense of power. That will be a new feeling for most. Hence a few going around singing Corbyn's name.

 

People feeling that they have some influence is a very positive thing, in principle. Particularly if many of their generation feel that they've been shat on from a great height by older generations who have enjoyed advantages unavailable to them (affordable housing, secure employment, free higher education etc.).

 

My concern is that this new feeling of power might come with unreasonable expectations among some Corbyn fans, particularly those with a flimsy grasp of politics. For that reason, this protest that McDonnell is calling for could be counter-productive if it is not well-managed. I don't believe that Corbyn or McDonnell would welcome a riot or are aiming to overthrow the government undemocratically. But I hope that demo is well-marshalled and feelings aren't whipped up too much. If the unions are heavily involved, they should have experience at marshaling protests. My concern would be of the event being infiltrated by trouble-makers (Class War or SWP types, or even the more extreme Momentum supporters) and other over-excitable people getting involved. If the atmosphere is too hyped and the event inadequately controlled, it could get unruly - and media coverage could alienate the swing voters Labour needs to win the next election....which might happen very soon.

 

Just as I hope that Labour don't stupidly allow a volatile atmosphere to get out of control, I hope the Tories don't cynically try to call an election for September. There are rumours circulating that they might, to take advantage of students not being at their place of study. We already have far too much inter-generational polarisation - and any cynical action like that would cause further divisions and could incite a disorderly response from the young.

 

It might seem unlikely that the Tories would want another election any time soon, as their support has surely declined further since the election, fueled by the lack of a government, doubts over the DUP alliance and anger over the response to the fire. But I wouldn't be so sure. I can't imagine they'd want to go into another election with May as leader, but the Tories have a history of being efficiently ruthless at knifing their leaders when they need to. Likewise, I don't see any reason why the proposed DUP alliance shouldn't be agreed in the short-term - both parties potentially stand to benefit. Also, David Davis is being more amenable than expected over the Brexit talks - maybe hoping to achieve some early progress, even via concessions.

 

I can imagine a scenario where the Tories agree their deal with the DUP, introduce a Queen's Speech that increases public spending, replace May with a new leader, achieve some progress over Brexit,(e.g. rights of EU citizens in UK & vice-versa)......and then call an election for September, when the students are scattered - and maybe after a minority have got out of control at McDonnell's rally.

 

At the moment, it looks likely that Labour could be in government within months, but that could change very quickly. The Tories have another reason for preferring an early election. They must know that they'll struggle to get a generous Brexit deal out of the EU and that the economy and living standards are set to go down, not up. They might be able to sustain a DUP alliance for a year or two, but might end up in a much worse situation electorally....

 

If Labour do end up in power any time soon, they'll have a massive job to do managing expectations. I didn't support cancelling tuition fees, but think they'd now have to legislate for it or risk a very angry backlash. Maybe some other expensive commitments (e.g. nationalisations apart from rail) could be put on the back burner. It would be crazy to crash and burn in government by spending too much, but they'd also have to be quite radical, because that is now the expectation. That's possible if they choose their radical battles strategically....but certainly not an easy task, particularly if they inherit an economy with declining living standards, firms departing for the continent, NHS staffing crisis etc. Brexit-induced problems ain't going away any time soon, barring some unlikely reversal of the decision to leave.

 

 

[The Blur]

1 hour ago, Captain... said:

This is is exactly the dismissive attitude that the Tories took during the election and it cost them. The promise of a new fairer society is a lot more appealing to young people than free stuff. If the right still hasn't woken up to that then the next election will be chastening.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

Free tuition fees, free social care, more free child care, big payrises in the public sector, trains magically getting better by being nationalised, of course that sounds appealing, trouble is it's all bullshit. Money doesn't grow on trees

 

I think you have just proved Captain's point.  He clearly stated that the promise of a fairer society is lot more appealing to the youth than free stuff but you chosen to focus on the money tree comment which is reflective of Tories' mentality for me.  They just seriously lack ability to connect with all of their electorate which is their downfall at the moment. If they do not change that soon then they will be even in deeper trouble than they are at the moment.  I voted Labour not because of their financial incentives but primarily because I am thoroughly appalled at Tories' ability to carry out their austerity policies and their overall ability to governance with all of their u-turns.  In fact I have hoped that when Corbyn got in the power,  he would quietly drop or delay some of his pledges in the manifesto as long he carries out some or most of them.  That is what every single governments have been doing anyway since they have got in the power.   

 

To be frank,  I know absolutely nothing about debts, GDP and budgeting but if May really cares about her country's future and believe that austerity is the way forward then she got to make some compromises.  For an example,  she could have maybe put brake on some of cuts on or to offer up some incentives for the society such as restoring tuition fees back to their previous levels around 2010. Sure, it may take but longer to clear the deficit but since Tories have a track record of missing their financial targets. that is nothing new then. 

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, Webbo said:

If you don't pay back the money you owe nobody is going to lend you anymore, that's a fact whether global warming is happening or not.

If countries don't change the way they handle energy production and generation there are going to be some big changes in the future, that's also a fact whether a country pays back what it owes or not.

 

Either the burden of proof for both has been met, or neither, as the academic data supporting both is equal.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

If countries don't change the way they handle energy production and generation there are going to be some big changes in the future, that's also a fact whether a country pays back what it owes or not.

 

Either the burden of proof for both has been met, or neither, as the academic data supporting both is equal.

You might be correct, but what's that got to do with giving away free stuff on borrowed money?

[Buce]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Who will they turn on when they realise he can't do 10% of what he says and as always, runs out of other people's money?

 

Revolutions never work out well for anyone except the leaders.

 

I have a feeling he'll get to be PM one day but it will collapse within months - every generation has to make and then learn from their mistakes when they go for idealism rather than realism, the youth now are no different.

 

Castro gave Cuba world class edication and health care, all free. 

 

2 hours ago, Webbo said:

2 Months ago everyone thought Corbyn was a joke and the tories were going to win a landslide. He promises middle class kids free tuition and all of a sudden he's the new messiah.

 

 

He's not the Messiah. 

 

He's a very naughty boy. 

[Webbo]

3 minutes ago, The Blur said:

 

 

I think you have just proved Captain's point.  He clearly stated that the promise of a fairer society is lot more appealing to the youth than free stuff but you chosen to focus on the money tree comment which is reflective of Tories' mentality for me.  They just seriously lack ability to connect with all of their electorate which is their downfall at the moment. If they do not change that soon then they will be even in deeper trouble than they are at the moment.  I voted Labour not because of their financial incentives but primarily because I am thoroughly appalled at Tories' ability to carry out their austerity policies and their overall ability to governance with all of their u-turns.  In fact I have hoped that when Corbyn got in the power,  he would quietly drop or delay some of his pledges in the manifesto as long he carries out some or most of them.  That is what every single governments have been doing anyway since they have got in the power.   

 

To be frank,  I know absolutely nothing about debts, GDP and budgeting but if May really cares about her country's future and believe that austerity is the way forward then she got to make some compromises.  For an example,  she could have maybe put brake on some of cuts on or to offer up some incentives for the society such as restoring tuition fees back to their previous levels around 2010. Sure, it may take but longer to clear the deficit but since Tories have a track record of missing their financial targets. that is nothing new then. 

Depends on your definition of fair. Making working class tax payers pay for middle class kids to go to university when those kids will earn more than them when they graduate doesn't seem that fair to me

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Castro gave Cuba world class edication and health care, all free. 

 

 

Hands up who'd rather live in Cuba than here?

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

You might be correct, but what's that got to do with giving away free stuff on borrowed money?

That some folks are perfectly willing to "see reality" and live in "the real world" in some areas where it suits them and not in others where it doesn't.

 

That lack of consistency should be highlighted.

[Buce]

Just now, Webbo said:

Hands up who'd rather live in Cuba than here?

 

Do you miss the point on purpose?

[ScouseFox]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

Hands up who'd rather live in Cuba than here?

pick me pick me 

[Carl the Llama]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

Hands up who'd rather live in Cuba than here?

[The Blur]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Depends on your definition of fair. Making working class tax payers pay for middle class kids to go to university when those kids will earn more than them when they graduate doesn't seem that fair to me

 

Likewise scrapping nursing or social work bursaries that may disincentive working class kids from going to universities.  That is why I suggested a compromise aka returning tuition fees to their previous levels to 2010 which is fairer for all electorate concerned.  I was against scrapping tuition fees even that I have just graduated last year with a postgraduate degree.  

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

Do you miss the point on purpose?

Free education, free health care, rampant poverty and oppression. Doesn't seem that great to me.

[Webbo]

Just now, Carl the Llama said:

I wish I could arrange that for you, you'd be a tory in weeks.

[ScouseFox]

rather be in cuba be poor and nobody give a shit then die than do all of that here 

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, ScouseFox said:

rather be in cuba be poor and nobody give a shit then die than do all of that here 

Admittedly it's probably better than Liverpool.

[Carl the Llama]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

I wish I could arrange that for you, you'd be a tory in weeks.

I mean yeah, put me in the middle of that much rum and I'm bound to do something stupid in the first couple of weeks, but I don't think I could ever get shitfaced enough to want to steal a person's house to pay for their dementia care.