ozleicester Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 3 minutes ago, Webbo said: I think that graph proved the opposite. Peoples' living standards have risen massively since the early 80s when we abandoned the post war consensus and went for a more entrepreneurial society. Tell that to the poor, the unemployed and those living in shitholes. If you could fund the NHS, improve Education, reduce unemployment and lift the very poor, help the homeless... would you be happy for the corporates to pay the same tax rates as you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 Just now, ozleicester said: Tell that to the poor, the unemployed and those living in shitholes. There were plenty of shitholers in the 70s. Life's not perfect, tell us something we don't know. Will your solution make things better? Most definitely no, it'll make things worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 Just now, Webbo said: There were plenty of shitholers in the 70s. Life's not perfect, tell us something we don't know. Will your solution make things better? Most definitely no, it'll make things worse. Most definitely no for the rich, most definitely yes for the poor and un(der)employed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 Just now, ozleicester said: Most definitely no for the rich, most definitely yes for the poor and un(der)employed. Tell that to the people of Venezuela. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 2 minutes ago, Webbo said: What's most important to you,making people better off or making corporations and wealthy individuals poorer? It is fair wealth distribution, that is all people want. Large profitable businesses make their money off the people they should be giving more back, either in fair wages, lower prices, or higher taxes on profits. At the moment too much money is being lost from our economy because of individuals and businesses moving money out of our economy and keeping it in tax havens. Free market economic principles are no longer working because we don't have a closed economy. Nobody is saying we need to punish big businesses but the capitalist model requires profit to be put back into the economy while the big businesses act as an economy drain this isn't happening and the impact will hit the worse off harder. The options are government regulation and higher taxes or just writing off the poorest 10%. All most people want is a fair system of taxation that allows people to earn a living wage and not rely on food banks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 1 hour ago, Thracian said: The more people in a place the more poverty in general and especially where the unfrastructure can't cope which is so obviously the situation today. As for the NHS it's a wasteful cash cow and some of its costs beyond defending. These just relate to the medical and legal side. You could doubtless unearth more examples relating to high maintenance costs and such things as the cost of locums. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1350257/Now-NHS-pays-1-000-bottle-salt-water.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3711703/NHS-spends-87m-paracetamol-20-TIMES-high-street-cost-Doctors-wrote-22-9m-prescriptions-year-average-cost-3-83-each.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4509388/Why-simple-sorry-save-NHS-millions.html Working in the nhs and seeing the activity to reduce waste i think you need to recognise that the issue is quite naunced. Individual trusts are doing everything they can to save every penny which is taking us close to a position that healthcare may become unsafe. Where there is waste is through the rules they have to work within - procurement rules that end up costing more than they really need to for example. These rules are dictated at national level and it us a direct government failure that ar ground level there are no more cuts to be found but the wasteful framework remains in place. We still pay considerably less as a proportion of gdp on health that the major european economies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 17 June 2017 Author Share Posted 17 June 2017 Scroll down to Ismael Blagrove's video talking to sky reporters.... https://www.facebook.com/thedeepleft/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE&fref=nf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionator Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 16 minutes ago, Innovindil said: Okay, I agree completely it shouldn't be allowed to thrive here. How would you stop it? I think better more thoughtful foreign policy is a starting point although not the complete solution. I'd remove from the streets anybody who is seen to be promoting extremist violence and I'd make sure that the schools in these area's are funded better, the living standards are improved and the community opportunities (we can utilise sport & the arts a lot better than we do) are made more accesible. Unfortunately not everyone is going to comply and there'll be exceptions but reducing the number of extremist's will make it easier to police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopfkino Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 5 minutes ago, Webbo said: I think that graph proved the opposite. Peoples' living standards have risen massively since the early 80s when we abandoned the post war consensus and went for a more entrepreneurial society. "Yes, he would rather have the poor poorer, provided that the rich were less rich" But then socialism is the ideology that proceeds to tell us greed is okay when its them taking money off people and simultaneously bemoans people for being greedy by wanting to keep the money they earn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 Inequality gap between rich and poor in UK to be at biggest since Margaret Thatcher was in power The poorest households will see their income fall by 2% - whereas the richest will see a mammoth 5% rise Edit.... its not just wealth... Lifespan gap 'widening between rich and poor' Why does ANYONE (excluding the super rich) not find this offensive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 1 minute ago, ozleicester said: yep coz all poor people are Alcoholics and Drug addicts. ... I agree with the compulsory retirement.... (i also think you shouldnt be able to vote after age 65) Oh i see the young and poor are also lazy... If we make "working" a viable option, we can rebuild manufacture, if we pay people fairly and employ them, they wont need to buy cheap stuff. I think you're stereotyping manufacturing with 1950's Britain. It no longer works like that. You can build a factory and almost completely automate it with robots, it's called technology, but it costs money, that's why the accountants have steadily been shifting manufacturing to places like china and thailand, they have the advantage of masses of people who will work for next to nothing. Would you work for a pound a day making socks in Leicester? doubt it. So wheres the incentive, apart from getting rid of dole money and forcing an every man for himself situation. Where i think the change in this country came was shutting down the mining, rail and steel industries, big industries that employed 100s of thousands as well as the knock on industries employing millions. Although these industries lost money, they provided work for less educated school leavers to be able to earn money, buy a house and bring up a family, your so called working class, as well as providing their own education facilities for more academic people. That's where the big social mistake was made and it fvcked this country up, what we're left with is older people living off the fruits of that period, young people who seem to want to stay at "uni" studying a pointless subject that's going to be of no benefit to themselves in the future i.e. what actual use is a degree in politics, where is the actual academic achievement and benefit to society in that? A bunch in the middle living off credit that they're hoping will vanish one day because of a financial meltdown and millions living on the dole knocking out kids like there's no tomorrow so they can manipulate a system that was put in place for genuinely poor people. Whatever anybody says, i believe That tory government destroyed this country as an independent nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 17 June 2017 Author Share Posted 17 June 2017 This guy is pretty special ? https://en-gb.facebook.com/thedeepleft/videos/649061075299366/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 17 June 2017 Author Share Posted 17 June 2017 Apologies for the language in this but it demonstrates the spirit of the thread and what I'm noticing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 17 June 2017 Author Share Posted 17 June 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 36 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: Apologies for the language in this but it demonstrates the spirit of the thread and what I'm noticing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxxed Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 The best analysis of the election - and therefore a new political movement - I've read comes from the FT. https://www.ft.com/content/dac3a3b2-4ad7-11e7-919a-1e14ce4af89b They're saying in Labour area which voted leave there was indeed a swing to the Tories. And the ukip collapse did benefit the Tories much, much more. And Ukip was a gateway drug from Labour to Ukip to the Tories. The FT also looked at health. Healthy people voted for Macron apparently. And ill people voted for Trump. Over here, the worse health people are in, the more they vote conservative. And the worse health there in the poorer they normally are: the much touted increase in Tory working class appeal. Poor areas are still voting Labour but there is a change, and more so when people report they're in ill health: the FT suspects illness equals grumpiness equals a socially conservative outlook. Thirdly, even taking in account for age, university educated areas are more likely to swing towards Labour. They do say this though: "Interestingly, though, the role of education is reversed after adjusting for a set of other key demographic and social factors. Once “Labour Leavers”, health and the percentage of people without a passport are accounted for, higher levels of education are actually associated with a higher swing to the Conservatives." I'm not sure what "adjusting for" means in this context. Within the group you have those in ill health which vote Tory apparently, and "Labour leaves" which I assume are more likely Tory voters, and those without a passport are statistically more likely to be Brexiters, and so if you remove them you get more of an educated swing towards the Tories? Surely they mean add them in? It's either poorly written by them or poorly understood by me. They also mention the university educated thing may be a proxy for cosmopolitan and wealthy more than education. The young definitely turned out for Labour too. The elderly still turnout in greater numbers. And vote Tory generally. And there's more of them, but it's still impressive. "But in the last seven years a yawning gap has opened up. In 2010, 18-to-24s broke just one point in favour of Labour, while over-65s favoured the Tories by 13 points. But in 2017 young voters broke in a landslide to Labour, backing Jeremy Corbyn’s party over the Tories by 51 points more than the national average. And polarisation is not just for the young: over-65s favoured Theresa May’s party by 35 points — 32 more than the average for the electorate. In just seven years the partisan age gap has shot up from 14 points to 83. Early figures this year suggest that young people turned out in force on Thursday. If they feel their efforts were rewarded, a simultaneous ramping up of youth engagement and age-based polarisation could create a heated political debate for years to come." It's crazy. Ex Ukip voters voted Tory. Labour leaves voted Tory. The working class started voting Tory. But still they lost seats and Labour won seats. Labour didn't win but their achievement is impressive regardless. The FT concludes that Labour did so well by picking up votes from across the spectrum. Is that the Corbyn appeal particularly amongst the young, or tactical voting, or a mixture? Can it be sustained? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 well said that man. He is right. Some social media can be bad but on the other side many social media blog sites are run or have contributions from lawyers, doctors, people working in housing, disabled people that once worked in top professionell jobs, carers teachers and many others who have had experience in those fields of work. Social media is the only way their voice is heard. What that bloke says in the video is true. It does seem like the MP's are not listening and they are ignored. How often do they visit and see what is going on? There are a lot of people sick to death with politicians. Not just the young. Now Corbyn has come along listened to them and then spoken for them giving them hope. That is the key word. Hope. They cannot see getting it with the present government as they have not been listened to or heard for at least seven years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 5 hours ago, ozleicester said: This time im not comprehending? We currently have a system that allows people to suffer and die in order to save money, A system that supports and encourages people who already have more money than they could ever need to exploit those with less. Good or bad people.... its the system that is wrong and unless we make a change people will be forced into suffering and early death forever. It isnt perfect, but then the King of capitalists has been destroying it for years, it still offers free health care, free education etc etc. If you have read anything about the US and what it has (and as of today thanks to your friend Trump) continues to do to Cuba you would realise that it was the capitalists outside the country that caused most of the problems. You can refer to them locking up people... but then you can look at Guantanamo, Abu Grhaid, and who knows how many renditions and tortures. Right now... the UK's financial problems could be solved by ensuring that the very rich paid tax appropriately and the nationalisation of industry a) It's not the system that's wrong at all. People have to apply the rules of the system and when they say sprinklers should be fitted that's what should happen or the problem should be mothballed and that wasn't practical with the tower block fire so it wasn't an option. . b) Nothing is free - it has to be paid for and no less education or health care. It may appear to be free but someone is picking up the tab and that money has to come i somehow unless we go irresponsible which somehow seems acceptable to some. c) I don't see nationalisation as necessarily being bad - though it sometimes is without any doubt - but Corbyn's idea of nationalising the railways, looks singularly flawed in our situation ... . https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/09/rail-nationalisation-jeremy-corbyns-stupid-flagship-policy/ https://iea.org.uk/blog/why-privatisation-always-trumps-nationalisation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 7 hours ago, ozleicester said: Unemployment rate 3.5 % in early 1970s Unemployment rate 7.0% end of the 80's (following the beginning of Thatcher "trickle down") Currently its still double what it was in the 70s The rich are paying less than ever Corporate tax in 1970 - 40% Corporate tax in 2017 - 19% Why on earth doesnt the UK have enough money?... oh wait its the dole bludgers and immigrants Any economy will only employ so many economically and the numbers is currently higher than ever. Overcrowd and you get chaos and inefficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 6 hours ago, ozleicester said: Tell that to the poor, the unemployed and those living in shitholes. If you could fund the NHS, improve Education, reduce unemployment and lift the very poor, help the homeless... would you be happy for the corporates to pay the same tax rates as you? I gave over plenty to the poor over several years. They're still poor because they're bone idle, spend their money on drugs, have no intention to stop breaking the law and can't be bothered to look after the kids they've now lost. You need a reality check. What have you given to the poor you supposedly champion? Or do you just advocate stealing off someone who desn't do drugs, works themselves to the bone and wants to enjoy the fruits of their efforts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 17 June 2017 Author Share Posted 17 June 2017 1 minute ago, Thracian said: I gave over £10,000 to the poor over several years. They're still poor because they're bone idle, spend their money on drugs and can't be bothered to look after the kids they've now lost. Yes. Philanthropy is an idiots game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 5 minutes ago, Thracian said: I gave over £10,000 to the poor over several years. They're still poor because they're bone idle, spend their money on drugs and can't be bothered to look after the kids they've now lost. You need a reality check. What have you given to the poor you supposedly champion? Or do you just advocate stealing off someone who desn't do drugs, works themselves to the bone and wants to enjoy the fruits of their efforts? You GAVE over ten grand.. wow i seriously applaud that. Can i ask how they used/misused it...how was this gift spent on drugs? I think that noone should be "working to the bone" i think that many many of the poor are decent human beings who would love to work but selfish greedy fvckers prevent them from doing so. Taxation is not stealing.. or perhaps you advocate that no one pay tax? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 1 hour ago, ozleicester said: You GAVE over ten grand.. wow i seriously applaud that. I think that noone should be "working to the bone" i think that many many of the poor are decent human beings who would love to work but selfish greedy fvckers prevent them from doing so. Taxation is not stealing.. or perhaps you advocate that no one pay tax? I don't see why any hard-working people should pay for wasters. As for the "decent human beings" you mention, I doubt you've met many you'd know well enough to call close friends. Yes, I still think that, deep down, many of them are "decent". But they've often had an appalling upbringing (and I mean appalling)333 , have been schooled in the art of getting something for nothing by way of theft, acting as "fences", fiddling the system in various, sometimes quite ingenious, ways, and countless other things. Anyone who talks of these people getting minimum benefits is naive beyond belief... they're into all sorts and more I still don't know about. It's them (the supposedly oppressed and unemployable) against us, and that's the truth, for all that their attitude can be understandable at times.. I still care because I honestly believe most have mental problems and have suffered desperately due to the culture and background in which they've grown up. May those who sanction the tackling of mental problems be blessed because there's no changing these people from what I see right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indeedy Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 23 hours ago, Webbo said: 2 Months ago everyone thought Corbyn was a joke and the tories were going to win a landslide. He promises middle class kids free tuition and all of a sudden he's the new messiah. yeh sure because it's really that simple. smfh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indeedy Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 Too much filthy tory sentiment in this thread for this socialist. I'm off to clean myself. Corbyn is integrity, Corbyn is truth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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